New Sniper Team, what ammo for LMT 308

j-huskey · Dec 12, 2023

That's good, I won't have to waste any more time answering your questions.

I'm OK with being on both your ignore list and your shit list, it's inconsequential...

MikeMiller · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
You've graduated to my ignore list. I just can't take you serious. Between the contradictory statements in red, putting words in my mouth in blue, your overall condescending manner towards me, and all brought upon by mere question on cartridge use. Yeah, you are a hot mess.

Brother you’re making a huge mistake. I have known Huskey for over twenty years. He is a wealth of real knowledge

hlee · Dec 12, 2023

MikeMiller said:
Brother you’re making a huge mistake. I have known Huskey for over twenty years. He is a wealth of real knowledge

Sure, but that knowledge conflicts with his preconceptions.

j-huskey · Dec 12, 2023

Sam Clemens, long b4 we were born, articulated what 98% of the readership would say after reading some of the drivel we've seen, and Will Rogers was lucky to pass on when he did, just sayin...

FredHammer · Dec 12, 2023

MikeMiller said:
Brother you’re making a huge mistake. I have known Huskey for over twenty years. He is a wealth of real knowledge

He certainly didn't display or deliver that knowledge very well to me. You saw how it was going.

Evolution 9 · Dec 12, 2023

He was doing just fine.

And his statements weren’t contradictory.

And taken in the context of the discussion, he didn’t put words in your mouth.

Putting him
On ignore won’t fix the problem.

j-huskey · Dec 12, 2023

There are many who have issues dealing with gray areas in life, things must be black and white, and they struggle.
I have one very good friend who had to leave LE because he could not accept the gray areas and adapt to them, or appropriately exercise officer discretion. One example, a mentally ill woman considering suicide acting out is much different from an angry woman acting out in selfish anger. Both can be talked down given enough time, with better feelings toward authority "generally" after.
Harsh treatment, arrest, with necessary roughness, is an option, sometimes needed, however the after feelings can be negative and damaging, for instance, the mentally ill woman hangs herself in jail... the selfish angry woman hangs the jury in an officer dead capital murder case...
The handling of each call under b/w only, break the law, go to jail.... or gray, get the mentally ill woman into some immediate treatment no matter how hard she slapped you, and tolerate a bit of anger from the other b4 it's time to end the encounter for the good of all, she may see the light and gratefully accept not being arrested when she complies with "stop that behavior" ("shut the f up or u going to jail...")... or she escalates until jail is the only option.

LE Sniping has no absolute black and white, each incident is different in multiple ways , except, the sniper might have to use appropriate deadly force to save a life.... might....
The distance can range from 3 feet, in a bathroom from the hallway, to the 500+ yards at the Washington monument, and the proper tool for the job might not be the same in all cases.
And there begins the first compromise gray area, which weapon and ammunition will best meet the perceived needs.... and the needs are determined by .....
Sometimes the best professionals in the business, and sometimes by the worst idiots who never should have been allowed to be in a position to make those choices.
In both cases, the LE sniper must have the ability, training, and some experience in making the correct gray area choice that will "stand the test of time" when scrutinized by the forces that gather afterwards.
Because every sniper call out is different, based on the difference in the defendant person involved, the threat level involved, the threat reduction difficulty, the quality of training, equipment, and cognitive level of the LE responders, there is no black and white solution the same in every single case.

And to some, the solutions might seem contradictory. To those like my no longer LE friend, some of the solutions will never be understood or accepted by them. And he did the right thing removing himself from LE.
I have had many a difficult discussion with him listening to his side and pointing out that the grand jury found no unlawful behavior by LE, the local petit jury found no damages warranted civilly, and the fed level jury also found no wrongdoing and there was no award against LE...
He still thinks it was wrong, and no explanation, to include the best forensic presentation that convinced all the juries, will sway him.
Some of our discussions have ended with him saying to me, "you think I'm an idiot", and I reply, "No, I think you are a GD f'ng retarded idiot whose mom should have drowned you 2 minutes after you squalled after the doc slapped your dumbfuck ass..." .
Then we go eat lunch, sometimes I buy, sometimes he does. It is what it is...

