Criterion barrel brass pressure signs

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

I recent did a build with a criterion pencil 16" mid gas 223w chrome lined. Initial impressions were good, a quick borescope through the bore reviled no obvious defects. It has been shooting factory ammo noticeably better than some of my BA barrels.

The second range day out, I ended up popping several primers causing the FCG to get jammed up. Upon recovering the brass, I found 5 pieces without the primer (out of ~200 rounds), and almost all had ejector swipes. This was winchester/lake city m193. I also tried some pmc x-tac m193 and still got aggressive ejector swipes, but no popped primers (out of 50 rounds). Historically I have found the pmc x-tac to be on the lighter side (chrono 2950 out of a 16", 3120 out of a 20"). I tried this factory ammo in several other know good guns and zero issues with ejector swipes or pressure signs.

I had some really light reloads with virgin starline 556 brass that I used for the first shots in order to start burnishing out the reamer marks in the throat/lands area before making any accuracy assessments. No pressure signs using that ammo. ~~"break in" process and zero pressure signs with that stuff. By "break in" I just mean getting a few hundred round down the barrel before making any accuracy assessments or starting load development.~~

other info about the new criterion build:
SOLGW BCG
adjustable gas
a5 buffer system w/A5H2, new sprinco green buffer spring

I'm wondering what to do at this point... The only obvious things I can think of is contact criterion or try a larger variety of factory ammo.

bfoosh006 · Oct 13, 2024

I would start by, Making sure the chamber and bore are thoroughly clean of any packing / shipping oils.

All my Criterion barrels have come soaked in oil.

Check , with your borescope, the chambers leade area. If possible post a video or pics here.

And your 223 Wylde chamber should be fine with 5.56 NATO ammo... if it is still popping primers , then I wouldcontact Criterion.

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

bfoosh006 said:
I would start by, Making sure the chamber and bore are thoroughly clean of any packing / shipping oils.

Yes I did do this right when I got it during the borescope inspection. I also polished the feed ramps a bit so the brass/bullet doesn't get torn up as much.

msgriff · Oct 13, 2024

Which AGB, how are you adjusting it, and have you re-adjusted since "break-in"?

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

msgriff said:
Which AGB, how are you adjusting it, and have you re-adjusted since "break-in"?

Superlative arms, restrictive mode, yes.
I have about 10 superlative AGB's, I am not the set it and forget it type.

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

@bfoosh006 at this point the barrel has almost a 1000 rounds through it. About 400 were my light reloads with virgin starline 556 brass/62 hornady fmj.

msgriff · Oct 13, 2024

Josh555 said:
Superlative arms, restrictive mode, yes.
I have about 10 superlative AGB's, I am not the set it and forget it type.

Are you adjusting based on ejection angle or minimum gas for LRBHO?

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

@bfoosh006

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

msgriff said:
Are you adjusting based on ejection angle or minimum gas for LRBHO?

Both. I like to see what the minimum setting is to achieve LRBHO on a clean gun, then add gas to get proper ejection (3-4 o'clock). A couple more clicks open for reliability and still good ejection.

msgriff · Oct 13, 2024

Josh555 said:
Both. I like to see what the minimum setting is to achieve LRBHO on a clean gun, then add gas to get proper ejection (3-4 o'clock). A couple more clicks open for reliability and still good ejection.

How many more clicks or revolutions (4 clicks per revolution) are you opening it up from minimum LRBHO?

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

msgriff said:
How many more clicks or revolutions (4 clicks per revolution) are you opening it up from minimum LRBHO?

4 clicks. With this a5 buffer system, I can just about have the gas all the way open before I observe overgassed ejection.

Of course I reduce gas depending on the silencer I use. I have both flow though and "regular" silencers.

hlee · Oct 13, 2024

You should expect to be able to put any gas block on a barrel and not pop primers or rip rims with common factory ammunition.

msgriff · Oct 13, 2024

Josh555 said:
4 clicks. With this a5 buffer system, I can just about have the gas all the way open before I observe overgassed ejection.

Of course I reduce gas depending on the silencer I use. I have both flow though and "regular" silencers.

Is your issue happening while running suppressed, and if so, what specific suppressor(s)?

DeathBeforeDismount · Oct 13, 2024

There is no such thing as break in with a chrome lined barrel...so have fun with that.

