Match barrel . . . Really?

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welditforyou

Private
Minuteman
Nov 17, 2022
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Land of the Deplorables
#1
I recently purchased a 21" 1:12 match barrel from a dedicated .22LR small business operator.
I also bought the bolt buffer, add on weights for the buffer, bolt silencer and other stuff to make
the AR-22 build more accurate. I have fired close to 500 rds of a variety of ammo beginning with
the bulk ammo of Federal 36gn 1200ish fps along with Brownings offerings and Aguila, CCI and
Blazer of about the same velocity. Also, I shot some SK auto match, Federal auto match and some
Norma tac-22 and CCI standard velocity ammo. The best grouping I could get was about 2" @50yds.
This is not what I was expecting from a "MATCH" barrel. I am very disappointed to say the least in the
accuracy of this "MATCH" barrel. I emailed the owner of the business who has these barrels made for
him and got about every excuse possible for the lack of accuracy like;
What scope are you using?
CCI standard velocity is the bare minimum for any accuracy.
It takes about 500 rds to get a good season on the barrel before the accuracy would settle in.
What lots am I firing?
Look . . . I get that some ammo is more accurate than another, but 500rds . . . really?
I bought a Savage axis xp in 6.5 CM and was getting MOA with Winchester white box right after unboxing.
What I'm getting at is. Am I expecting too much from what is supposed to be a match grade barrel?
To me it sounds like someone not standing behind their product and blaming anything else except themselves.
Some insight here would be helpful so as to not let this negativity get out of control.
I've seen some of the pics you guys have posted of pages of targets with 1/2" groups.
 
#2
1:12 twist for a 22LR, better have a 22" plus barrel, and it should be a bolt action, and the velocity of the round should be pretty high. Which in your situation meets none of the above.

CCI SV, Normal Tac-22, and Federal Auto Match are also not match ammo.

All the 1/2" groups you're most likely seeing are bolt action rifles, with better ammo.

If you had a Super KIDD 10/22 (16 twist barrel) you can get those 1/2" groups as well.
 
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#3
There’s a lot going on here in this post regarding your expectations compared to several things that are setting you behind the 8-ball when it comes to accuracy:
  1. A 1:12 twist in 22lr is extremely fast and out of the ordinary. A 1:16 is the traditional twist for 22LR. The only real benefit to faster twists is at longer distances. A 1:12 twist is going to be extremely picky with what ammo it likes.
  2. The Lapua test center themselves recommends several hundred rounds of 22lr down a new barrel before sending them the barrels action for lot testing. So there’s in fact something to be said about getting 300-500+ rounds through the barrel first
  3. You’re using a semi-auto 22lr, which are not known at all for super tight accuracy. You reference seeing things others post, which are all going to be bolt action rimfire with lot tested match ammo. I’ve seen JP rifles or Kidd’s post great results for semi auto 22lr rifles, both they have extremely high end components all throughout the rifle.
Regardless of what rifle you shoot, it takes a lot more than just a “match” barrel to be able to shoot .1 or .2 groups consistently…

Lot tested ammo, match ammo, no wind environments, light trigger, stable position, etc etc.

Not blaming you, nor was I a part of what results was promised to you with this barrel…but there are a couple of things going on here that are really going to hinder your ability to reach the results I think you have the expectations for. It takes much more than just a barrel.
 
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#5
Sorry, I should have mentioned that this is an AR-22 with a dedicated upper receiver with
the popular PSA 3.5# MATCH trigger.
I did get the SK auto match ammo after all the other stuff went through it. For the break-in
period is it ok to use this non match ammo or does it know I fed it the cheap stuff? Smile!
After some $300 for this barrel, then all the add on parts to go with the sales pitch for ACCURACY
it wasn't unrealistic to expect better performance than a 4 inch group at 100yds.
Good grief, that can be accomplished with a $125 Rossi.
 
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#7
littlepod said:
1:12 twist for a 22LR, better have a 22" plus barrel, and it should be a bolt action, and the velocity of the round should be pretty high. Which in your situation meets none of the above.

CCI SV, Normal Tac-22, and Federal Auto Match are also not match ammo.

All the 1/2" groups you're most likely seeing are bolt action rifles, with better ammo.

