Where are we at with ATF banning braces?

30calDeath · Dec 12, 2022

I'd like to form1 my PCC and get rid of the brace on my PCC, if the AFT wants us to register them doesn't that have something to do with form1? I'm just trying to get a free tax stamp outta this honestly. Not sure if that's possible just heard it being discussed before, maybe I'm way off the mark here? Wasn't the AFT supposed to come out saying something by years end?

E. Bryant · Dec 12, 2022

All I can say is that a date has not been formally announced to the FFL community, but we're often the last to know.

In my opinion, this event is highly likely to turn both the Form 1 and Form 4 process into a complete shit show, as the system will not be able to accommodate a few million applications.

If you're looking to SBR your rig, do so right now, pay your $200, and hopefully you can enjoy a <1 month turnaround on the application. My last F1 application was approved in 7 calendar days. That won't happen for months or years after the brace ruling passes.

Charger442 · Dec 12, 2022

I don't own any braces, but I'm waiting for the bait and switch. Remember 41P? Turned into 41F and most of us got really screwed

GBMaryland · Dec 12, 2022

atepointer · Dec 12, 2022

30calDeath said:
I'd like to form1 my PCC and get rid of the brace on my PCC, if the AFT wants us to register them doesn't that have something to do with form1? I'm just trying to get a free tax stamp outta this honestly. Not sure if that's possible just heard it being discussed before, maybe I'm way off the mark here? Wasn't the AFT supposed to come out saying something by years end?

I have a buddy who tracks this constantly and he said sometime in December is what he is expecting.

GBMaryland · Dec 12, 2022

I started the form 1 for the one A.R. pistol that I have… That was made as a pistol from the manufacturer… and I had them cancel it.

Apparently, if you remove the pistol brace, then there is no longer a question as to whether or not it’s an SBR. So I removed the pistol brace that came with the unit and now I believe it’s no longer an issue.

Done.

mark5pt56 · Dec 12, 2022

For peace of mind and my point of view, do the form 1 now. I read that if the pistol is declared an SBR, legally you can't form 1 an "existing" SBR and the only legal path is an amnesty letter. If they are unable to process these form 4's, taking 7-9 months now, how are they going to manage millions of fm 1's?

wade2big · Dec 12, 2022

Discussing how to roll over even before your masters and their hired guns with a badge threaten you with imprisonment and death. That’s obedience right there. Back the blue in the land of the free.

acudaowner · Dec 12, 2022

what braces I don't see no stinking braces I know nothing , nothing .

GBMaryland · Dec 12, 2022

acudaowner said:
what braces I don't see no stinking braces I know nothing , nothing .

Basically.

Charger442 · Dec 12, 2022

mark5pt56 said:
For peace of mind and my point of view, do the form 1 now. I read that if the pistol is declared an SBR, legally you can't form 1 an "existing" SBR and the only legal path is an amnesty letter. If they are unable to process these form 4's, taking 7-9 months now, how are they going to manage millions of fm 1's?

you can take the brace off and throw it away. and magically you have a legal pistol again. Like we all did prior to about 2012? i dont know when Sig braces first cursed us with their presence.

hlee · Dec 12, 2022

I can’t wait for all of the screaming at the moon that occurs when pistol brace owners realize that; 1) The 4999 form is just a self incrimination worksheet and no matter what they do they will still be regarded as having an illegal SBR and 2) there will not be any ‘free tax stamp’ that comes from this for anyone.

The only answer that we actually have at the moment is that the final rule has not been published, and there is zero clarity until that happens- or doesn’t happen.

redneckbmxer24 · Dec 12, 2022

I think you’ll find that the majority of brace owners will disappear them one way or another though because they aren’t going to want to pay the tax stamp and SBR because most of them have them to avoid that in the first place. There will likely still be enough people who want to keep their setups and be legal that it will clog of NFA’s system though. So if you want to form 1 I wouldn’t wait until it goes into effect.

Longshot231 · Dec 12, 2022

It's estimated that there are 20-40 million AR style pistols with braces in circulation.

I'm willing to bet that only about 1% of those people that own the AR style pistols with braces even know about the proposed rule.

