Leveling my scopes

rustyinbend · Oct 11, 2024

I just don't get what's up with all the "tools" to do this. Here's my technique that has worked for literally years, and all you need is a carpentry level, a bubble level, and a pencil.

Put your rifle in a gun vise and position with a wall several feet behind the butt
Use the pencil and carpenter's level to draw a vertical line on the wall
- If you're doing this in the kitchen or living room ... ask permission first
Use the bubble level to level the rifle in the vise ... mount the scope rings or base and tighten to spec
Loosely mount the scope on the rifle
Point a very bright flashlight through the scope from front to rear - projecting your scope reticle onto the wall behind the butt stock
Line up the vertical reticle line of the scope with the vertical line you penciled on the wall
Gradually tighten everything down, making sure the rifle stays level and the flashlight reticle projection on the wall stays aligned and vertical

Declare victory and go drink a beer. If you keep the rifle horizontally level, and your pencil line is vertically level, and you keep the reticle and wall lines aligned during ring tightening ... this is fool-proof.

A great guy shared this with me years ago, and it works perfectly every time. The pencil line has been on my wall for years.

viking78 · Oct 11, 2024

I use Arrow Products USA Rock Vice and Scope mouting level.

Schütze · Oct 11, 2024

FuhQ · Oct 11, 2024

You can literally use a spare 0 MOA base, and a set of Fix-It-Sticks levels and dead-nuts level your scope. It's what I do. First I mount the rings on the rifle, to determine spacing. Then I put the scope in them and guesstimate the level and tighten the rings to 10 in-lbs. Remove the scope with rings attached, place them on a spare 0MOA base, torque to 55 in-lbs. Then loosen the scope caps and level the scope with the base level and make them match. Remove the spare 0MOA base, then go mount the scope on the rifle and tighten the base clamp screws... That simple. No special tools, nothing electronic, takes 10 minutes tops if you take your time. All you need is a flat surface and a flashlight and a couple levels.

_Windrider_ · Oct 11, 2024

The only thing I’ll say is this. If you level the reticle on the rifle you have two things you have to keep in the same plane, the rifle and the reticle. If I mount my scope off the gun using my badger dead level I only have to worry about the reticle cause once the base is level it’s not moving.

It’s just easier off the gun but it’s also not wrong to do it on the gun, IMHO though you increase your adds of introducing cant when doing it in the rifle, unless the cant is intentional.

rustyinbend · Oct 12, 2024

_Windrider_ said:
The only thing I’ll say is this. If you level the reticle on the rifle you have two things you have to keep in the same plane, the rifle and the reticle. If I mount my scope off the gun using my badger dead level I only have to worry about the reticle cause once the base is level it’s not moving.

It’s just easier off the gun but it’s also not wrong to do it on the gun, IMHO though you increase your adds of introducing cant when doing it in the rifle, unless the cant is intentional.

Trying to understand this. In my technique, the rifle is level in the vice with the scope mount affixed to the rifle. The only thing that moves, is the scope, and that's just to rotate it to align with the vertical line on the wall. I'm just not sure how to make sure the base is level, without ensuring the rifle is level. What am I missing?

smoothy8500 · Oct 12, 2024

If the scope reticle is level/plumb when shooting, does anything else really matter? Asking for a friend....

_Windrider_ · Oct 12, 2024

rustyinbend said:
Trying to understand this. In my technique, the rifle is level in the vice with the scope mount affixed to the rifle. The only thing that moves, is the scope, and that's just to rotate it to align with the vertical line on the wall. I'm just not sure how to make sure the base is level, without ensuring the rifle is level. What am I missing?

So if u r doing it in a vice it’s a non issue. Many people do it in a table using the bipod and rear bag to level the rifle then try to level the scope and torque the rings without moving either.

For me, and I’m biased cause I’ve always done it off the rifle, I just find it easier to use a jig like the badger dead level. Then I don’t have to worry about leveling the rifle and hoping the rail or whatever surface I’m using to put a levels on is actually flat. The dead level has a built in very accurate bubble level. Once it’s level you are good. Then all you need is a plumb bob for the reticle and your done. There are no machining tolerances throwing off the process.

3rdfocal · Oct 13, 2024

I do it with the scope mounted to the rifle. That's because of the most important part of the process:

Once the reticle is perfectly level, you've gotta ensure that whatever bubble level you'll be using when shooting gets installed/leveled at this time. Reticle/bubble level relationship is most important, gun is somewhat irrelevant (my ocd makes me level everything though). I've found that when behind the gun (shooting position), the angle you view the level can sometimes make it look like the bubble isn't centered. I like to be able to tweek the bubble level slightly so that it appears perfectly level when behind the gun.