He also has trouble with "Everything is the same but different but the same, Everything is different but the same but different..." and, "there is nothing new in the universe that man has not done b4."

Terry Cross · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
He certainly didn't display or deliver that knowledge very well to me. You saw how it was going.

No offense, but he was never obliged to reply to any of your questions in the first place, let alone trying to deliver it in a manner that suits you at the moment.

Like most, he does not take much time out of his work schedule to monitor and post, much less reply to questions in this forum.
He doesn't post much, but when he does it is legit and spoken from a first hand experience perspective. His experience is not limited to his city, his state or even this country. He does not deal in hearsay, rumors or what is popular. Just the facts ma'am.

You popping an attitude because his posts do not suit your mood, is yet another example of you having no clue who you are conversing with and at the same time trying to critique information that is not in your lane.

If my reply in this post comes across as snippity, my hope is that you would include me in your "ignore" list.
That way he nor I would have to wade through your questions and pontifications in order to find pertinent dialog here.

./

MikeMiller · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
He certainly didn't display or deliver that knowledge very well to me. You saw how it was going.

Well you have ticked off two guys I listen to on every post they make and almost always agree with and/or learn from. But what would I know? I have only done this forty plus years and shot/won many national/international and world championship matches. These are my go to guys for knowledge above me Cross and Huskey

In short have you tried pm and being nice? They are great guys to know

j-huskey · Dec 12, 2023

Wasting his time on a PM to me. Please dont...

j-huskey · Dec 12, 2023

MikeMiller said:
Well you have ticked off two guys I listen to on every post they make and almost always agree with and/or learn from. But what would I know? I have only done this forty plus years and shot/won many national/international and world championship matches. These are my go to guys for knowledge above me Cross and Huskey

In short have you tried pm and being nice? They are great guys to know

And Mike, I'm gonna listen to you, TC, Dave, bc yall have knowledge and experience ill never have, I'm glad beyond words that yall share.
I even listen to Fred and sift, bc you can never stop learning, if you stop, u dead, or getting useless.
You can learn from the most ignorant yes, so, listen to them all. What we choose to use is up to us. Just sayin...

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 12, 2023

Not a sniper never was. Not a cop never was so my only contribution would be if you decide to stick with the LMT MWS and want to suppress it, Look into a BRT gas tube. Especially if you want to run 100% suppressed, it will fix your over gas issues and make the MWS into what it SHOULD be from the factory. Its a damn near required mod for any MWS as they are overgassed to hell from the factory, even for adverse conditions/weak ammo. A 16" suppressed SWS with a red dot offset would be a great all around system that could also be used as a patrol rifle if needed. Kills 2 birds with one stone, especially if they won't budget the correct tools for you.

Black River Tactical Store - Shop BRT

Shop BRT Black River Tactical Store Covert Comp OPTIMUM EZTUNE Gas Tube MicroTUNE Gas Block CustomTUNE Gas Port MicroPin Gas Block Mk12 Gas Tube BRT EXT BRT EXC BRT PDW Pistol Carbine Mid Midlength Rifle Upper Receiver Group Bolt Carrier Group Barrels Muzzle Devices Adjustable Gas Drive AR15 LMT

blackrivertactical.com

j-huskey · Dec 12, 2023

F'n starving mangy coyote in town, at 1120am, and I left the hushpuppy at home, not gonna G19 his ass in this town, no, no, no, no....
Somebody's kitty might be in trouble here...
Shit...

Terry Cross · Dec 12, 2023

j-huskey said:
And Mike, I'm gonna listen to you, TC, Dave, bc yall have knowledge and experience ill never have, I'm glad beyond words that yall share.
I even listen to Fred and sift, bc you can never stop learning, if you stop, u dead, or getting useless.
You can learn from the most ignorant yes, so, listen to them all. What we choose to use is up to us. Just sayin...

Right on.
Sometimes the teacher, always the student......
I hope I am never complacent. I hope I always question what I think I know and what comes out of my pie hole. I hope I always have an open mind to adapt and learn rather than clinging to something simply because I've always done it that way.
There is no ceiling to our art.

