Over standard at .200" line, can make remedy?

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

Hello to all!

I've some 2nd hand 6,5x47 Lapua brass that I received with my rifle, but I don't know how many reload was passed before I started to use this.

Now these cases show, at .200 line, measures greater that the standard SAAMI and measures obtained resizing the brass with a Forster FL Bushing die.
When, after FL resizing, I insert the brass on the chamber, close the bolt and after open the bolt whe have a click/clickering at the up of the bolt.

I read on the Net that the cause of the increasing of the quote at .200 line are a sign t'ha the brass are at end of is life, lost primers, head separation, bla bla bla...

Now I ask if are some remedy for this problem.
Ring die?
Small base body die?
Recicling bin?
Other?

Thanks, Camillo

Evintos · Oct 18, 2024

Paper clip test to check for impending case head separation. If you feel nothing, small base die.

AllenOne1 · Oct 18, 2024

Cortina mandrel die. It was developed for this exact issue. Clickers. It resizes the base another .0005". You don't have to run a mandrel in the die if that's not part of your reloading process.

spife7980 · Oct 18, 2024

Ring die or small base would work if you can get one. But that sort of defeats the purpose of saving money and not getting new lapua in the first place.

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

Evintos said:
Paper clip test to check for impending case head separation. If you feel nothing, small base die.

Hello, can you please explain better the test?
I have also a borescope.

Thanks

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

AllenOne1 said:
Cortina mandrel die. It was developed for this exact issue. Clickers. It resizes the base another .0005". You don't have to run a mandrel in the die if that's not part of your reloading process.

Hello, yes I know the Cortina mandrells die, and I have also 21st Century mandrells.
But for now I would use my stuff, body die from Redding, standard full length die from rcbs, full length bushing die from Forster, neck bushing die from Forster.

I have a dubt for a FL Bushing die of Forster, a the .200 line I obtain 0.472".
Out of the SAAMI specs mentioned on the Forster site about the description of the die.
I'm countraried about this mispecifocation.
SAAMI declare 0.470" on my rifle 0.471" are a good result.

With rcbs FL standard die i obtain the result that are good for eliminate the clickering.

I thing the body can make a good result.

I think to contact Forster about this problem...

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

spife7980 said:
Ring die or small base would work if you can get one. But that sort of defeats the purpose of saving money and not getting new lapua in the first place.

Right!
Hello,
I have the stuff above mentioned.
If I can I would resolve with my stuff...

Halfnutz · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello, can you please explain better the test?
I have also a borescope.

Straighten a paper clip or wire and put a small 90 bend in one end. Use it to feel for thinning on the inside of the case wall near the case head. The paper clip will "catch" at the point of thinning.

Evintos · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello, can you please explain better the test?
I have also a borescope.

Thanks

Halfnutz explained it. Link below for some pics.

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/12/case-head-separation-how-to-detect-potential-problems/

straightshooter1 · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello, can you please explain better the test?
I have also a borescope.

Thanks

I find using the paperclip method works very well. It's a fast and effective way to test the cases, especially once you get the hang of it. I use is regularly after sizing brass that either has a lot of firings or seems to show a sign of case head separation on the outside. When running that bent end of the paperclip along the interior surface of the case, you can feel wither is slides smoothly all the way or feel some kind of indentation.

This is a pic on my paperclip:

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

Hello gentlemen,
please can you tell me how I can find info about the "ring die"?

Thanks

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

The SAAMI specs declared on the Forster FL Bushing die product description are intended for 0.470 diameter a the .200 line?

Thanks

Dolomite · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello gentlemen,
please can you tell me how I can find info about the "ring die"?

Thanks

Look on accurate shooter for uthink uknow. He makes the ring dies.

Evintos · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
The SAAMI specs declared on the Forster FL Bushing die product description are intended for 0.470 diameter a the .200 line?

Thanks

You're going to have to contact Forster for exact specification for their die because 6.5x47 is CIP spec. CIP doesn't really use the .200 datum line in the prints.

For CIP
P1 chamber spec is 11.99mm, which converts to 0.4720 inch.
P1 cartridge spec is 11.95mm, which converts to 0.4704 inch.

A resized brass case around the .200 line is probably going to be around 0.4714 inch (Manson) depending on your reamer. Some reamers call for 0.4717 (JGS) at the .200 line, so it varies.