If you had a Super KIDD 10/22 (16 twist barrel) you can get those 1/2" groups as well.
Click to expand...
It's interesting that you would say this.
The guy who is "Bore Buddy" whatever his name is told me to shoot a bunch of CCI
standard Velocity through it and see what kind of groups I get. He never recommended
I get tenex or lapua. When I mentioned that the only twist rate I ever new of on a .22LR
was 1:16 he told me that no one knows why that what they use. I thought that was BS but
didn't argue the point at the time. He doesn't even offer anything any longer that the 21"
that I bought from him. I think my ill feelings are justified here. I know we all hate it when
things like this happen . . . . but they do.
I won't waste my time participating in the .22 games at the range.
That said. A guy at the range last Sunday had his new .22 and getting those 1/2" groups @50yds.
First time out and a ziplock bag of "mixed bag" ammo. Nothing match grade according to him.
Damn the luck! Maybe it'll tighten up after a few hundred more rounds.
It could happen.
Thanks for your input.
 
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#8
Is this your first or only 22 rifle?

The guy at the range last week, what rifle was he shooting? Could you shoot it in the future possibly?

None of the ammunition you listed in the first post has a reputation for accuracy, but since you are using a semiautomatic you might need to use these higher velocity types to reliably cycle the action. That said, I would still expect about a 1” grouping at 50 yards with most of them. Tuning my Kidds for decent reliability using standard velocity ammo (1100 fps or less) was time consuming and frustrating but ultimately got done.

The absolute lowest grade ammo I use is cci standard velocity. Some lots are better than others like all 22 ammo, including the high end match grade ammo tiers. Most of the matches I shoot using sk standard plus or sk rifle match or lapua center-x. Those typically group between 1-2” at 100 meters (109 yards) off the bench with a variety of rifles, both bolt and semiautomatic. At 50 yards I expect around .75” inch or better. 25 yards is a waste of time as any decent 22 should stack bullets into a dime sized group from a supported position. In reality I expect dime sized groups at 50 yards in good weather conditions, but I’ve had a lot of time , $ and effort into sorting my match rifles out.

As Littlepod pointed out, 1/12 twist rate is being experimented with for longer ranges but I cant see it being horribly detrimental at 50-100 yards either. However, all three ( two ceiners and one cmmg) of the 22lr AR conversion kits using a 1/9 or faster 5.56 barrel that I have seen on the range all shot some big groups at 50 yards, say 4” plus IIRC. As much as I hate to say it, you could try the aguila 60 grain and see if they will group with your combo as they supposedly are designed for faster twists.


Might as well tell us the barrel manufacturer
 
#10
I've got 3 10/22's that easily shoot one inch groups at 50, usually closer to 1/2 with CCI SV. If your plan is .22 matches you're limiting yourself with an AR style 22. 10/22's can do well but a bolt will generally do better.
 
#12
welditforyou said:
I recently purchased a 21" 1:12 match barrel from a dedicated .22LR small business operator.
I also bought the bolt buffer, add on weights for the buffer, bolt silencer and other stuff to make
the AR-22 build more accurate. I have fired close to 500 rds of a variety of ammo beginning with
the bulk ammo of Federal 36gn 1200ish fps along with Brownings offerings and Aguila, CCI and
Blazer of about the same velocity. Also, I shot some SK auto match, Federal auto match and some
Norma tac-22 and CCI standard velocity ammo. The best grouping I could get was about 2" @50yds.
This is not what I was expecting from a "MATCH" barrel. I am very disappointed to say the least in the
accuracy of this "MATCH" barrel. I emailed the owner of the business who has these barrels made for
him and got about every excuse possible for the lack of accuracy like;
What scope are you using?
CCI standard velocity is the bare minimum for any accuracy.
It takes about 500 rds to get a good season on the barrel before the accuracy would settle in.
What lots am I firing?
Look . . . I get that some ammo is more accurate than another, but 500rds . . . really?
I bought a Savage axis xp in 6.5 CM and was getting MOA with Winchester white box right after unboxing.
What I'm getting at is. Am I expecting too much from what is supposed to be a match grade barrel?
To me it sounds like someone not standing behind their product and blaming anything else except themselves.
Some insight here would be helpful so as to not let this negativity get out of control.
I've seen some of the pics you guys have posted of pages of targets with 1/2" groups.
Click to expand...
If it were me, I would get some better ammo and shoot a few boxes of several kinds before giving up.