.

MikeMiller · Dec 12, 2023

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Not a sniper never was. Not a cop never was so my only contribution would be if you decide to stick with the LMT MWS and want to suppress it, Look into a BRT gas tube. Especially if you want to run 100% suppressed, it will fix your over gas issues and make the MWS into what it SHOULD be from the factory. Its a damn near required mod for any MWS as they are overgassed to hell from the factory, even for adverse conditions/weak ammo. A 16" suppressed SWS with a red dot offset would be a great all around system that could also be used as a patrol rifle if needed. Kills 2 birds with one stone, especially if they won't budget the correct tools for you.

Black River Tactical Store - Shop BRT

Shop BRT Black River Tactical Store Covert Comp OPTIMUM EZTUNE Gas Tube MicroTUNE Gas Block CustomTUNE Gas Port MicroPin Gas Block Mk12 Gas Tube BRT EXT BRT EXC BRT PDW Pistol Carbine Mid Midlength Rifle Upper Receiver Group Bolt Carrier Group Barrels Muzzle Devices Adjustable Gas Drive AR15 LMT

blackrivertactical.com

Same thing with my LaRue OBR. I shoot it on suppressed setting all the time. Way over gassed as well.

GhostFace · Dec 12, 2023

My how has this board has changed over the years, people ask for advice or questions. When they get answered by those who have been there and done that it quickly turns into a shit show. It started about the same time as the threads about AKs, SBRs etc…. Started appearing in this section. Not smart or attentive enough to see this is a precision oriented board and not all semis are precision tools.

This thread needs to go into the other section if OP has the credentials. If left here it’s going to muddied up by the kiddies in the room…..

FredHammer · Dec 12, 2023

MikeMiller said:
Well you have ticked off two guys I listen to on every post they make and almost always agree with and/or learn from. But what would I know? I have only done this forty plus years and shot/won many national/international and world championship matches. These are my go to guys for knowledge above me Cross and Huskey

In short have you tried pm and being nice? They are great guys to know

Well one decided my question to trivial, and the other just wanted to big dick, condescend, and paint pictures that don't reflect reality. No big surprise in the super alpha tactical, and especially the tactical training community. Win some and loose some.

YOU, RIO and Sinister provided information that I think answered the most in regards to the contingencies between open air and barrier penetration, especially glass of various types. Our guys always used 168 FGMM in 308 WIN. Didn't get too deep in the weeds about it all because I wasn't an LE sniper, but performed a multitude of other roles in critical incidents necessitating specialized assets. So, now that my lifetime of service to the country and community is over, my analytical tactical mind thinks of shit like, "Man those PRS guns with the weight and precision for an under 100yd shot, due to low recoil shooting 77SMK...a dude could shoot a gnats ass off a cunt hair!" Another tool in the toolbox rationale.

Fuck it, I know a guy that will lend his junk titled vehicles from his tow/wrecker service for the boys to conduct some experiments on auto glass penetration. .223 through 300WM. Our conclusions can support or deny the established science based results. It will be fun.

FredHammer · Dec 12, 2023

GhostFace said:
My how has this board has changed over the years, people ask for advice or questions. When they get answered by those who have been there and done that it quickly turns into a shit show. It started about the same time as the threads about AKs, SBRs etc…. Started appearing in this section. Not smart or attentive enough to see this is a precision oriented board and not all semis are precision tools.

This thread needs to go into the other section if OP has the credentials. If left here it’s going to muddied up by the kiddies in the room…..

Happens with lack of ego suspension, failure to critically think, or fail to articulate civil responses.
Didn't know I had to genuflect to online posters to get answers either!

sinister · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
... I know a guy that will lend his junk titled vehicles from his tow/wrecker service for the boys to conduct some experiments on auto glass penetration. .223 through 300WM. Our conclusions can support or deny the established science based results. It will be fun.

One should never take advice or recommendations as absolute.

Scientific Method. If you doubt it (even a little), try to duplicate it -- if nothing else, just for first-person, "I seent it," "I did it," or "Bullshit -- it's nothing like what that jackass claims."

