Weird question regarding FL sizing

_ACGuy_ · Sep 30, 2024

Not sure if this is just me and my guns but here is what I see after firing and resizing with a Redding Elite type S bushing die set.

I have 300 WM, .308win, 6.5cm and they all seem to fire a few times with neck sizing only then after the first 2 or 3 firings I would assume they would be my chamber size. So my 300 WM like 2.010 on my SAC comparator with a Mitutoyo caliper. I spray lube and I set my sizing die(on a Forrester CO-AX) until I get a 2.010 measurement(They are 2.014ish) when I start. I run 10 cases and I get 2.009, 2.006, 2.011, 2.012...

I cant for the life of me figure out why I get such a weird range of sizes with a fixed die in a decent press. I assume the cases arent all the same size when I start.

Below is my numbers from 50 rounds of PPU brass(I know its crap, It was factory ammo I bought for the brass when 300wm was hard to find). Its weird that the numbers get worse from min to max after sizing I would expect .0005 to .001 range after my process.

Any constructive thoughts would be appriciated. I know I need to invest in Lapua brass, I can't find any when I look locally.

Average
2.2140
SD
0.0006
Min
2.2125
Max
2.2145
ES
0.0020

Tokay444 · Sep 30, 2024

If I had to guess, I would say you're not annealing.

_ACGuy_ · Sep 30, 2024

I do anneal. I didn't mention that but I have a Burstfire II That I use.

Tokay444 · Sep 30, 2024

_ACGuy_ said:
I do anneal. I didn't mention that but I have a Burstfire II That I use.

Try increasing the dwell.

Harman117 · Sep 30, 2024

What press are you using?

Edit: Nevermind, I can't read

Cascade Hemi · Sep 30, 2024

Which jaws are in your CoAx press? What lube are you using? If you're using One Shot, are you letting it flash off completely?

_ACGuy_ · Sep 30, 2024

large jaws, homemade 99% alcohol w/Lanolin 11:1 ratio. Spray it in a metal pan. roll it a little wait 5 - 10 minutes. resize first case was set to resize to 2.210" with a SAC 300WM comparator.

These are the numbers I got a 47 case I just resized. 3 second dwell time also.

Average
2.2079
SD
0.0015
Min
2.2040
Max
2.2105
ES
0.0065 I would think if there was variance in the case length from shoulder datum to the base after three firings it would be negligible.(I anneal after ever de-prime, wet tumble, drying cycle). Its so weird to get so much variance. I made sure I used the forester lock ring and the die was tight. Its super frustrating. MY velocity ES was between 7 and 14 per every 5 shot group last weekend. That doesn't seem too bad. I am using an auto-trickler v4 currently so I know the powder charge was fairly consistent.

Cascade Hemi · Sep 30, 2024

I think it is the lube. Either it isn't being applied evenly or you aren't giving the alcohol enough time to evaporate. Possibly both. A good practice is to spray the brass in a gallon ziplock bag, shake the brass until evenly coated, and then dump the brass into a open box for 30 to 60 minutes. You may also want to clean out your dies and coat them inside with lanolin.

Make sure your brass is sitting against the shell plate without the jaws holding it up. The automatic jaws are known to cause case length and COAL variation.

Edsel · Sep 30, 2024

Personal observations, benefit in decreasing order for sizing (not so much for maximizing case longevity or neck splits):

1. Dwell Time (compress brass, count to ten) and / or Number of Compression Strokes (until the final stroke “feels the same as the one from prior brass”)

Hit your brass...

...and hit it again...

...hit it hard!

2. Consistent (and Generous) Amount of Lubricant

After #1, multiple strokes still exhibit resistance, so you reapply lube…

…only to feel how “loose” the brass actually is in your die.

Dwell Time and Number of Compression Strokes trumps Lubricant, but appropriate Lubricant makes the process so much easier.

3. Consistent Annealing, quantitatively calibrated (i.e. an AMP Induction Annealer)

Brass Springback...

...is fickle and highly variable. While using boutique brass and the above acrobatics minimizes such - the only true way to figure out what’s going on is by measuring each case. Can't rest one's laurels after making the assumption that one has "perfected a method," unless one chooses to excessively headspace brass to account for measurements on the upper end of the Range (or Extreme Spread, as shooters somehow choose to refer to it). Personal opinion - nothing beats this tool in the combination of consistency, ease of handling, accuracy / precision, and speed.