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
There is no such thing as break in with a chrome lined barrel...so have fun with that.

Again, not really break in, just "burnishing" out the reamer marks in the throat/lands area.

Similar to what has been mentioned by Molon

see here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/criterion-core-barrel-accuracy-evaluation.7096829/

TonyAngel · Oct 13, 2024

The gas block has nothing to do with an over pressure situation occurring in the chamber. Have you checked headspace? The ejector swipes could be caused by a few different things, but before chasing that down, id check the headspace.

Don't tune your rifle based on ejection pattern. There are things other than gas flow that will affect ejection pattern. Tune to reliable lock back on an empty magazine.

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

The gas block has nothing to do with an over pressure situation occurring in the chamber.

Thanks for confirming this, and no offense @msgriff, but I was starting to question the pertinence of your questions regarding gas block setting/silencer type.

Have you checked headspace? The ejector swipes could be caused by a few different things, but before chasing that down, id check the headspace.

I did not check headspace, but I have been checking the spent brass in a L.E Wilson and Whidden Gunworks case gauge I use for reloading, the spent cases headspace is shorter than 223 rem no-go. I will dig up my headspace gauges, disassemble the bolt, check, and report back.

While I am 99% sure that headspace is within spec, the only thing I can think of with excessive headspace is case-head separation. But even that shouldn't be an issue on the first firing with lake city brass. I did make the mistake one time of buying machine gun fired 7.62x51 brass, and I was getting hard sizing and case-head separation on the first re-load. But that didn't appear to have any effect on whether the loads were over-pressure.

DeathBeforeDismount · Oct 13, 2024

Josh555 said:
Again, not really break in, just "burnishing" out the reamer marks in the throat/lands area.

Similar to what has been mentioned by Molon

see here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/criterion-core-barrel-accuracy-evaluation.7096829/

The chamber is chrome lined too, so not sure how that's going to work. Any imperfections or tooling marks left over, including sharp edges will be covered by the chroming. So unless you plan to shoot enough to wear through that chrome lining (maybe 25-35K rounds of high volume), probably way after the gas port erodes away, Its not happening.

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
The chamber is chrome lined too, so not sure how that's going to work. Any imperfections or tooling marks left over, including sharp edges will be covered by the chroming. So unless you plan to shoot enough to wear through that chrome lining (maybe 25-35K rounds of high volume), probably way after the gas port erodes away, Its not happening.

The borescope indicates otherwise. Luckily, I bought 2 of these barrels so I can compare a new one against one with ~800 rounds (the one in which this thread was started for).

The left is an uncleaned barrel after ~800 rounds, the right is a new one with the packing oil cleaned out. IMO, this is a clear indication that the sharp edges of the lands are being "burnished" away.

Here is a good video showing what 15k rounds does to a CL barrel:

whatsupdoc · Oct 13, 2024

That is quite a bit of fire cracking for a chrome lined barrel with 800 rounds, are you doing a lot of mag dumps.
Almost looks like rust.

Maybe you should try cleaning the barrel and see.

Josh555 · Oct 13, 2024

whatsupdoc said:
That is quite a bit of fire cracking for a chrome lined barrel with 800 rounds, are you doing a lot of mag dumps.
Almost looks like rust.

Maybe you should try cleaning the barrel and see.

To be honest, I was thinking the same thing regarding the fire cracking. I didn't express that thought due to my lack of experience with chrome lined barrels. I doubt its rust, I live in a pretty dry climate and the only range days have been good weather.

I have cleaned the barrel 4-5 time since new.

No literal mag dumps, but medium to high cadence training drills on the shot timer. 3 mags in ~10 min followed by a long cool down period before starting a new set of drills. I did one 30 round string from a bench at medium cadence (60-90 sec total) to gauge accuracy of factory ammo compared to my existing ballistic advantage, it was noticeably better. This was done with winchester/lake city '24 headstamp m193. This was done prior to the popped primer incident that sparked this thread.

I'll post some more borescope shots:

1st and 2nd are the cleaned criterion barrel that thread references, the 3rd image is 1.5" from the lands. 4th image is the gas port, 5th is the land opposite the gas port.

My current daily driver/main squeeze is a ballistic advantage 16" pencil 4150 nitrided mid gas 556 nato 7 twist with ~1500-2000 rounds. Not as sure on the round count but at LEAST 1k. Lands appear to be nicely burnished in and some light fire cracking. Firing schedule is no worse than the above mentioned on the criterion. This ballistic advantage barrel has been a good shooter for me and what I expect from it.