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/6-5-x-47-lapua-en.pdf

RTTY · Oct 18, 2024

Evintos said:
You're going to have to contact Forster for exact specification for their die because 6.5x47 is CIP spec. CIP doesn't really use the .200 datum line in the prints.

For CIP
P1 chamber spec is 11.99mm, which converts to 0.4720 inch.
P1 cartridge spec is 11.95mm, which converts to 0.4704 inch.

A resized brass case around the .200 line is probably going to be around 0.4714 inch (Manson) depending on your reamer. Some reamers call for 0.4717 (JGS) at the .200 line, so it varies.

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/6-5-x-47-lapua-en.pdf

Hello attachment from Forster description.

Evintos · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello attachment from Forster description.

I am aware. It is a generic description for the sizing die. For cartridges that do not follow SAAMI specifications, like the 6.5x47 Lapua, which follows CIP specifications, you should email and ask Forster directly for information. There is no established SAAMI specification for 6.5x47.

Mike Casselton · Oct 18, 2024

@powdahound76
When you bought the used 6-BR brass a couple of years ago, wasn't it hard to chamber?

Didn't you fix the .200 line using a shortened shell holder and a 280 or 30-06 die?

You could probably do the same with a 6.5 Creedmoor die.

The key is to take a few thousands off of the top of the shell holder

powdahound76 · Oct 18, 2024

.308 SB die

Never had to mess with a shellholder.

But had my belt sander and dremel at the ready!!!

Or a piece of known flat thick steel and sandpaper….

straightshooter1 · Oct 18, 2024

RTTY said:
The SAAMI specs declared on the Forster FL Bushing die product description are intended for 0.470 diameter a the .200 line?

Thanks

My fired brass from the my drop in Krieger barrel is .470" at the .200 line. My standard Forster FL sizing die sizes all my .308 Lapua and Alpha brass down to .4690, and most other brass too. But interestingly to me, for my .308 Peterson brass, that same die doesn't size them much as they still measure .4700. Perhaps the Peterson brass thickness at the brass at the .200 line is producing more springback after sizing???

Andrew863 · Oct 19, 2024

If u can find a 308 small base die, that should fix your issue. I just ran into the same issue a couple months ago. Luckily I had a rcbs sb die laying around.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

Evintos said:
I am aware. It is a generic description for the sizing die. For cartridges that do not follow SAAMI specifications, like the 6.5x47 Lapua, which follows CIP specifications, you should email and ask Forster directly for information. There is no established SAAMI specification for 6.5x47.

Hello, on many diagram of 6,5x47 Lapua the quotes at .200 line (web area ) are 11,95mm or .470".
Thi is not a my think but specifications of the cartdridge diagrams.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

Andrew863 said:
If u can find a 308 small base die, that should fix your issue. I just ran into the same issue a couple months ago. Luckily I had a rcbs sb die laying around.

I can resolve with rcbs FL standard die but this squeeze a lot the neck....

I have also a body die from Redding and today , because have a rainy day, I hope for some test whit this...

Andrew863 · Oct 19, 2024

U need a small base die. A std die won't size any more then what u currently have. Where are u located?

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

However my disappointment is due to the fact that if you mention that are maked with precise specifications (SAAMI, CIP or together) they must respect them. Because since the x47 Lapua is a parenti case of the .308 family and the 308 has 0.470 at .200 line, the x47 Lapua must also have that quote.

I mailed to Forster and I hoper for a professional reply...

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

Andrew863 said:
U need a small base die. A std die won't size any more then what u currently have. Where are u located?

Hello I'm from Italy

Dolomite · Oct 19, 2024

Try a small base 260 or 270 die. It sizes the base without touching the shoulder.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

Dolomite said:
Try a small base 260 or 270 die. It sizes the base without touching the shoulder.

Hello, why not a small base for 308?

Dolomite · Oct 19, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello, why not a small base for 308?

The small base die sizes the neck and body too small.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

Evintos said:
I am aware. It is a generic description for the sizing die. For cartridges that do not follow SAAMI specifications, like the 6.5x47 Lapua, which follows CIP specifications, you should email and ask Forster directly for information. There is no established SAAMI specification for 6.5x47.

Also of Forster follow the minimum CIP quote for the cartdridge the FL die that I've make a case more than this minimum...
.472 are a "bit more"...

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

There are a measures of the base of the Forster FL Bushing die...

straightshooter1 · Oct 19, 2024

RTTY said:
There are a measures of the base of the Forster FL Bushing die...