There are some other things you might encounter later, like Delayed Springback and the like… But that’s for another day.

EDIT: No idea why the picher came out so yuuuge.

Marine52 · Sep 30, 2024

the example you gave shows a .006 variation is shoulder bump. This is very high. The coax press is known for erratic shoulder bump especially if you are not getting a firm contact between the shell holder jaws and the die ( cam over). With the coax you cannot use the Redding comp shellholders so you normally don’t get camover unless you get lucky and your bump goal coincides with camover. I would try another press and get a firm die-to-shellholder contact with camover.

supercorndogs · Oct 1, 2024

I had the same problem I traced back to not letting the achohol evaporate. I don't use my lanolin alcohol mix unless I have 30 minutes or more to let the alcohol evaporate. I use one shot when I am in a hurry.

misser · Oct 1, 2024

_ACGuy_ said:
I do anneal. I didn't mention that but I have a Burstfire II That I use.

what numbers do you set to when using the Burstfire ?

salks · Oct 1, 2024

I would guess not annealing enough.

Supersubes · Oct 1, 2024

Marine52 said:
the example you gave shows a .006 variation is shoulder bump. This is very high. The coax press is known for erratic shoulder bump especially if you are not getting a firm contact between the shell holder jaws and the die ( cam over). With the coax you cannot use the Redding comp shellholders so you normally don’t get camover unless you get lucky and your bump goal coincides with camover. I would try another press and get a firm die-to-shellholder contact with camover.

You can convert the coax to take shell holders.

@_ACGuy_ As mentioned above, sort out the lubing situation. Ive never used that lube so I cant comment directly, but lube conditions do change inside the die through use. A clean freshly lubed die will size differently from a well seasoned crusty die.

Annealing may be playing a roll too.

Im a big fan of redding comp shell holders, and I converted my coax years ago to use them. Takes press deflection out of the equation entirely, and the coax, like every other press, has deflection.

supercorndogs · Oct 1, 2024

On 3x fired, 1x FL sized brass. I doubt annealing is playing much of factor.

bax · Oct 1, 2024

I think your annealing process isn't softening the the neck & shoulder. The brass is too hard and still elastic - you cannot get consistent permanent deformation hence inconsistent shoulder length.

I use a flame annealer. If I look into the brass when it leaves the flame, the entire inside neck glows - from the top of the neck to the bottom of the neck. The glow disappears after about a second. The templaq technique did not work for me, when templaq said it should be softened, it wasn't.

My process reduces shoulder length by 2.5 to 3 thou. When I size 308 brass (Lake City LR or Lapua), I get about 1.624 plus or minus 0.0005 with a maybe 3 or 4 out of a batch of 50 that are 1.623 or 1.625. I mandrel the necks. I have no gauge for neck tension but it seems consistent to me when using Wilson seaters.

About lubrication: I use either Lyman Quick Slick and OneShot and a hard-finish cotton bag that tire chains came in. I toss the brass into the bag, spray 3 or 4 seconds, close the bag, tumble the brass, pour it into a tray and start sizing. The bag has lubed probably 5,000 cases so it is well impregnated with lube, the new spray is just insurance. I rarely wait more than a minute or two before sizing, the cases are a little slick because the alcohol is not completely gone. This works for me. For those who have experienced lube issues, I believe you but I don't experience such issues. BTW, I never get lube dents and haven't stuck a case is years.

misser · Oct 1, 2024

supercorndogs said:
On 3x fired, 1x FL sized brass. I doubt annealing is playing much of factor.

I happen to know someone that did not anneal twice fired 270 brass . he managed to pull the ball off the stem trying to get it out of the brass . he's a newbie , learning the in's and out's of reloading

Supersubes · Oct 1, 2024

misser said:
I happen to know someone that did not anneal twice fired 270 brass . he managed to pull the ball off the stem trying to get it out of the brass . he's a newbie , learning the in's and out's of reloading

Without knowing the brass ID prior to the expander ball, that's a bad data point.

memilanuk · Oct 1, 2024

Supersubes said:
Without knowing the brass ID prior to the expander ball, that's a bad data point.