MontanaMan · Oct 14, 2024

I've spent half a lifetime working with electroplated chromium & other types of coatings as well...........just not on gun barrels.
And that's a schitty chrome job; the underlying chrome in the areas shown was plated as abnormally nodular/rough.

And the beginnings of the chrome peeling is indicative of poor adhesion.............won't be long until you have some significant coating failure.

I would return that barrel with your photos & get a replacement of a refund & not waste another minute on it.

But I still don't think that accounts for the high pressure, not really sure what that cause could be; your ejector swipes are indicative of unlocking too soon so it's either over gassed or your buffer / spring combo is allowing too quick of a bolt unlock & movement with no delay.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

tucaz · Oct 16, 2024

years ago i had 2 crit barrels (556 and 308) that both had tight chambers and popped primers. i see things haven't changed.

Josh555 · Oct 16, 2024

tucaz said:
years ago i had 2 crit barrels (556 and 308) that both had tight chambers and popped primers. i see things haven't changed.

Josh555 · Oct 16, 2024

I got ahold of criterion and this was their initial response:

I would be happy to have a pre-paid UPS return shipping label sent out to cover the cost of bringing in your complete upper receiver for a detailed inspection and testing. This would allow me to evaluate the barrel in detail but also all of the supporting parts and pieces to see how they are fitting and functioning together. Blown primers are typically the result of improper headspace, loose gas rings, out of spec ammunition, or an improper recoil assembly. If you have loose headspace or gas rings, it is entirely possible that you are experiencing chamber pressure fluctuations and this will result in premature wear of the barrel as it works to contain pressure spikes. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me directly.

I'm having a hard time understanding how loose gas rings or an improper recoil assembly has anything to do with chamber pressure. Peak chamber pressure occurs within the first few inches of the barrel, long before the bullet passes over the gas port.

Cascade Hemi · Oct 16, 2024

Josh555 said:
I got ahold of criterion and this was their initial response:

I'm having a hard time understanding how loose gas rings or an improper recoil assembly has anything to do with chamber pressure. Peak chamber pressure occurs within the first few inches of the barrel, long before the bullet passes over the gas port.

Their response is pretty retarded and that's a rough looking 800 rounds of wear.

Excessive gas can cause early unlocking, which can cause ejector swipes and blown primers. So can an improperly made barrel. The pictures don't lead me to think the issue is gas related.

Loose gas rings generally causes less gas pressure in the BCG. Tight rings cause more gas pressure in the BCG.

Josh555 · Oct 16, 2024

Minimum pressure at gas port to cycle a stock AR - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

Josh555 · Oct 16, 2024

I should have shared this earlier, but this is clearly overpressure

tucaz · Oct 16, 2024

Josh555 said:
I got ahold of criterion and this was their initial response:

I'm having a hard time understanding how loose gas rings or an improper recoil assembly has anything to do with chamber pressure. Peak chamber pressure occurs within the first few inches of the barrel, long before the bullet passes over the gas port.

i'm not expert by far but have 30 years of shooting ar15's and have worn out alot of gas rings. never once did it over pressure, it just fails to cycle fully.

that answer is garbage and he was cat little boxing....covering up the shit in hopes no one sees it.

Josh555 · Nov 7, 2024

I ended up not sending in my upper to criterion. Instead I decided to 'slug' the barrel, twice, and compare to a bunch of bullets I have on hand:

slug: .2236" - .2237"
70gr Nosler RDF: .2241" - .2242"
40gr Nosler B-Tip: .2238" - .2239"
77gr Sierra TMK: .2239" - .2240"
60gr Sierra TMK: .2240" - .2241"
55gr Sierra BK: .2240" - .2241
53gr Hornady Vmax: .2241" - .2242"
36gr Barnes varmint grenade: .2244"

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret these results as I am not a barrel maker. ~~I need to slug some other know good barrels and see what that yields.~~

Edit: I slugged a ballistic advantage stainless 8 twist barrel and it came out to .2245" - .2246".

Cascade Hemi · Nov 7, 2024

@Frank Green

What do you think Frank?

Frank Green · Nov 8, 2024

Cascade Hemi said:
@Frank Green

What do you think Frank?