That appears to be about .010+" larger than my standard Forster FL sizing die.

Evintos · Oct 19, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello, on many diagram of 6,5x47 Lapua the quotes at .200 line (web area ) are 11,95mm or .470".
Thi is not a my think but specifications of the cartdridge diagrams.

The PDF of the cartridge/chamber spec that I linked is directly from the CIP website. P1 is the diameter of the case right after the extractor and the .200 line would be above that. P1 spec of 11,95mm isn't the .200 line. The P1 spec is at 3,85mm which converts to 0.1515748", which is .0484" short of the .200 line (for the 6.5x47 lapua). The .200 line would be where the green line is, which is 5,08mm which CIP specs don't list. Because of the shellholder, you'll generally never be able to size down to the P1 line.

RTTY said:
There are a measures of the base of the Forster FL Bushing die...

RTTY said:
However my disappointment is due to the fact that if you mention that are maked with precise specifications (SAAMI, CIP or together) they must respect them. Because since the x47 Lapua is a parenti case of the .308 family and the 308 has 0.470 at .200 line, the x47 Lapua must also have that quote.

I mailed to Forster and I hoper for a professional reply...

Based off the pic on your die with the 0.476" measurement, it's likely they used a slightly modified SAAMI 308 winchester reamer to make the 6.5x47 die, which would be incorrect for the CIP specification. Pic below of highlighted SAAMI 308 Winchester specs that Forster likely used. 0.4738 + .002 = 0.4758 (round up for 0.476"). The pic also means the die is at the maximum of SAAMI 308win rifle chamber spec and not minimum.

RTTY said:
Hello, why not a small base for 308?

You can use a small base 308 winchester body die, pic below of the measurement for my Forster Small base FLS 308win die (remove the expander if using FLS die) to size the .200 line. The process would be, small base 308 die first, then full length size with the proper 6.5x47 lapua die.

The green highlighted dimension of the 308 winchester SAAMI spec will correspond to the P2 dimension for CIP. For 6.5x47 is 11,59mm (-0.20) diameter cartridge and 11,63mm chamber min. The 308 winchester die should be close enough (308 win is slightly longer than the 6.5x47 case) to size the P2 dimension down to around 11,56mm (+0.05) and won't distort the brass in a major way that a 6.5x47 sizing die can't fix and size the .200 line (5,08mm) small enough so you no longer have clickers.

XLR308 · Oct 19, 2024

I use a dedicated tool for that measurement but rarely use it since I set my dies correctly to begin with.
The last time I had to use it but really didn't need to was I purchased a quantity of brass from another Hide member in 6.5 CM that was shot though an Accuracy International rifle with a fairly sloppy MIL/LE chamber that didn't give well with my match chamber done by Kelbly but no harm no fowl.
I had a 50% fail rate after full length sizing but shit happens.
The brass is still 2000% usable but just not inmy minimum spec match chamber.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

Evintos said:
The PDF of the cartridge/chamber spec that I linked is directly from the CIP website. P1 is the diameter of the case right after the extractor and the .200 line would be above that. P1 spec of 11,95mm isn't the .200 line. The P1 spec is at 3,85mm which converts to 0.1515748", which is .0484" short of the .200 line (for the 6.5x47 lapua). The .200 line would be where the green line is, which is 5,08mm which CIP specs don't list. Because of the shellholder, you'll generally never be able to size down to the P1 line.

View attachment 8527961

Based off the pic on your die with the 0.476" measurement, it's likely they used a slightly modified SAAMI 308 winchester reamer to make the 6.5x47 die, which would be incorrect for the CIP specification. Pic below of highlighted SAAMI 308 Winchester specs that Forster likely used. 0.4738 + .002 = 0.4758 (round up for 0.476"). The pic also means the die is at the maximum of SAAMI 308win rifle chamber spec and not minimum.

You can use a small base 308 winchester body die, pic below of the measurement for my Forster Small base FLS 308win die (remove the expander if using FLS die) to size the .200 line. The process would be, small base 308 die first, then full length size with the proper 6.5x47 lapua die.

The green highlighted dimension of the 308 winchester SAAMI spec will correspond to the P2 dimension for CIP. For 6.5x47 is 11,59mm (-0.20) diameter cartridge and 11,63mm chamber min. The 308 winchester die should be close enough (308 win is slightly longer than the 6.5x47 case) to size the P2 dimension down to around 11,56mm (+0.05) and won't distort the brass in a major way that a 6.5x47 sizing die can't fix and size the .200 line (5,08mm) small enough so you no longer have clickers.