FredHammer · Dec 12, 2023

sinister said:
One should never take advice or recommendations as absolute.

Scientific Method. If you doubt it (even a little), try to duplicate it -- if nothing else, just for first-person, "I seent it," "I did it," or "Bullshit -- it's nothing like what that jackass claims."

That is the super contrast between the "tactical sciences" and real fucking scientists that ascribe to the Scientific Method. Those egg heads love for others, called peer reviews, to poke holes in their experiments, conclusions, etc. This creates further experimentation and professionally unbiased discourse to advance a particular topic. When things get advanced the Hypothesis becomes a theory as it is generally accepted by the scientific community through scholarly articles also peer reviewed. When things get really damned serious that theory becomes a "law". I get the impression you know this, so preaching to choir, or what some would call "pontificating"

Terry Cross · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
Well one decided my question to trivial.....

. Didn't get too deep in the weeds about it all because I wasn't an LE sniper, but performed a multitude of other roles in critical incidents necessitating specialized assets. So, now that my lifetime of service to the country and community is over, my analytical tactical mind thinks of shit like,

Pretty sure you are referring to me not answering your question about .223 use when I replied "Seriously?" in Post #60 of this thread.
Yes?

Question for you.....
In your lifetime of service to the country and community and your multiple roles in critical incidents, did your analytical tactical mind ever once consider that not every topic is kosher to hash out in public?

Even once?

Ever?

You may be absolutely trustworthy.
Most of the members here are likely trustworthy.
However, this is an open forum that is publicly accessed by anyone that wants to visit and learn. While a lot of what we do is not necessarily "top secret" high speed information, it would make sense to most adults that we should not just puke out information that could be used by someone intent on harming someone else.

That is why some of us choose to keep some information in a narrower lane of sharing to minimize general proliferation.
If that makes me appear that I judge your question as trivial, so be it. I'm not being elitist, I'm just trying to be responsible.

You demanding information doesn't obligate me to give it to you.

My lack of a response to your question was not because I thought it or you were trivial.
My lack of a response was because I thought it was inappropriate to do so. You didn't take the hint.

Can someone test enough ammo and barrier medium to make their own determination of effectiveness?
Can someone dig through internet forums and find the answers (or simply opinions posed as answers) to similar questions?
Yes to all the above.

I'm just not going to be the one to be irresponsible on an open forum. Right or wrong in your eyes, that was my decision to make and you took it personally.

In some people's eyes I likely have already have crossed a line.

You are posting enough on this forum that most can get a pretty good read on your character traits.
100% probability you are yet again going to twist this post into something it is not.

.

MikeMiller · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
Well one decided my question to trivial, and the other just wanted to big dick, condescend, and paint pictures that don't reflect reality. No big surprise in the super alpha tactical, and especially the tactical training community. Win some and loose some.

YOU, RIO and Sinister provided information that I think answered the most in regards to the contingencies between open air and barrier penetration, especially glass of various types. Our guys always used 168 FGMM in 308 WIN. Didn't get too deep in the weeds about it all because I wasn't an LE sniper, but performed a multitude of other roles in critical incidents necessitating specialized assets. So, now that my lifetime of service to the country and community is over, my analytical tactical mind thinks of shit like, "Man those PRS guns with the weight and precision for an under 100yd shot, due to low recoil shooting 77SMK...a dude could shoot a gnats ass off a cunt hair!" Another tool in the toolbox rationale.

Fuck it, I know a guy that will lend his junk titled vehicles from his tow/wrecker service for the boys to conduct some experiments on auto glass penetration. .223 through 300WM. Our conclusions can support or deny the established science based results. It will be fun.

I give. Your tests you suggest we’re done decades ago and about every year since.

I find it hard to believe you were involved in LE in any sworn capacity

LeftyJason · Dec 12, 2023

FredHammer said:
I get a feeling you boys are in for a good ol FredHammer roast. Send the all call to your fellow goblins to garbage post for a few pages, I'll turn the tables on the bullshit, hurt some feelings of self extolled posters, and then I'll get banned. Yup. Fuck it. Why not.