If the bore is truly undersize... that will cause pressure issues.

Here is the hard part right now... sorry but slugging the bore doesn't give you really good numbers.

I'd call Criterion up.... tell them what is going on and send it in so they can look at it and go from there.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

supercorndogs · Nov 9, 2024

I notice the brass extruded into the ejector and extractor negative areas is not sheared from the bolt turning. Might be worth double checking headspace.

Josh555 · Monday at 6:32 PM

@supercorndogs The bolt did NOT close on a 223 rem no-go gauge, I don't have a 223 rem go gauge. I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread.

Another reason why I am confident it is pressure issues related to the barrel and not over-gassing/headspace issues.

Josh555 · Monday at 6:37 PM

Frank Green said:
If the bore is truly undersize... that will cause pressure issues.

Here is the hard part right now... sorry but slugging the bore doesn't give you really good numbers.

I'd call Criterion up.... tell them what is going on and send it in so they can look at it and go from there.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I will try again, I had previously called criterion and they were quick to point out that it could be how I built the rifle. I posted an email response from them earlier in this thread. I have been mulling over how I want to respond when I call them up.

Criterion barrel brass pressure signs

I recent did a build with a criterion pencil 16" mid gas 223w chrome lined. Initial impressions were good, a quick borescope through the bore reviled no obvious defects. It has been shooting factory ammo noticeably better than some of my BA barrels. The second range day out, I ended up...

www.snipershide.com

Josh555 · Monday at 6:55 PM

MontanaMan said:
I've spent half a lifetime working with electroplated chromium & other types of coatings as well...........just not on gun barrels.
And that's a schitty chrome job; the underlying chrome in the areas shown was plated as abnormally nodular/rough.

And the beginnings of the chrome peeling is indicative of poor adhesion.............won't be long until you have some significant coating failure.

I would return that barrel with your photos & get a replacement of a refund & not waste another minute on it.

But I still don't think that accounts for the high pressure, not really sure what that cause could be; your ejector swipes are indicative of unlocking too soon so it's either over gassed or your buffer / spring combo is allowing too quick of a bolt unlock & movement with no delay.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

Regarding the chrome plating, I have a 10.5 Criterion core 300BO and it has been good so far, ~1500 rounds of supers and~500 subs.

I suppose comparing 300bo to 223 wylde isn't exactly apples to apples.

BCP · Monday at 9:28 PM

They offered to look at it if you send in the whole thing, that's not entirely unheard of, at the very least they usually ask for the barrel and the bolt together.

"I had some really light reloads with virgin starline 556 brass that I used for the first shots in order to start burnishing out the reamer marks in the throat/lands area before making any accuracy assessments. No pressure signs using that ammo."

It could be short headspace.

I had the opposite problem with a green mountain barrel accuracy was OK but brass was growing like crazy so I sent it back along with my bolt and they swapped it out for another one that headspaced tighter. Pretty good service on a 189$ barrel.

Oh, measuring your fired brass (length, diameter at shoulder, case head) will give you an idea of your chamber size.

mtrmn · Monday at 9:50 PM

Sounds like you've ruled out gas problems. BUT anytime there's a possibility that it's gas and you have an adjustable gas block, you can simply cut the gas off altogether and shoot it like a bolt gun. If the same symptoms show up, you KNOW it's not gas or timing. Just sayin'

Desert_Racer · Monday at 10:53 PM

Not sure when your date of purchase was, but I bought a 14.5 CORE barrel about 3 months ago that popped primers across four different types of ammo I’ve never had issues with in any of my other guns with multiple different chambers (5.56 NATO, .223 Wylde, CLE Match, etc). I tried multiple bolts that all headspaced good and ended up with the same issues. Had a few stuck cases as well. All Unsuppressed. It was a damn shame because the barrel was pretty accurate.

Couldn’t figure out what the deal was so I sent it back. They said the barrel checked out fine, which I don’t believe. Regardless, they warrantied it and sent me a brand new one with a headspaced BCM bolt free of charge, so that was cool. Sold it and put a DD CHF barrel on the gun using all the same parts as before and had zero issues.

Frank Green · 2024-11-19T08:02:47-0500

Josh555 said:
I will try again, I had previously called criterion and they were quick to point out that it could be how I built the rifle. I posted an email response from them earlier in this thread. I have been mulling over how I want to respond when I call them up.