Yeah... considering that people have reloaded cases many more than just 2x for a lot of years long before annealing was even remotely common - and in the overall scheme of things, most reloaders still do - I would attribute zero credit to that particular anecdote.

FLIGHT762 · Oct 1, 2024

A very simple experiment would be to take a few fired cases and use some Synthetic Motor Oil as a lubricant. Put a thin layer of the oil your finger and apply it onto the case. Don't use too much or you will get shoulder dents. Run the cases through and check shoulder length. That might tell you if it is a lube issue.

I use the home made 99% alcohol / Lanolin for big jobs. If I'm doing 10-20 cases, I'll use synthetic motor oil. It works well as a sizing lube. Never have stuck a case with it.

misser · Oct 1, 2024

FLIGHT762 said:
A very simple experiment would be to take a few fired cases and use some Synthetic Motor Oil as a lubricant. Put a thin layer of the oil your finger and apply it onto the case. Don't use too much or you will get shoulder dents. Run the cases through and check shoulder length. That might tell you if it is a lube issue.

I use the home made 99% alcohol / Lanolin for big jobs. If I'm doing 10-20 cases, I'll use synthetic motor oil. It works well as a sizing lube. Never have stuck a case with it.

ya could maybe try

Imperial Redding Sizing Die Wax or an equivalent .I find I have to touch each case and it just so easy to use

bax · Oct 2, 2024

+ 1 for Imperial it is very good. When I was making bullets, I used a lube made from anhydrous lanolin and vaseline. The homemade stuff was very good for jackets but I didn't try it on brass. Using Imperial, in order to lube a case, you tap or slightly drag your finger over the lube in the tin then wipe or smear it onto the case - you just need a film, it is VERY slippery. One tin-touch will probably do two to four cases. I switched to spray because I don't like lubing my fingers; that is the ONLY thing I don't like about Imperial. I currently possess three tins, I will never run out.

FLIGHT762 · Oct 2, 2024

misser said:
ya could maybe try

Imperial Redding Sizing Die Wax or an equivalent .I find I have to touch each case and it just so easy to use

I also use Imperial wax.

I posted the Synthetic oil use for the O/P for just a test so he wouldn't have to run around and try to find a tin of Imperial or some other lube marketed for reloading. He might have some synthetic motor oil on hand at home, wouldn't cost him anything.

bax · Oct 2, 2024

Yup, I have quarts of synthetic oil and transmission fluid on my shelf. Synthetic motor oil and transmission fluid are the same as premium gun oil. I happen to like Imperial better than oils because it is less messy. The spray products are even less messy. When you adapt your process to the product, they all (mostly) work so it is (mostly) just preference.

aprocast · Oct 4, 2024

No one has mentioned lubing inside the necks, that is very important

markl323 · Oct 4, 2024

I would try the RCBS rock chucker. I don’t trust these “advance” type of presses where you can move the die around without unscrewing it.

Jesusisking · Nov 9, 2024

Any updates on a solution that worked? I'm having the exact same issue. I'm using Hornady dies imperial sizing lube, Lyman turret press 2 different presses with same results. I do anneal with bursstfire 2.

misser · Nov 9, 2024

aprocast said:
No one has mentioned lubing inside the necks, that is very important

maybe if ya don't a anneal

supercorndogs · Nov 10, 2024

If you're pulling an unlubed expander ball through necks when FL sizing. It will move the shoulder. Making sure the inside of the necks are well lubed will likely decrease the ES of your shoulder bump over a batch of brass. I would think the shoulder would resist movement better pushing a mandrel into the neck. I bet most lube their mandrel too though.

375fan · Nov 10, 2024

supercorndogs said:
If you're pulling an unlubed expander ball through necks when FL sizing. It will move the shoulder. Making sure the inside of the necks are well lubed will likely decrease the ES of your shoulder bump over a batch of brass. I would think the shoulder would resist movement better pushing a mandrel into the neck. I bet most lube their mandrel too though.

Good point.
Personally I switch all the expander balls to a much smaller size in my bushing dies. Maybe just my imagination but seating feels much more consistent to me after going this direction with sizing process. I anneal too. No need to lube inside of mouths. Brass isn't getting pulled in 2 different directions. I still use a RCBS case lube pad I've had forever.