My AR pistol friends didn't know anything about this until I informed them.

Most gunowners buy a firearm and shoot it a few times then put it in the back of the gun closet or safe and forget about it for a while. About once per year, they will take it out and shoot it at a public range or private one when invited.

Watch the hue and cry go up when several of these "uninformed" pistol brace owners get into trouble and find themselves charged with a felony.

First they came for the machine guns but I did not own a machine gun and did not speak up.
Then they came for the bump stocks but I did not own a bump stock and did not speak up.
Then they came for the "high capacity" magazines but I did not own a "high capacity" magazine and did not speak up.
Then they came for my AR-15 pistol with arm brace. Now there's nobody to speak up for me.

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 12, 2022

Exactly, who gives a fuck

30calDeath · Dec 12, 2022

E. Bryant said:
All I can say is that a date has not been formally announced to the FFL community, but we're often the last to know.

In my opinion, this event is highly likely to turn both the Form 1 and Form 4 process into a complete shit show, as the system will not be able to accommodate a few million applications.

If you're looking to SBR your rig, do so right now, pay your $200, and hopefully you can enjoy a <1 month turnaround on the application. My last F1 application was approved in 7 calendar days. That won't happen for months or years after the brace ruling passes.

10-4! I will do that, thanks for the heads up.

30calDeath · Dec 12, 2022

wade2big said:
Discussing how to roll over even before your masters and their hired guns with a badge threaten you with imprisonment and death. That’s obedience right there. Back the blue in the land of the free.

I get what you are saying but I'll be SBR'n all my stripped lowers so I'd be going form1 anyways so I guess what you are saying doesn't even apply to me, but I appreciate the kind words!

E. Bryant · Dec 12, 2022

Longshot231 said:
It's estimated that there are 20-40 million AR style pistols with braces in circulation.

The number keeps growing everytime someone posts an estimate, but it's definitely not anywhere that large. The total number of ARs in circulation in the US is around 20M by MSM estimates, and I'd be surprised if braced pistols were more than a few percent of that.

They are still popular enough to be considered "in common use", and there are definitely enough to dork up the eForms system for a long time to come.

Charger442 · Dec 12, 2022

E. Bryant said:
The number keeps growing everytime someone posts an estimate, but it's definitely not anywhere that large. The total number of ARs in circulation in the US is around 20M by MSM estimates, and I'd be surprised if braced pistols were more than a few percent of that.

They are still popular enough to be considered "in common use", and there are definitely enough to dork up the eForms system for a long time to come.

Of your couple percent that are braced pistols, I would guess only a couple percent will form 1? So about 8000 new form 1s?

I thought it was 40-50k applications per month now? I don't think this SBR influx is going to be any more of a hindrance than tax refund money purchasers influx.

just browsing · Dec 12, 2022

The whole “free tax stamp” thing came from the thought that current pistol owners could be granted amnesty through ‘voluntary’ Form 1. It was speculation and nothing more, so I highly doubt that’s what ends up happening.

But as others have said, there will be no clarification until there is clarification.

Supersubes · Dec 12, 2022

30calDeath said:
I get what you are saying but I'll be SBR'n all my stripped lowers so I'd be going form1 anyways so I guess what you are saying doesn't even apply to me, but I appreciate the kind words!

You're not getting what he’s saying.

alamo5000 · Dec 12, 2022

I don't have any pistol braced firearms, but if it's like anything else this would be a "tack on charge". For example if you rob a liquor store with a braced pistol they will charge you with all of that and then add on another charge for the firearm. I mean who after all will be sympathetic to a guy that robs a liquor store?

On the other hand if they even attempt to start charging random people for it they will lose their ass in court. I can see the defense attorney going through a school house rock video in open court explaining how a bill becomes a law.

30calDeath · Dec 12, 2022

Supersubes said:
You're not getting what he’s saying.

Guess not, sometimes I'm a little slow Ha!

stanley_white · Dec 12, 2022

Old school MP5 slings that enable support by “punching out” the gun will make a comeback I suspect.