I would get the following if you can find them:
SK Standard Plus
Norma Match
Wolf Match Extra

These aren't cheap, but they don't cost as much as Lapua CenterX or Eley Match, and the SK and Norma shoot well in all my .22s, including my 10/22s with Match barrels. Wolf shoots really well in one, but not all my .22s.

If you can't get decent groups with any of these, I would be looking for a different barrel, but that's just me.

Good luck! I know how frustrating it can be to throw $$$ at "accuracy" and come up short.
 
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#14
My Kidd 10/22 is a 1/2” at 50y gun. My TacSol barreled Ruger 10/22 is right behind it. Both with Lapua Center X. CCI SV can turn in some impressive groups, then throw a flier that doesn’t look like it belongs on the target.

Better ammo will shrink your groups at 50, some. But, I wouldn’t expect to go from a 2” group to a 1/2” group (or better) by ammo alone.
 
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#17
First try better ammo CCI SV and Norma Tac22 are on the low end for accuracy. Step up to the SK line like Match, Long range. Eley Club or Contact, before going to the higher grade ammo. Contact shoot way above it's price.

The AR platform will not shoot with a bolt gun, Kidd 10-22, or Volquartsen 10-22. My Kidd Supergrade will shoot 0.5" most of the time. half that in good conditions.
 
#18
@welditforyou:

Could you describe how the rifle is being supported during your tests? Front rest, rear rest, no rest....iron sights or scope....bench or run&gun wall type support.

Also how many rounds per group are you shooting.....3 rounds, 5rds, 10 rounds?

FWIW (disclaimer as to my lack of expertise in answering anything) I just started shooting bench rest (factory class) two months ago. Yesterday I was shooting off a concrete bench with a bipod and (edit) cheap third hand rear rest (too hard and could not squeeze the small rabbit ears). I was testing 6 types of standard velocity ammo and one high velocity ammo I had in my 'collection'. All were 40gr round nose. Shot 5 rds to 'condition' the barrel for the specific brand and then shot 10 rounds 'for score'. I had, but did not try, Federal Auto Match, Winchester M22, or other bulk ammos.

As expected the 10 round groups were normally bigger than the 5 round groups due to QC in manufacturing and QC in my skills (LOL).
And as expected, the more expensive the ammo the smaller the group size.

For 10 round groups I got ~1-1/4" C to C on CCI SV, Norma Tac 22 and Aguila 22 Super Extra and 1/2" C to C with Eley Team and Eley Match.
Norma Tac 22, CCI SV and Aguila 222 Super Extra all had at least one flyer in 10 rounds.

The one high velocity ammo was CCI Select (not cheap @ $10/50 here in California). It shot 5 rounds 7/16" and 10 rounds 11/16"

Edited to add setup:
sniper 2.jpg
 
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#19
I was really into trying some of the faster twist 22RF barrels a few years ago, so ordered a Bartlein 1-9tw 22RF blank. After reading here & on other forums of the accuracy problems that several guys with 1-9tw bbls were having, I held off on chambering & fitting mine, and it's still in the shipping box out in the shop. But more than a few guys have posted pretty decent results over the past year with 1-12tw bbls, though none that I've seen were in a semi-auto. And even with this statement, most shooters say that their 1-16tw bbls will out-shoot any of the faster twist bbls at 50yds.

If I had invested in the bbl you're talking about, I'd probably get as many different lots of SK LR Match as I could find to test in it. And I'm assuming that you've been cleaning the bore of your new barrel after testing with any of the ammo that has copper flash-coated hi vel bullets. Actually, even while shooting non-copper plated bullets, you should probably clean the bore pretty thoroughly to prevent a carbon ring from forming in the leade area ahead of the chamber.
 
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#20
OP, most of the probable causes of your accuracy issues have been covered here:
  • Low-end ammo fired in a
  • fast-twist barrel mounted in a
  • never-recognized-for-rimfire-accuracy AR platform.
Any one of these bullet points has a high probability of causing poor accuracy, but stacking them together? I'm not at all surprised at 2" 50-yard groups, and you can shoot 5,000 more rounds through that barrel and it's not going to give you what you were led to expect.