918v · Nov 10, 2024

I use imperial sizing wax and a Co Ax with Redding competition shell holders and don’t get any bump variance, well maybe .001”.

Once I ran out and had to go with another lube and saw .004” variance. Lube matters. Mechanical set up matters. Dwell time matters.

BuildingConceptsllc · Nov 10, 2024

Jesusisking said:
Any updates on a solution that worked? I'm having the exact same issue. I'm using Hornady dies imperial sizing lube, Lyman turret press 2 different presses with same results. I do anneal with bursstfire 2.

I have one of those. I sanded the bushing to take out a tiny tiny bit of rock in it but I doubt that's your issue. Are you putting the same amount of lube each case? Do you have cam over? Did you clean your die out?

misser · Nov 10, 2024

supercorndogs said:
If you're pulling an unlubed expander ball through necks when FL sizing. It will move the shoulder. Making sure the inside of the necks are well lubed will likely decrease the ES of your shoulder bump over a batch of brass. I would think the shoulder would resist movement better pushing a mandrel into the neck. I bet most lube their mandrel too though.

? are you annealing?

JR1200W3 · Nov 10, 2024

misser said:
? are you annealing?

I anneal and if I don't lube the inside of the neck on a case before running it through a mandrel or an expander ball it will eventually gall. In fact, after annealing it's even more important to lube because the inside of the necks because they become dry and sticky from annealing. If you didn't anneal you could probably get away with a few more cases because the carbon left will provide some coincidental lubricity. But that's kind of an unintentional way of doing things. By lubing, you ensure each case experiences the same amount of drag or friction and that will give you more consistent results over a lot of brass.

FLIGHT762 · Nov 10, 2024

Jesusisking said:
Any updates on a solution that worked? I'm having the exact same issue. I'm using Hornady dies imperial sizing lube, Lyman turret press 2 different presses with same results. I do anneal with bursstfire 2.

O/P hasn't replied here since Sept. 30th.

JR1200W3 · Nov 10, 2024

FLIGHT762 said:
O/P hasn't replied here since Sept. 30th.

Like every thread on SH, the original purpose of the thread isn't required for people to argue, lol

Jesusisking · Nov 10, 2024

BuildingConceptsllc said:
I have one of those. I sanded the bushing to take out a tiny tiny bit of rock in it but I doubt that's your issue. Are you putting the same amount of lube each case? Do you have cam over? Did you clean your die out?

I do have cam over, I believe i use the same amount of lube on each case, yes I did clean the die out prior to use. just today I sized my 6GT cases. and while it was better what I found is out of 100 cases. I had 2 sizes one group came out to be 1.5325 and about 40 turned out to be 1.5315 all cases fell in these 2 ranges not sure why?

JR1200W3 · Nov 10, 2024

Jesusisking said:
I do have cam over, I believe i use the same amount of lube on each case, yes I did clean the die out prior to use. just today I sized my 6GT cases. and while it was better what I found is out of 100 cases. I had 2 sizes one group came out to be 1.5325 and about 40 turned out to be 1.5315 all cases fell in these 2 ranges not sure why?

I would be skeptical that tools you have to measure can do much better than that. It also requires a light touch and comparators can settle on the shoulders differently. People on here are too proud to admit it but what you're seeing is pretty normal. Don't get wrapped up in .001". It could be measuring, brass quality, lube, whatever. It's not going to make a practical difference in loading or accuracy.

Just run that brass through your gun and ensure it chambers. Yes, despite the fact that it should because it measures .002(on average) smaller than fired brass.

Jesusisking · Nov 10, 2024

JR1200W3 said:
I would be skeptical that tools you have to measure can do much better than that. It also requires a light touch and comparators can settle on the shoulders differently. People on here are too proud to admit it but what you're seeing is pretty normal. Don't get wrapped up in .001". It could be measuring, brass quality, lube, whatever. It's not going to make a practical difference in loading or accuracy.

Just run that brass through your gun and ensure it chambers. Yes, despite the fact that it should because it measures .002(on average) smaller than fired brass.