As far as the tests, look what happened to 9mm. 10yrs ago there were departments that wouldn't even allow the cartridge. Then I guess people asked questions, there were advancements in bullet technology and now it's all the rage in terminal ballistics. I guess the 45CP "no replacement for displacement" didn't stand to the whizbang 9mm. Damn, hope I didn't violate OPSEC!

Take a look at this thread in regards to my opinions on the Uvalde goat fuck. Tell me what I say isn't from BTDT experience.

Uvalde

One memory that will always be with me.

www.snipershide.com

Can you image this attack on character by merely posing a question about using a 5.56 to shoot a suspect in the head at 55yds? SH. Got to love it!

First of all this isn't the Bear Pit. These guys are being nice because of that.

Don't mess up this thread. There are those of us that like to hear the scraps of what we can get from those that know.

The original question was dumb. Hence the responses you got. Triple the bullet weight makes a big difference. Square cube law applies all over the place.

aika · Dec 12, 2023

I chose 150 grain Gold Dots for the best compromise of barrier blind and without. For long range, it may not be the answer. For my purposes, that and TAP.

j-huskey · Dec 13, 2023

LeftyJason said:
The original question was dumb. Hence the responses you got. Triple the bullet weight makes a big difference. Square cube law applies all over the place.

Fred reads from outer edge of web ban now for however many days... so, his ignore button won't work on me for now.
My prius comment vs 223 is , well, some of us know Dallas used a 50 to stop a vehicle.
My comment on 223 and glass is countered by Portland using a 338 Lapua.
Both heavy weapons were the only option in those cases, and handicapping a sniper with a 223 or fast light super accurate PRS platform isn't the answer to sniper needs.
As to a sniper using a 223 50-55-62 grain for open air shots, ok. Our patrol officers with a patrol rifle would be first in line to handle this AND there are a number of recorded incidents with a 223 that stopped the subject. My dept has contributed to that record...
My entry team members with 11.5" suppressed 223 are trained and deadly to 200 yards, with around half the team demonstrating head hit accuracy in training.
That's definitely not for everybody, they didn't get that good from the average level of US LE training. Not everybody has the options for training that some of us have.
And that's a shame bc the people/citizens deserve better, however, the citizens get what their elected politicians give them. That's a rant on my part....pols give us .....
It's bad when mild sarcasm can be taken as condescending, and it's bad when an answer is broken down to the simplest terms so the dumbest rock can understand it, and is taken for condescending.
One learns to simplify for the rock testifying in court and teaching open classes. Is what it is.

Fred took offense. Fred "took" offense, rather than water off a ducks back. He chose to take offense, didn't have to. That's on him. Choose your poison.
Not my problem or concern, until the callout, and negotiations fail, then, if my partner is faster than me, still not my concern.

My wife read the comments and compared the responses to the liberal pantywaist shit she sees on X, sed somebody needed big boy panties and not to play in the sand box if their mangina was so sensitive.

Such is life.

hlee · Dec 13, 2023

j-huskey said:
Fred reads from outer edge of web ban now for however many days...

Not his first ban for being himself. Probably won’t be his last. Thanks for breaking what you can down for us rocks looking in.

j-huskey · Dec 13, 2023

hlee said:
Not his first ban for being himself. Probably won’t be his last. Thanks for breaking what you can down for us rocks looking in.

U ain't a rock... by any means.

Fred's not either,
A little work on delivery and presentation, Fred could contribute without being banned. His comments in Uvalde are worth reading.
Wait, ....
Did I just take up for Fred....
Doc, Doooooocccccc......
Where's my meds... Doc !!!

Wmg160357 · Dec 14, 2023

Make sure you test performance of whatever you pick through different types of glass and other barriers, we carried and had zeros for federal tac bonded 165 and fed m2 175 depending on situation,

BurtG · Oct 2, 2024

pmclaine said:
Sounds like the terminal ballistics were fine.

What are people thinking? Unless their round hits and does this....

Meh. I’ve shot a few things.

Otm /fmj doesn’t compare to tipped rounds. It’s night and day different. It’s hard to over emphasize how different it is.