Unfortunately, I suspect that putting true match-grade ammo (Lapua Center-X/Midas+/X-Act, Eley Match/Tenex, RWS R50 / R100, etc) in that rifle would be like putting racing tires on a Civic equipped with a mild tune and a fart can and expecting it to run with Porsches.

I'm sorry you've put a fair amount of money into what you were told would be an accurate rifle. At the end of it all, if you want true "match" accuracy then buy a decent bolt-action rifle and be done. CZ 457 on the low end. Buy a standard-twist (1:16) barrel for your AR and use it for the plinker it's destined to be. People can go on and on about how their Kidd, Valquartzen, etc. autoloaders are super-accurate... but in all the rimfire matches I've shot over the last few years, I've never seen an autoloader do well at extended range (150+ yards). I have NEVER seen an AR-platform .22 in a match at all.

Good luck.
 
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#21
I also fell for that particular 1:12 barrel. Reached out to their CS and got all the same replies OP did, apparently I just have higher standards for what "match" entails. Even with fairly good ammo (SK, Lapua, Wolf) it won't shoot better than 3.5 MOA at 50 yards, while the same ammo will do <1 MOA in my Bergara. Best part is that soon after I reported my problems, this video coincidentally came out demonstrating what an incredibly accurate barrel it is...



...not. Like I said, clearly we have wildly different standards. Sucks since I like shooting the AR platform and wanted a good trainer, but I'll have to stick with 10/22s until Keystone gets around to responding to my emails.
 
#22
PappyM3 said:
Are you sure? It doesn’t darken/get too tight at 8x?
Click to expand...

welditforyou said:
I recently purchased a 21" 1:12 match barrel from a dedicated .22LR small business operator.
I also bought the bolt buffer, add on weights for the buffer, bolt silencer and other stuff to make
the AR-22 build more accurate. I have fired close to 500 rds of a variety of ammo beginning with
the bulk ammo of Federal 36gn 1200ish fps along with Brownings offerings and Aguila, CCI and
Blazer of about the same velocity. Also, I shot some SK auto match, Federal auto match and some
Norma tac-22 and CCI standard velocity ammo. The best grouping I could get was about 2" @50yds.
This is not what I was expecting from a "MATCH" barrel. I am very disappointed to say the least in the
accuracy of this "MATCH" barrel. I emailed the owner of the business who has these barrels made for
him and got about every excuse possible for the lack of accuracy like;
What scope are you using?
CCI standard velocity is the bare minimum for any accuracy.
It takes about 500 rds to get a good season on the barrel before the accuracy would settle in.
What lots am I firing?
Look . . . I get that some ammo is more accurate than another, but 500rds . . . really?
I bought a Savage axis xp in 6.5 CM and was getting MOA with Winchester white box right after unboxing.
What I'm getting at is. Am I expecting too much from what is supposed to be a match grade barrel?
To me it sounds like someone not standing behind their product and blaming anything else except themselves.
Some insight here would be helpful so as to not let this negativity get out of control.
I've seen some of the pics you guys have posted of pages of targets with 1/2" groups.
Click to expand...
Man, i feel for you. Welcome to the world of precision rimfire.

What sucks is not only do you have to find an ammo that your rifle likes, but also the particular lot of that ammo that your rifle likes. What I usually do is set a price limit on what I'm willing to spend and then get as many different lots of that ammo as I can to find a good lot and then buy a case or two of that good lot.

I shoot a Lilja barreled CZ 457. It typically runs about 40 fps slower than most other barrels of the same length. I usually shoot SK Semi Auto, but only 1 or 2 lots out of every 5 or 6 will give me the results I want.
 
#23
Here's a link to some targets I shot last summer. These were the first rounds down that barrel, and I bet I still haven't got 500 rnds through it. Too many other projects going on. I need to get back out with this one and see if it continues to impress. I have some SK ammo to test with it now too.

edit: Mine is post #44 on page 3.