I do have Mitutoyo calipers I'm using Hornady head space comparator, but I understand there will be variances in any tool. Thanks for your help it was just driving my OCD a little crazy.

ICU22250 · Nov 10, 2024

_ACGuy_ said:
large jaws, homemade 99% alcohol w/Lanolin 11:1 ratio. Spray it in a metal pan. roll it a little wait 5 - 10 minutes. resize first case was set to resize to 2.210" with a SAC 300WM comparator.

These are the numbers I got a 47 case I just resized. 3 second dwell time also.

Average
2.2079
SD
0.0015
Min
2.2040
Max
2.2105
ES
0.0065

I would think if there was variance in the case length from shoulder datum to the base after three firings it would be negligible.(I anneal after ever de-prime, wet tumble, drying cycle). Its so weird to get so much variance. I made sure I used the forester lock ring and the die was tight. Its super frustrating. MY velocity ES was between 7 and 14 per every 5 shot group last weekend. That doesn't seem too bad.

I am using an auto-trickler v4 currently so I know the powder charge was fairly consistent.

I was thinking the alcohol and lanolin ratio was supposed to be 10:1... I've seen this somewhere just don't remember where..

BuildingConceptsllc · Nov 10, 2024

Jesusisking said:
I do have cam over, I believe i use the same amount of lube on each case, yes I did clean the die out prior to use. just today I sized my 6GT cases. and while it was better what I found is out of 100 cases. I had 2 sizes one group came out to be 1.5325 and about 40 turned out to be 1.5315 all cases fell in these 2 ranges not sure why?

if you have a .001" variance overall you should be good to go. Make sure it chambers and see what it measures once they are all fired

Ex E6 · Nov 10, 2024

Yo ; 0.001- 0.004" isn't gonna mean squat ,so long as the longest resizing fits YOUR chamber .

As was suggested increase sizing dwell ,also double size and rotate case approximately 180 deg. . Depending upon an individuals chamber size ,fired cases can vary according to cartridges powder charges as well as bullet depth into the lands . It ALL produces pressures and those most certainly effect case dimensions . Case lube up around shoulder and or neck can most certainly account for variable measurements of cases .

I personally never sweat small measurement variations ,as long as they fit in MY chamber a few thousandths isn't gonna make or break a match . Unless one is BR shooting then it most certainly could . Gas guns almost certainly require 0.004" chamber clearances ,at leastwise in MY weapons . I don't tolerate malfunctions ,it can cost one everything .

Partial annealing or in reality restoring ductility ,happens between 800 deg. F. but happens faster at 1200 Deg. F. . Meaning the faster one can heat just the neck and shoulder junction the better . As this prevents heat migration down the body of the case .

My case necks and shoulder see 1K 1200 Deg. F. ,yet the bases never exceed 225 deg. F. . Mainly because of pin point flame directed from the shoulder too the neck . NOT 90 deg. too the case .

What may be difficult to see is , My modified Annealeez torch head is actually slanted towards you about 120-122 deg. rather than being at 90 deg. to the case . It heats quicker and directs the heat away from the wheels . I can load 200 + cases set it walk away and do other tasks .

Does it work ?. Well I've gotten #47 reloads on those 1942-43 M2 .30 Cal cases and haven't lost a case or torn a rim and ALL reloads were within 1 Gr. Max loads . And if you know anything about gas guns ,you know they're NOT gentle on extraction ,especially M1 Garands and ditto for My M14's .

Fyi , Those 42-43 cases were left on a Military firing range 55 years too the weather ,before He picked them up and I got them about about 15 years after that . They were ALL stored outside in open 5 gal. buckets ,so pretty rough . Yet ultrasonic cleaned them like nothing else can . My torch setup matches Lapua ductile heat signature precisely . Funny because ALL of calibers I've checked go 0.5910" from the neck down . 5.56X45 ,7.62X51 ,7.62X63

Rocketmandb · Nov 10, 2024

supercorndogs said:
If you're pulling an unlubed expander ball through necks when FL sizing. It will move the shoulder.

^^^^ What he said

This is why I have no expander balls anywhere in my reloading room. I actually had to order one for a video to test the difference using ball vs mandrel. Using an expander ball is made worse by using too small a bushing and/or not using neck lube.

supercorndogs said:
I would think the shoulder would resist movement better pushing a mandrel into the neck.