BurtG · Oct 2, 2024

Terry Cross said:
you look at the 168 in T308T side by side with Sierra's branded TMK, you can spot the difference even with your basic Mk1 Mod0 eyeba

Interesting. I was wondering why the BC wasn’t as good and they didn’t look as aerodynamic as the elds

Good info

Seems that “fatter” bullet may be more terminally effective

Terry Cross · Oct 3, 2024

BurtG said:
Interesting. I was wondering why the BC wasn’t as good and they didn’t look as aerodynamic as the elds

Since this thread got revived I figured I would add what is hopefully a little more clarification to my post #57 above.

You probably already have all this figured out but I pulled some bullets from ammo this morning to hopefully give everybody a better visual.

The ogive of the original SMK 168gr BTHP is the secret sauce. It is very forgiving across a large variation of chambers and throats. Pretty sure nobody has to dig deep to see its history as the benchmark for consistency and accuracy.

When Sierra introduced their first .30 cal. tipped bullets several years ago, they were under a good bit of pressure from the shooting community to improve their BCs to at least pretend to keep up with Berger. They bent to the pressure and changed the ogive of the new tipped match bullets to more of a secant style to bump up the BC and branded them Tipped Match Kings / TMK.

It did increase the BC but at the cost of having a less forgiving bullet.
Everybody that has purchased TMKs to reload since they were introduced has noticed that they are definitely harder work up accurate ammo with compared to the original SMKs.
Today's current TMKs still have that new secant ogive style whether you buy them as components to reload or purchase factory ammo with them.

The image below shows an original SMK BTHP next to the TMK

If you concentrate on the shape forward of the bearing surface on both, you can see the difference in profile. It doesn't look like a big deal but it surely does make a difference in how the bullets enter the throat consistently without being picky about "jump".

When Federal decided to move on the T308T project, they knew they wanted a bullet that was tailored for consistent terminal performance on soft tissue. They mandated that the bullet retain the original Sierra MK ogive and also a hard polymer tip to assist with feeding reliability especially in semi-autos. Sierra sells a butt load of bullets to Federal so it was not a big deal for them to agree to make an SKU specific bullet for the new loading. They produced the bullets for Federal but as far as I am aware, Sierra does not offer this bullet in component form for reloaders to purchase.

The image below shows an original SMK BTHP next to the new bullet made for the T308T.

You can see that they retained the same ogive.

Since Sierra had already named their polymer tipped bullets TMK and TGK, Federal elected to call the bullet Tactical Tip to avoid any confusion.

I find it ironic that the newer Tactical Tip made for Federal is actually more of a true "Tipped Match King" than Sierra's own TMK of the same name.

As a final comparison, the image below shows in order L to R: Hornady ELD TAP, Federal/Sierra Tactical Tip, Sierra MK BTHP, Sierra TMK

**The green tipped TMK is a 175gr. All other bullets are 168gr.
I couldn't lay hands on any 168gr TMK at the shop but I know the ogive is identical between the 168 and 175, so it should be a valid visual comparison for purposes of this post.

BurtG said:
Seems that “fatter” bullet may be more terminally effective

I'm not sure the shape of the bullet had anything meaningful to the terminal performance.
From what I've been told and seen it has more to do with manipulating jacket thickness, lead core hardness and bonded vs non-bonded.

BurtG · Oct 3, 2024

Just to further muddle this thread. I was thinking of 65 not 308

Looks fatter less sleek. To me.

Hornady is the best factory ammo out there.

Terry Cross · Oct 3, 2024

BurtG said:
Just to further muddle this thread. I was thinking of 65 not 308

View attachment 8516588

Looks fatter less sleek. To me.

LOL.
Well fuck me.
I don't think anybody waded into the 6.5 end of the pool prior.

Same thing applies. That blue tipped 6.5 that is tagged as Tactical Tip follows the lines of the Sierra 142gr BTHP while the 6.5 TMKs you buy to reload are a little different.

BurtG said:
Hornady is the best factory ammo out there.

I highly recommend you buy all the Hornady you can! It's the bomb!