I shot 3 rifles that day; my 18" Green Mtn barrel turned by Keystone Accuracy, the 21" 1:12 twist Borebuddy barrel, and the 16" Volquartsen LW barrel in the 10/22. I only put together the 10/22 out of curiosity to see if it shoots any better than any of my AR22s. It doesn't. The bolt by itself is heavier but it doesn't do anything the AR22 doesn't do. In fact, the magazines available for the AR22 are far superior to 10/22 mags, the barrel-to-upper receiver interface is a much better design in the AR22 making it much easier to free-float barrels, and there is a plethora of excellent match-grade triggers available for the AR for a lot less money.

There's a ton of discussion on the twist rate of 22LR barrels. The standard has always been 1:16 twist and Borebuddy has been experimenting with the faster twist rate and is fairly invested in it. Obviously, the OP is disappointed with resulting groups he's achieved. I wonder what kind of response he got from the folks at Borebuddy before he came on here blasting the product. I'd expect better than 2" at 50yds of course but what were his real expectations when he purchased a "match" barrel?
 
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#24
When it comes to rimfire, you really have to manage your expectations. You also have to be wary of internet claims of the very many rifles out there that will shoot MOA at 50 yards "all day long" with CCI SV ammo.

If you plan to get heavily into rimfire and don't have a chronograph, you're gonna need one. Ballistics is a whole Lotta applied physics. If you had a chronograph and took all of that ammunition and chronograph it while shooting, odds are that you may not be so POed about your equipment not performing once you take note of the variations in the velocities of the ammunition. For really match grade performing ammo, youre gonna want single digital SDs to start with.

What are my accuracy expectations? I want to be able to hit a 1" target at 100 yards and be able to hit a 1/2 inch target at 50 yards. I dont care about group sizes. I just want to be able to hit the target. When I'm lot testing, I do it on days when there is little to no wind and I want to be able to shoot 3900 out of 4000 or better for 4 consecutive cards. The cards I shoot consist of 40 targets with a bullseye 1/2" in diameter with a score value of 100 for hitting the bulls eyes, with the next outer ring having a value of 50. I run a lot of SK Semi auto because it's cheap and and as I, out of 5 different lots, I can usually find 1 or 2 that satisfy my requirements.
 
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#25
I agree with most of the above comments and still have questions. You didn't say what sort of "rest" you're using - is it an independently 'stable' rest, in that the rifle is 'fully supported' ? Like some sort of sled ? OR are you using bags or a bipod/bag or what. If you 'shoulder' the rifle, that could be your prob. As said, a semi is generally not that accurate but even my 2014 Marlin 60 'Factory' can stay under 1" with a "Low-cost" Tasco 12x scope if I use a sled or F&R bag setup.
As for ammo, I use CCI-SV for "Practicing my Form" but I don't expect better than 0.75xx" even in my CZ VMTR, so I don't use that in my 'better rifles'. I use SK Magazine for 'fouling' since it costs a bit less than the SK Rifle Match that most of my 22s prefer. That goes to 0.2-5xx" in my CZs. I don't compete so I don't buy anything better, but anything less is just for 'plinking' - Not for "serious shooting' !
 
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#26
Hey guys . . . for all who took the time to respond to my dilemma, thank you.
As for the brand/type of ammo, if it needs 500rds to "season" the barrel it seemed
silly to me to use the expensive/good stuff for that. As it is at this point I've come
very close or even past the 500 count. I don't mind spending the money for the good
stuff if it does what we all want it to. As for the rifle itself, I the CMMG kit to shoot .22
from a 5.56 barrel and had fun doing it. So I then allowed evolution to take place and
bought the parts for a dedicated upper receiver and put a Monstrum 6-24x54 FFP scope
on it. Looks great by the way. Pic to come. I knew the semi-auto would not be as accurate
as a bolt gun but geeze man, 4" @100yds . . . . my Rossi does that good and I got it on sale
for $119.99 from PSA. While at the range last week an O'l boy came by and introduced himself.
We talked for a bit. Come to find out he is the guy who sets up the 22 games and all stuff 22
that is competition related. He offered me his CZ457 to shoot this Saturday in the challenge shooting
those little critters (chicken up to ram). I am looking forward to this and if it works well for me, I will
get the CZ for my bolt gun. Isn't retirement fun? I'm not looking to compete with the likes of you guys
shooting your highly moded equipment. I'm just looking for fun and expect some accuracy to go along
with the claims of "MATCH". Now as for the barrel brand. I didn't want to be "that guy" who bad mouths
and blames and bitches about stuff. I hope the barrel gets the seasoning it seems to so disparately need.
The barrel I bought from BoreBuddy along with the BCG and all the upgrade parts for it. What's sad is
that I could have bought a new CZ457 for what I paid to build the dedicated upper receiver from this guy.
I'm really sorry for the lengthy post guys, but I'm trying to answer some of the questions that were asked.
I was shooting from a bag up front and a squishy bag in my off hand at the rear.
 