_Windrider_ · Oct 13, 2024

3rdfocal said:
I do it with the scope mounted to the rifle. That's because of the most important part of the process:

Once the reticle is perfectly level, you've gotta ensure that whatever bubble level you'll be using when shooting gets installed/leveled at this time. Reticle/bubble level relationship is most important, gun is somewhat irrelevant (my ocd makes me level everything though). I've found that when behind the gun (shooting position), the angle you view the level can sometimes make it look like the bubble isn't centered. I like to be able to tweek the bubble level slightly so that it appears perfectly level when behind the gun.

Bubble levels are a crutch but can be useful when the terrain isn’t exactly flat.

If you are using the type of bubble level that is attached to the scope or the scope mount you either have to do it my way which is off the gun and level the reticle then level and secure the level? Otherwise if you do it while the gun is secured in a vice you now have to keep the gun reticle and bubble level all in the same plane at all times. Lots of points of failure. If you are using a bubble level that mounts to the top of a pic rail well it should be level no matter what and as long as you mounted your scope properly they will match.

3rdfocal · Oct 13, 2024

_Windrider_ said:
Bubble levels are a crutch but can be useful when the terrain isn’t exactly flat.

If you are using the type of bubble level that is attached to the scope or the scope mount you either have to do it my way which is off the gun and level the reticle then level and secure the level? Otherwise if you do it while the gun is secured in a vice you now have to keep the gun reticle and bubble level all in the same plane at all times. Lots of points of failure. If you are using a bubble level that mounts to the top of a pic rail well it should be level no matter what and as long as you mounted your scope properly they will match.

No... You can do it all on the gun very easily.

And levels aren't a crutch. They're pretty important if you're gonna hold-over at distance. If you're shooting from a flat surface and have a level horizon then it may not be that important.

TheOE800 · Oct 13, 2024

viking78 said:
I use Arrow Products USA Rock Vice and Scope mouting level.

Oh I like this... didn’t know I needed it https://www.arrowproductsusa.com/products/premium-scope-mount-tool

Rob01 · Oct 13, 2024

TheOE800 said:
Oh I like this... didn’t know I needed it https://www.arrowproductsusa.com/products/premium-scope-mount-tool

Because you don't but if you have $325 to waste. LOL

stanley_white · Oct 13, 2024

TheOE800 said:
Oh I like this... didn’t know I needed it https://www.arrowproductsusa.com/products/premium-scope-mount-tool

I got one of these, put a picatinny level on it, and I level my scopes on my tripod ball head.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09VT1MP7K

-Stan

Rob01 · Oct 13, 2024

I got one of these I put my scope on and level it. Never seen a need for anything but the rifle to mount a scope on.

Baron23 · Oct 13, 2024

TheOE800 said:
Oh I like this... didn’t know I needed it https://www.arrowproductsusa.com/products/premium-scope-mount-tool

Problem is the same as any other level…particularly spirit levels…how do you know they’re accurate?

If it’s not traceable to NIST (for big $$), IMO the best you can do is pick a level as your bench standard and go for it.

Even applies to those using a plumb bob…once the scope is mounted you then need to level the rifle (or have it cocked to the degree you chose…particularly for shooting off hand) to see if the reticle lines up. Same/same…pick a level and go for it. It may not be accurate in absolute terms but WTF…we aren’t trying to align proton beams in a collider.

Cheers

TheOE800 · Oct 13, 2024

Rob01 said:
Because you don't but if you have $325 to waste. LOL

stanley_white said:
I got one of these, put a picatinny level on it, and I level my scopes on my tripod ball head.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09VT1MP7K

-Stan

I use a SAC Final Scope Level in my tripod and I throw my gamechanger on the bottom shelf for stability. I do most of my leveling with it but I’m not totally happy with the ball joint/tie rod adjustment situation and rail space.

I’ve got a Badger Dead Level as well which has its own compromises.

I haven’t tried the flashlight method successfully.

Rob01 · Oct 13, 2024

TheOE800 said:
I use a SAC Final Scope Level in my tripod and I throw my gamechanger on the bottom shelf for stability. I do most of my leveling with it but I’m not totally happy with the ball joint/tie rod adjustment situation and rail space.

I’ve got a Badger Dead Level as well which has its own compromises.

I haven’t tried the flashlight method successfully.

Ever just open your bipod and set the rifle on the table? Plenty stable and costs nothing. Level the rifle then put scope in rings and level scope. Done.

Schütze · Oct 14, 2024

Rob01 said:
Ever just open your bipod and set the rifle on the table? Plenty stable and costs nothing. Level the rifle then put scope in rings and level scope. Done.

I admire your dedication, but these guys will never understand that they have a perfect working “level system” in their inner ears.

Instead they are trusting some $5 bubble level.

If one uses a tool, a string with a weight is all that’s needed.

DM1975 · Oct 14, 2024

Schütze said:
I admire your dedication, but these guys will never understand that they have a perfect working “level system” in their inner ears.

Instead they are trusting some $5 bubble level.

If one uses a tool, a string with a weight is all that’s needed.