Brass has 2.5x more compressive strength than tensile, meaning it is much more able to resist forces from a mandrel (going in) vs. an expander ball coming back out. Not to mention that most expander balls are not made to be all that efficient on the exit side, whereas mandrels are much more sleek because they only have to worry about going in.

@_ACGuy_ if you do not use a mandrel, get one. Cheapest die you can buy (excluding mandrels) and then each mandrel is typically less than $30, depending on which brand you get.

_ACGuy_ · Nov 11, 2024

Rocketmandb said:
^^^^ What he said

This is why I have no expander balls anywhere in my reloading room. I actually had to order one for a video to test the difference using ball vs mandrel. Using an expander ball is made worse by using too small a bushing and/or not using neck lube.

Brass has 2.5x more compressive strength than tensile, meaning it is much more able to resist forces from a mandrel (going in) vs. an expander ball coming back out. Not to mention that most expander balls are not made to be all that efficient on the exit side, whereas mandrels are much more sleek because they only have to worry about going in.

@_ACGuy_ if you do not use a mandrel, get one. Cheapest die you can buy (excluding mandrels) and then each mandrel is typically less than $30, depending on which brand you get.

All of my dies are redding elite S bushing dies and competition bullet seaters with micrometer adjustment and swapped stems for vld projectiles. I have really good equipment and want results to go along with it. I'm getting there. I bought the imperial graphite and applicator bb's as well as some graphite stuff you put on with a q-tip that bolt action reloading recommended.

Tokay444 · Nov 11, 2024

Jesusisking said:
I do have Mitutoyo calipers I'm using Hornady head space comparator, but I understand there will be variances in any tool. Thanks for your help it was just driving my OCD a little crazy.

Yeah, without a snap mic designed for exactly this function, you’re not measuring anything to +/-.0005”

Rocketmandb · Nov 11, 2024

_ACGuy_ said:
All of my dies are redding elite S bushing dies and competition bullet seaters with micrometer adjustment and swapped stems for vld projectiles. I have really good equipment and want results to go along with it. I'm getting there.

Use of a mandrel is completely independent of what dies you're using for the other steps in the process - you could have the best dies in the world and they won't solve for what a mandrel does. The SAC dies come closest, but still aren't covering 100%. Coincidentally, there is a section in the latest Precision Rifle Blog article that touches on this - though it's somewhat light on data, it does show a correlation between the SDs the top shooters are reporting and whether or not they use a mandrel. I'm working on a video for my channel that gets more data to compare using a mandrel vs. using an expander ball.

memilanuk · Nov 11, 2024

ICU22250 said:
I was thinking the alcohol and lanolin ratio was supposed to be 10:1... I've seen this somewhere just don't remember where..

10, 11 or 12:1 doesn't really make that big of a deal. Worry about something else.

memilanuk · Nov 11, 2024

Rocketmandb said:
Use of a mandrel is completely independent of what dies you're using for the other steps in the process - you could have the best dies in the world and they won't solve for what a mandrel does. The SAC dies come closest, but still aren't covering 100%. Coincidentally, there is a section in the latest Precision Rifle Blog article that touches on this - though it's somewhat light on data, it does show a correlation between the SDs the top shooters are reporting and whether or not they use a mandrel. I'm working on a video for my channel that gets more data to compare using a mandrel vs. using an expander ball.

I saw that blog post. Kinda interesting, as while there was a slightly lower SD from the rounds done with the mandrel, I didn't see a clear corelation with their actual placement. Might not want to read too much into that.

As an aside... I recently posed the question 'bushing only' vs 'bushing + mandrel' to folks shooting LR BR... and the response was overwhelmingly 'bushing only'. Kinda like about 50% of your top PRS shooters in that survey.

Maybe the results on target matter more than the SD number.

Rocketmandb · Nov 11, 2024

memilanuk said:
As an aside... I recently posed the question 'bushing only' vs 'bushing + mandrel' to folks shooting LR BR... and the response was overwhelmingly 'bushing only'.

The BR crowd usually neck turns, so EDIT: NOT using a MANDREL makes more sense there.

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Weird question regarding FL sizing

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