-Stan

Cynical · Dec 13, 2022

E. Bryant said:
The number keeps growing everytime someone posts an estimate, but it's definitely not anywhere that large. The total number of ARs in circulation in the US is around 20M by MSM estimates, and I'd be surprised if braced pistols were more than a few percent of that.

They are still popular enough to be considered "in common use", and there are definitely enough to dork up the eForms system for a long time to come.

you make a good point here, and I believe that estimate came from the National Shooting Sports Foundation originally. My guess is they had AFMER data from ATF for that estimate.

GBMaryland · Dec 13, 2022

Well, given that companies like Daniel Defense make OEM Form 1 pistols w/ braces… I’m going to assume that there are a number of pistols with braces out there.

Of course, the solution is simple… remove the brace.

powdahound76 · Dec 13, 2022

The idiocy within this thread is simply amazing

FuhQ · Dec 13, 2022

The solution is even more simple…

Either A.) Wait and see what happens, or B.) Call your senators to vote yes on the SHORT Act (or whatever it’s called) that would eliminate all SBR/SBS/AOW’s from the NFA registry, and removes barrel length restrictions for firearms, therefore their stupid new rule change means absolutely nothing.

And yes, I know voting is pretty futile most times, but we do have the House for the next couple years, and the Dems lost their majority in the Senate thanks to Krysten Sinema leaving the Dem party to become independent, so there is a small glimmer of hope.

GBMaryland · Dec 13, 2022

powdahound76 said:
The idiocy within this thread is simply amazing

Whatever….

Longshot231 · Dec 13, 2022

White House Receives New Pistol Stabilizing Device Rule

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) and the Department of Justice have sent the rule surrounding pistol stabilizing devices to the White House for Presidential review.

www.ammoland.com

Longshot231 · Dec 13, 2022

E. Bryant · Dec 13, 2022

Charger442 said:
Of your couple percent that are braced pistols, I would guess only a couple percent will form 1? So about 8000 new form 1s?

I thought it was 40-50k applications per month now? I don't think this SBR influx is going to be any more of a hindrance than tax refund money purchasers influx.

I feel unqualified to make a good swag on compliance rate, but if you've got something like 1M braced pistols (5% of all ARs, which seems high) and there's 20% compliance rate (maybe way too high largely because normies aren't plugged into esoteric gun news), then it's 200,000 new Form 1s. Probably not catastrophic (there are approximately 2500 eForms of all type processed each day), but it could be enough to snarl up Form 1s for several months.

Generally speaking, I don't view the NFA branch as being a particularly robust system that would be tolerant of any significant disruption.

camocorvette · Dec 13, 2022

JohnCarter17 · Dec 13, 2022

alamo5000 said:
I don't have any pistol braced firearms, but if it's like anything else this would be a "tack on charge". For example if you rob a liquor store with a braced pistol they will charge you with all of that and then add on another charge for the firearm. I mean who after all will be sympathetic to a guy that robs a liquor store?

That depends. If he was stealing their stock of Southern Comfort, I would pardon him. Then award him the Medal of Freedom.

Longshot231 · Jan 16, 2024

billt · Oct 12, 2024

I'm resurrecting this thread rather than start another one. The last post was around 9 months ago. Does anyone know for sure and for certain where the law on these things sit as we speak?

(The Sig video is somewhat comforting, because it appears they're "putting their money where their mouth is"... So to speak).

I see places like Palmetto State Armory are selling AR "pistols" and uppers left and right. I'm assuming they wouldn't be doing that, if there was even the slightest chance of any illegalities.

Is there an actual "list" of some sorts, that define exactly which braces are legal, and which ones aren't? As per usual, this thing has turned into a cloudy, murky clusterfuck for the consumer.

Not to mention the sheer tonnage of misinformation that is out there could sink a container vessel. I don't want to call the ATF for information, because I know I would come away even more confused. Not to mention that would be like calling the cops to ask them the best way to commit murder.... Just asking for a friend.

LeftyJason · Oct 12, 2024

Also would be nice to see if places like iwi will bring back some of their pistols. Galil ace 2 7.62x39 13" barrel. I was considering getting one and sbr-ing it. Didnt something change with 922 at the same? Is that still in place?

atomic41 · Oct 12, 2024

I think it's pretty much dead as of now. Not sure what happens next.