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#28
DownhillFromHere said:
OP, most of the probable causes of your accuracy issues have been covered here:
  • Low-end ammo fired in a
  • fast-twist barrel mounted in a
  • never-recognized-for-rimfire-accuracy AR platform.
Any one of these bullet points has a high probability of causing poor accuracy, but stacking them together? I'm not at all surprised at 2" 50-yard groups, and you can shoot 5,000 more rounds through that barrel and it's not going to give you what you were led to expect.

Unfortunately, I suspect that putting true match-grade ammo (Lapua Center-X/Midas+/X-Act, Eley Match/Tenex, RWS R50 / R100, etc) in that rifle would be like putting racing tires on a Civic equipped with a mild tune and a fart can and expecting it to run with Porsches.

I'm sorry you've put a fair amount of money into what you were told would be an accurate rifle. At the end of it all, if you want true "match" accuracy then buy a decent bolt-action rifle and be done. CZ 457 on the low end. Buy a standard-twist (1:16) barrel for your AR and use it for the plinker it's destined to be. People can go on and on about how their Kidd, Valquartzen, etc. autoloaders are super-accurate... but in all the rimfire matches I've shot over the last few years, I've never seen an autoloader do well at extended range (150+ yards). I have NEVER seen an AR-platform .22 in a match at all.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
You are correct on the 10-22. my Kidd Supergrade does well out to 250yds but falls apart past that. Lots of vertical.
 
#29
Just don't understand why you went the way you did? That twist rate is terrible. Did you put the upper together? Is it correct and properly torqued? What mags does it use and how does it run in general?

Send the barrel back along with your targets. Ask "Buddy" to shoot it but first ask what is typical from his "match" barrel. You may just have a bad barrel. It happens. They should be concerned and want to help you. Its their product and reputation and manufactures cant always assume that the issue is us right away.

Don't give up on the AR22 if that is really what you want based on this experience or the shitty drop in conversions. Tippmann was previously mentioned and they are truly awesome! I bought their 11.5" 22 pistol to mirror my primary AR and to shoot run and gun and Scout style rimfire shoots. With a red dot and 3x magnifier this shoots 1" groups or better at 50 yards with the better target/match ammos. I was so impressed not only with the accuracy but it runs flawless. It forced me to buy their 16" AR22 and that has a 5.5-30 Burris on it and it shoots better than 1/2 at 50 yards. I cant ask nor do I expect anything better from a semi auto. I have both a RimX and a Vudoo that see a lot of KYL racks. My expectations from a rimfire bolt gun are better than .3 at 50 and .75 at 100.

Go over your build again component by component and keep pressure on Buddy to make it right if it is a barrel issue.
 
#30
Not sure if this was a joke, you have picked about the worst of all systems to try for accuracy. Note that when seasoning barrel you are also laying down a lube layer and they are all different and don’t like each other. Even the fast twist team are only using 1/13-1/14. Your barrel is a big ?. That makes your upper another ?. No name scope is a question mount and unknown rest. Rimfire accuracy is a tough science and you threw a ton of variables into an upper and are expecting great results.
 
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#32
hlee said:
500 rounds is crazy for seasoning a barrel. I clean every 200-300 in my Kidd. It takes about 10 to get it shooting after a cleaning.
Click to expand...
they're saying that it takes 500 rounds for initial barrel break in for speed to stabilize. this is best practice for lot testing to have a well used barrel that has several hundred rounds down it. then clean it, put a few foulers down and see how she groups after that.
with centerfire we use 50-100 break in depending on how overbore.
 