I did sort of a test of this inadvertently yesterday. I ran a tall target test on one of my rifles. I used a 3’ carpenter level on the target and then lined up the reticle to the target. My scope level showed level and I did the test and the scope tracked perfectly true. I then shot at 200 yards on some steel I had hung on t posts. I had the rifle where I perceived it to be level and checked my scope level and was way off. What I came to realize that even though I was not using the t posts as a guide I inadvertently was associating level with it. The t posts were about 5° off from being straight up and down.

I’m sure that if I were shooting on a range with perfectly level ground and berms that this wouldn’t have been so much of an issue, but my range is not perfectly level. I think that what we see down range affects our perception of what is truly level, and personally I don’t always shoot nice level manicured ranges all the time. For me, I’ll stick to using a good bubble level.

I’m not trying to change your mind or argue, simply offering a different perspective. And I realize we aren’t talking scope levels, but it still translates I think. I also think a plumb line is a good way to level a scope as well.

Burdy · Oct 15, 2024

smoothy8500 said:
If the scope reticle is level/plumb when shooting, does anything else really matter? Asking for a friend....

This.

roosterpig · Oct 15, 2024

Not asking in a sarcastic asshole way. Asking because I’m genuinely curious.

How do you ensure the rifle is level in the vise? Chassis with a good “square” flats? Guess it’s important that the vise is pretty damn level?

OCD talking.. my bad.

JWG · Oct 15, 2024

I just use my cell phone and a levelling app. Accurate to within a tenth of a degree. Plenty fine for my NX8 on an SBR. Take it out of the case, true it to the rail, then put the scope in the rings and the phone on the top turret and true it to what the rail is at and bolt it down with the phone on the turret to monitor for change, should it occur.

smoothy8500 · Oct 16, 2024

Well, here is his "test" of a level scope and severely canted rifle at 1,000 yards.....yeah, no significant difference in impact_ so who cares if the rifle is perfectly level. All that matters is the reticle level/plumb.

Oldrifle · Oct 16, 2024

The only thing I'll say is that you need to make sure the bubble level you'll be using for firing is set at the same moment the reticle is exactly level.

nick112288 · Oct 17, 2024

carbonbased said:
Totally agree and I was riffing on something to hold the gun for other stuff, sorta responding to @LuvDog et al.

For scope mounting, for me, a tripod with an Arca or pic clamp is tits ahoy!

I think I just made a new saying up.

No, of course not, everything’s already been done lol gdamnit

Tits Ahoy (Video 2004) ⭐ 5.2 | Adult

2h 11m

m.imdb.com

smoothy8500 said:
Well, here is his "test" of a level scope and severely canted rifle at 1,000 yards.....yeah, no significant difference in impact_ so who cares if the rifle is perfectly level. All that matters is the reticle level/plumb.

I'm curious at what distance does a scope that isn't perfectly plumb with gravity come in to play? I'm not talking about ridiculously out of plumb, more so you set the scope in the rings, use the old eyeball to say yeah that crosshair is pretty straight up and down, lock it down and shoot.

Couple hundred yards? Normal hunting distance? How far off would you be doing long range precision?

And I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm genuinely asking when a not perfectly plumb scope comes in to play.

_Windrider_ · Oct 17, 2024

nick112288 said:
I'm curious at what distance does a scope that isn't perfectly plumb with gravity come in to play? I'm not talking about ridiculously out of plumb, more so you set the scope in the rings, use the old eyeball to say yeah that crosshair is pretty straight up and down, lock it down and shoot.

Couple hundred yards? Normal hunting distance? How far off would you be doing long range precision?

And I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm genuinely asking when a not perfectly plumb scope comes in to play.

smoothy8500 · Oct 17, 2024

nick112288 said:
….ridiculously out of plumb, How far off would you be doing long range precision?

Well, both the video and @Windrider chart shows a ridiculous cant equal 3” at 1,000 yards …

carbonbased · Oct 17, 2024

_Windrider_ said:
View attachment 8526338

smoothy8500 said:
Well, both the video and @Windrider chart shows a ridiculous cant equal 3” at 1,000 yards …

I’m not smart enough to reconcile @_Windrider_ ’s chart with @Lowlight ’s cant calcs here:

Gunsmithing - Scope level to a rifle

Reading over this resurrected thread got me thinking. And that's not always the best place for me. It's obvious that the only thing that matters is that the reticle is level when the shot is taken. The rifle could be canted a few degrees and as long as it was zeroed in that position with a level...

www.snipershide.com

But here’s lowlight/Frank’s conclusions (from Frank’s link, directly above):

Mike Casselton · Oct 18, 2024

Rob01 said:
Ever just open your bipod and set the rifle on the table? Plenty stable and costs nothing. Level the rifle then put scope in rings and level scope. Done.

Come on Rob.
That's too simple.

PEOPLE NEED GADGETS!!

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