Eighth Circuit Strikes Down Biden Administration Pistol Brace Rule as Arbitrary and Capricious

The Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled the Biden administration’s attempt to illegally ban pistol braces is “arbitrary and capricious.”

www.cramer.senate.gov

E. Bryant · Oct 12, 2024

I am not aware of any updated guidance from the ATF on this topic. If letters have been shared between the manufacturers and Tech Branch, they are not currently been made public, and there has not been any updated information provided to dealers since the "training" in early 2023 to the best of my knowledge.

Some but not all of the big distributors show available stock for braced pistols. It looks like both Springfield and S&W have pulled their braced pistols, but CMMG and Q (just to name a couple smaller manufacturers) offer them.

Other than esoteric NFA weirdness, this is the most confusing situation I've seen the ATF create during the entire time I've been a firearms enthusiast, and that's saying something considering the mess that's 922(r).

billt · Oct 12, 2024

E. Bryant said:
Other than esoteric NFA weirdness, this is the most confusing situation I've seen the ATF create during the entire time I've been a firearms enthusiast, and that's saying something considering the mess that's 922(r).

I must agree 110%.

billt · Oct 12, 2024

Then to top this off, you have fucking idiot lawmakers like this moron, who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground on this entire subject. This is worse than letting the flight attendant land the plane, while the baggage handler serves drinks! Just listen to this idiot.

JohnCarter17 · Oct 12, 2024

On 6/13/2024, the 5th District Court vacated the ATF pistol brace ban

The district court held that the Final Rule1 violated the Administrative Procedure Act’s
procedural requirements because it was (1) not a logical outgrowth of the Proposed Rule2; and
(2) arbitrary and capricious. The district court entered judgment vacating the Final Rule

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firearmspolicycoalition/pages/6710/attachments/original/1719346889/2024.06.25_143_28%28j%29_Letter.pdf?1719346889

An appeal was denied by the 8th Circuit court later in August. As linked above by atomic (and below by me).
The key here which is a serious ball kick to the ATF actually came via the Supreme Court:

This analysis is supported by the Supreme Court’s recent decision in Garland
v. Cargill, 602 U.S. 406 (2024), which was decided while this case was pending
appeal. In Cargill, a plaintiff sued under the APA to challenge an ATF rule that
reinterpreted the term “machinegun,” as defined by the NFA in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b),
to include weapons equipped with bump stocks. Id. at 414–15. The Supreme Court
clearly treated the ATF interpretive rule as a final agency action because the Court
held the ATF exceeded its statutory authority and affirmed the Fifth Circuit’s
judgment against the ATF. See id. at 427–29. It was true in Cargill and it is true
here: the Final Rule is a final agency action subject to judicial review

https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/24/08/233230P.pdf

Note the exceeded its statutory authority bit. That is referring to the end of the Chevron Doctrine, by SCOTUS ruling below:

On June 28, 2024, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a landmark decision in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo,1 overturning Chevron USA v. National Resources Defense Council2 and the federal judiciary's forty-year-old practice of deferring to agencies' reasonable interpretations of ambiguous federal laws.

U.S. Supreme Court Strikes Down Chevron Doctrine—What You Need to Know | White & Case LLP

On June 28, 2024, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a landmark decision in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo,1 overturning Chevron USA v. National Resources Defense Council2 and the federal judiciary's forty-year-old practice of deferring to agencies' reasonable interpretations of ambiguous...

www.whitecase.com

The effectively ends the ATF (and a ton of other federal agencies) abilities to interpret ambiguous federal laws. It effectively cuts off the ATFs ability to make further law changes as "interpretations" or whatever.

tucaz · Oct 13, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Exactly, who gives a fuck

i dont think local LE does. seems like you’d have to run into an atf agent to get some sorta response.

i had an 12.5” ar15 sbr in my truck in an accident that totaled my rig, asked the cop to hold it while shit got cleaned up. no questions asked.

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Where are we at with ATF banning braces?

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