#35
It gets better. The guy told me not to clean it.
Some of the post are starting to sound a little smart assed.
I hope I'm wrong about that. I went the way I did because I really didn't know a lot about the
science of the .22LR and all the VARIABLES. I wasn't expecting to shoot next to any of you guys.
I was just trying to include this into my range day with my .308 and 6.5CM and the 5.56 modern
sporting rifles. I also didn't think that the AR would be so horribly inaccurate. I did know some
spend big money on their equipment to play the 22 games and challenges and that's fine.
I just wasn't going to dig that deep into my pocket to create a 2K$ 22 plinker. The fella that's
letting me use his CZ on Saturday shoots a variety of Anschutz only because his dad had a gun shop
back in the 80's. Geeze, I wasn't expecting 1/2" groups on the 100yd line but I was hoping for that @
50. Youtube showed a guy making that claim with CCI sv. This is also what my range friend runs thru
his. At this point I wish I had known more and bought the CZ in the first place. I love my CZ Scorpion.
Shooting for 6 or 7 cents a round is a lot of fun, but not if you have to dump a grand into a rifle to do it.
Thanks for you insight knowledge. I am now better armed . . . . smile!
 
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#37
welditforyou said:
He offered me his CZ457 to shoot this Saturday in the challenge shooting
those little critters (chicken up to ram). I am looking forward to this and if it works well for me, I will
get the CZ for my bolt gun
Click to expand...
I haven't seen a 457 yet that doesn't shoot well - assuming it's fed decent ammo. Having a box of rounds say "Match" on it means absolutely nothing. Most of the high-end .22 brands/labels actually don't use the word "match" - and my remaining stock of RWS R100 actually uses the word "Matchless" in its labeling!

What is "well?" I'd say 3/8" at 50 for 10-shot groups at 50 yards, 1" or slightly more at 100. A nationally respected rimfire builder (Modacam Custom Rifles) who worked on my Rim-X told me that no .22LR rifle is capable of shooting sub-MOA 100-yard groups on a consistent basis. The limitation is the ammo, not the rifle. Stay at this awhile and you'll learn why. Yes, I've produced any number of 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards with both my Vudoo and Rim-X. But the next group will open up to the more typical inch or so.

--long-ish example follows--
Not long after the 457 variants came to market, I met a guy at my "home" range with one - I think it was either the Varmint or MTR.

He wasn't happy - getting 1.5+ inch groups at 50 yards. I was shooting rimfire that day. I asked him about the rifle... he said [paraphrasing], " I thought these things were supposed to be accurate."

His ammo was sitting next to the rifle on his bench. One of those big jugs of bulk ammo.

I gave him a box of Wolf Match Target (pre-2018 lot, it was rebranded SK Standard+). He was getting 1/2-inch groups from the outset. I told him performance would likely improve even more as the SK lube coated the bore more evenly. He was ecstatic.

Interestingly, though, I ran into him a few weeks later and he was perplexed again. He had bought a couple of bricks of Wolf Match Target, and it didn't shoot nearly as well as what I gave him. I pointed out that his newly purchased ammo was NOT the same as what I gave him - Wolf Match Target manufactured after 2018 (I think that's the year) is rebranded Eley Club - different manufacturers, VERY different lubes.
--------

There's a LOT of great info about .22 rifles and ammo here on SH. Decent rimfire ammo is not cheap, it can be hard to find, and different lots of the same brand/SKU may shoot disappointingly differently (read about "lot testing"). SK Standard+ is widely regarded as the best "cheap" ammo at around $7 per 50. Lapua Center-X is great mid-range-cost at around $14-15 per 50. Eley and RWS come to mind as other quality brands at similar price points. The very best .22 SKUs run nearly $30 per box. If you get into .22 deep enough, you'll learn about the differences - and why finding and KEEPING the ammo your rifle likes can be frustrating.

Good luck, enjoy the ride.
-----Edit: The better CZ 457s (Varmint, MTR and similar) can be difficult to find. A new owner told me recently he got his by getting on a wait list at his local shop; it took a couple months I believe he said.

Edit 2: Beware videos and photos of "unicorn groups." I place zero value in a photo of one superb group. I want to see at least 10 five-shot groups, or a 1-inch grid with single rounds fired at each line crossing. A buddy of mine sent his Vudoo into Lapua's AZ test center; it produced the record 10-shot 100-meter (109 yard) group of something like .4 inches. I asked him to show me the entire test - multiple 10-shot groups. Yep. There was the .4" group, right there amongst half a dozen 1" groups.
 