BurtG · Oct 3, 2024

Always good info from you

Terry Cross · Oct 4, 2024

BurtG said:
Always good info from you

Go make something unalive with that T model stuff and post pics. I have to live vicariously through somebody that actually shoots shit anymore!

bfoosh006 · Oct 4, 2024

Terry Cross said:
Since this thread got revived I figured I would add what is hopefully a little more clarification to my post #57 above.

You probably already have all this figured out but I pulled some bullets from ammo this morning to hopefully give everybody a better visual.

The ogive of the original SMK 168gr BTHP is the secret sauce. It is very forgiving across a large variation of chambers and throats. Pretty sure nobody has to dig deep to see its history as the benchmark for consistency and accuracy.

When Sierra introduced their first .30 cal. tipped bullets several years ago, they were under a good bit of pressure from the shooting community to improve their BCs to at least pretend to keep up with Berger. They bent to the pressure and changed the ogive of the new tipped match bullets to more of a secant style to bump up the BC and branded them Tipped Match Kings / TMK.

It did increase the BC but at the cost of having a less forgiving bullet.
Everybody that has purchased TMKs to reload since they were introduced has noticed that they are definitely harder work up accurate ammo with compared to the original SMKs.
Today's current TMKs still have that new secant ogive style whether you buy them as components to reload or purchase factory ammo with them.

The image below shows an original SMK BTHP next to the TMK
View attachment 8516477

If you concentrate on the shape forward of the bearing surface on both, you can see the difference in profile. It doesn't look like a big deal but it surely does make a difference in how the bullets enter the throat consistently without being picky about "jump".

When Federal decided to move on the T308T project, they knew they wanted a bullet that was tailored for consistent terminal performance on soft tissue. They mandated that the bullet retain the original Sierra MK ogive and also a hard polymer tip to assist with feeding reliability especially in semi-autos. Sierra sells a butt load of bullets to Federal so it was not a big deal for them to agree to make an SKU specific bullet for the new loading. They produced the bullets for Federal but as far as I am aware, Sierra does not offer this bullet in component form for reloaders to purchase.

The image below shows an original SMK BTHP next to the new bullet made for the T308T.
View attachment 8516484
You can see that they retained the same ogive.

Since Sierra had already named their polymer tipped bullets TMK and TGK, Federal elected to call the bullet Tactical Tip to avoid any confusion.

I find it ironic that the newer Tactical Tip made for Federal is actually more of a true "Tipped Match King" than Sierra's own TMK of the same name.

As a final comparison, the image below shows in order L to R: Hornady ELD TAP, Federal/Sierra Tactical Tip, Sierra MK BTHP, Sierra TMK

View attachment 8516488
**The green tipped TMK is a 175gr. All other bullets are 168gr.
I couldn't lay hands on any 168gr TMK at the shop but I know the ogive is identical between the 168 and 175, so it should be a valid visual comparison for purposes of this post.

I'm not sure the shape of the bullet had anything meaningful to the terminal performance.
From what I've been told and seen it has more to do with manipulating jacket thickness, lead core hardness and bonded vs non-bonded.

Thank you for the info on the TTMK, I have always wondered about the "whys" of that bullet "line".
Any online info I could find lacked ANY meaningful answers.
And , as mentioned I have wondered for years... so I am now breathing a small sigh of mental relief, Lol.

Again, Thank You.

bfoosh006 · Oct 4, 2024

BurtG said:
Just to further muddle this thread. I was thinking of 65 not 308

View attachment 8516588

Looks fatter less sleek. To me.

Hornady is the best factory ammo out there.

And Thank you for sharing as well !

I bought a some of this 6.5CM from BFGC, any time I could afford some more.

WindstormSCR · Oct 4, 2024

Terry Cross said:
Go make something unalive with that T model stuff and post pics. I have to live vicariously through somebody that actually shoots shit anymore!

I have some 6.5 Terminal Ascent and Hornady Precision Hunter that I'll see if I can get on a "representative target" to compare burt's 6.5CM against. just need to visit a junkyard for some auto glass, and get a decent range day where I'll have some helping hands

Threads like this are always fun since there's so much to learn about terminal ballistics that isn't purely about hunting targets.

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