Criterion barrel brass pressure signs

I recent did a build with a criterion pencil 16" mid gas 223w chrome lined. Initial impressions were good, a quick borescope through the bore reviled no obvious defects. It has been shooting factory ammo noticeably better than some of my BA barrels. The second range day out, I ended up...

www.snipershide.com

I'd send it in. If they're asking for the whole upper assy... let them go over the whole thing. I'm not saying you did anything wrong in the build at all either.

I've been in that boat as well from the service side of things. I've had customers send in they're whole uppers... to find it was something else.. and having all the stuff in front of you can help tremendously to diagnose what's going on.

Again if it is the barrel... they should stand behind it and I don't see why they wouldn't.

Josh555 · 2024-11-19T20:15:42-0500

BCP said:
They offered to look at it if you send in the whole thing, that's not entirely unheard of, at the very least they usually ask for the barrel and the bolt together.

"I had some really light reloads with virgin starline 556 brass that I used for the first shots in order to start burnishing out the reamer marks in the throat/lands area before making any accuracy assessments. No pressure signs using that ammo."

It could be short headspace.

I had the opposite problem with a green mountain barrel accuracy was OK but brass was growing like crazy so I sent it back along with my bolt and they swapped it out for another one that headspaced tighter. Pretty good service on a 189$ barrel.

Oh, measuring your fired brass (length, diameter at shoulder, case head) will give you an idea of your chamber size.

Other than bulk blasting ammo, I predominantly shoot reloads. I have a variety of case gauges; L.E. Wilson, Lyman, and Whidden Gunworks. I do not have a headspace comparator kit.

My observation from the fired brass is that this criterion barrel/SOLWG bolt is on the loose side for 223 wylde. The bolt does not close on a 223 rem NO GO gauge.

mtrmn said:
Sounds like you've ruled out gas problems. BUT anytime there's a possibility that it's gas and you have an adjustable gas block, you can simply cut the gas off altogether and shoot it like a bolt gun. If the same symptoms show up, you KNOW it's not gas or timing. Just sayin'

I have done this in the past, but didn't think to do it at the time when I noticed the popped primers on this barrel. I did however adjust the gas down so that it would barley cycle to try and eliminate early unlocking issues. Too late to go back as I have already installed a new barrel from a different manufacturer. I suppose I could re-assemble with the criterion barrel but the new one is working fine...

Desert_Racer said:
Not sure when your date of purchase was, but I bought a 14.5 CORE barrel about 3 months ago that popped primers across four different types of ammo I’ve never had issues with in any of my other guns with multiple different chambers (5.56 NATO, .223 Wylde, CLE Match, etc). I tried multiple bolts that all headspaced good and ended up with the same issues. Had a few stuck cases as well. All Unsuppressed. It was a damn shame because the barrel was pretty accurate.

Couldn’t figure out what the deal was so I sent it back. They said the barrel checked out fine, which I don’t believe. Regardless, they warrantied it and sent me a brand new one with a headspaced BCM bolt free of charge, so that was cool. Sold it and put a DD CHF barrel on the gun using all the same parts as before and had zero issues.

Date of purchase was Late July 2024 from ar15discounts. Date code on barrel indicates it was manufactured February 2024.

I did notice that this criterion barrel was surprisingly accurate for a pencil profile, but that doesn't mean much to me if it destroys brass.

Similar to what you are saying, I have over a dozen 5.56 NATO/223 wylde guns in a variety of gas system lengths/barrel lengths/buffer setups and never had an issue with winchester/lake city m193/m855 or PMC x-tac m193. While it may not be good practice, I have not had an issue shooting reloads in guns for which the loads where not originally developed for. They are always within the range of published load data.

Frank Green said:
I'd send it in. If they're asking for the whole upper assy... let them go over the whole thing. I'm not saying you did anything wrong in the build at all either.

I've been in that boat as well from the service side of things. I've had customers send in they're whole uppers... to find it was something else.. and having all the stuff in front of you can help tremendously to diagnose what's going on.

Again if it is the barrel... they should stand behind it and I don't see why they wouldn't.

I tend to be impatient and have already bought and installed a new barrel from which this criterion was removed. No issues with factory or reloaded ammo. Again, I will call them back up and see what they are willing to do.

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