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#38
welditforyou said:
Here's the link to the website.
Perhaps you guys will see what I obviously didn't.
Knowing what I know now, I would never have bought that barrel or the other parts to go along with it.
Click to expand...
it depends on what qualifies to you as "match"
you clearly should have called and asked this guy about accuracy expectations.
Or he lied hard, idk.
either way, that's a cheap bottom tier semi auto ar 22. 2 inches at 50 yards with cci SV is totally appropriate and you'll be super lucky to get it to where you want with tenex or black box or centerX or whatever.
he offers to clean and lap your barrel for 170$, omg what a joke. I'll never buy anything from that clown. I wouldn't even want him touching my barrel.
 
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#39
CZ bolt guns can shoot really well and can be be, with a little work be very competitive. The problem is that you said you wanted 1/2” groups with an AR, that can be real tough to do. you wanted to do it yourself to save money, ok, again tough to do especially for someone not familiar with it. Your expectations were just not realistic. Sorry, no easy fix. 22RF uppers that will meet your expectations are $2k and up. Easy button is a good match 10-22, but not an AR!
 
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#40
oldrifleman said:
Easy button is a good match 10-22, but not an AR!
Click to expand...
Unfortunately that's been my experience, but why? What makes a 10/22 more inherently accurate than an AR .22 with a theoretically superior barrel attachment method and trigger options? My tuned 10/22 carbines with OEM pencil barrels tend to shoot as good or better than my AR with its fancy "match" barrel, and my full custom 10/22s (with Shilen and Feddersen barrels) are just about as accurate as my bolt guns.
 
#41
Cody S said:
it depends on what qualifies to you as "match"
you clearly should have called and asked this guy about accuracy expectations.
Or he lied hard, idk.
either way, that's a cheap bottom tier semi auto ar 22. 2 inches at 50 yards with cci SV is totally appropriate and you'll be super lucky to get it to where you want with tenex or black box or centerX or whatever.
he offers to clean and lap your barrel for 170$, omg what a joke. I'll never buy anything from that clown. I wouldn't even want him touching my barrel.
Click to expand...
I did call him!
 
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#42
well don't let me throw too much shade without at least trying some expensive match ammo.
I sure as shit have been wrong before, it could be the most accurate POS ever made.
but I doubt it.
 
#44
As mentioned above...with the fast twist barrel I would get a box or 2 of some 60g ammo and try it before I threw in the towel...you could probably find a couple of boxes of 60g Aguila local.
 
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#46
idk but if yall want to buy a "match grade" barrel blank those start at about 400-500$, then you need reciever and machine work, etc.
if you think 500$ will buy you a match grade upper in 2024 you just don't have realistic expectations.
I went with a cheap custom 22lr, cost me 2k sans scope.
 
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#48
I have bought several Beyer's 22LR barrels with a CMMG BCG. A 16", 18" and 8".

I have patterned the 8" since it's on an SBR upper, but the 16" and 18" out of the box shoot less than 1/2" at 50yds with CCI Standard Velocity. Usually better. SK ammo is even better. I am 99% sure they are 1:16 twist.

Not sure who the brand was, but Beyer's are solid when you need a replacement.
 
#49
oldrifleman said:
Who chambered this “match grade” barrel? And who made the blank? How was the upper assembled?
Click to expand...
Exactly what he said, ^^^^^

So went on the bore buddy website... if I seen it right... $195 for a finished barrel. Sorry but you get what you pay for.

They say it's a button rifled barrel but don't say who makes it for them. You could have a twist uniformity problem, bore and groove size issues, check the muzzle crown... etc...

They say Bentz chamber... that's a good all around chamber but not my pick if you want top accuracy.

I've shot plenty of semi auto guns with a good barrel on it and they shot excellent. For a while years back my small bore gun was a AR15 with a dedicated 22LR upper with a navy conversion unit. Shot as good as any bolt gun on the line. They just didn't like me shooting a semi auto even though I had to single load it for small bore on league night as they didn't like the empty brass ejecting out of the gun the way it did so they would put me on the far right of the shooting line so nobody was on my right.

The OP should ask the seller who made the blanks and who did the chamber work etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
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