View attachment 8527994
View attachment 8527997

Hello,
yes .200 line or web are are siatuated a bit upper than P1, not precisely a the green line that you had marked.
I post one photo.

But at .200" line the measure are minor than the P1 line, the case body have a conical format.
So not 0.484"/12,294mm but I think less than the 0.4705"/11,95mm of the P1.
Tomorrow I make a measure.
If you look a the P2 the measure are 11,50mm, the case body are not straight format.

The area near at P1, responsable of clickering can be reformed/sized with the die, I reformed/sized some case with P1 over measure today with FL rcbs and body and the body Redding and the area of P1 was worked and the clickering are solved.

This is the original saami .308 Winchester drawing, a the P1 measure are 0.4709", not 0.476", or I misunderstod or you are wrong.
I don't speak about chamber measures but of cartdridge measures.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

XLR308 said:
I use a dedicated tool for that measurement but rarely use it since I set my dies correctly to begin with.
The last time I had to use it but really didn't need to was I purchased a quantity of brass from another Hide member in 6.5 CM that was shot though an Accuracy International rifle with a fairly sloppy MIL/LE chamber that didn't give well with my match chamber done by Kelbly but no harm no fowl.
I had a 50% fail rate after full length sizing but shit happens.
The brass is still 2000% usable but just not inmy minimum spec match chamber.View attachment 8528037

Hello,
my cases also are 2000% usable but the clickering are insopportabile and if resolvible I would resolve it.

Evintos · Oct 19, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello,
yes .200 line or web are are siatuated a bit upper than P1, not precisely a the green line that you had marked.
I post one photo.

But at .200" line the measure are minor than the P1 line, the case body have a conical format.
So not 0.484"/12,294mm but I think less than the 0.4705"/11,95mm of the P1.
Tomorrow I make a measure.
If you look a the P2 the measure are 11,50mm, the case body are not straight format.

The area near at P1, responsable of clickering can be reformed/sized with the die, I reformed/sized some case with P1 over measure today with FL rcbs and body and the body Redding and the area of P1 was worked and the clickering are solved.

This is the original saami .308 Winchester drawing, a the P1 measure are 0.4709", not 0.476", or I misunderstod or you are wrong.
I don't speak about chamber measures but of cartdridge measures.

You're misunderstanding. The green line is not literal. P1 spec is the .152 line (.200 - .152 = .484), the P1 is 0.484" shorter than the .200 line, because of this, you can't use the P1 spec to try and compare it with the .200 line spec.

Your case when fired will expand to fit your chamber. When you're resizing cases, you're not necessarily sizing it all the way back to minimum or maximum SAAMI or CIP cartridge specs, you're sizing them to a degree that so that it would fit well within the chamber of your barrel. This COULD but not necessarily WILL result in a case sized to within SAAMI or CIP min/max cartridge spec or it would be above max cartridge spec but still smaller than chamber min spec, or it could be sized somewhere within SAAMI or CIP chamber spec. In any case, the SAAMI or CIP cartridge spec measurements are irrelevant except for comparison with factory ammo because you have the actual barrel's chamber that you need size to.

The Forster die you have that is measuring .476 would indicate that the die was machined with specifications closer to parent case 308 winchester max chamber spec than min (even though it's 6.5x47). So because Forster die advertises as sized so that it can fit SAAMI min chamber specs, the die was manufactured incorrectly, because one area measures at max.

Your Forster die measures 0.476 and your measured case around the .200 datum line is showing 0.473. If 0.473 is the result after the RCBS or Redding die and it solved the clicker issue, but a die sized with the Forster die results in clickers, you can infer that your chamber at the .200 line is somewhere around 0.474" or 0.475", and you're not likely to be able to make the Forster work well for your particular barrel's chamber (because it's around 0.001 or 0.002 oversized).

Because your Forster die is "oversized" (even though it's still within SAAMI spec), any case sized with that die, will have trouble fitting in a barrel that was machined to a chamber spec that is smaller than that particular die.

RTTY · Oct 19, 2024

SAAMI specs and cip specs chamber measures are identical.
The P1 for the x47 Lapua and .308 Win are almost the same.
At the .200 line the diameter of the case must necessarily be smaller than at P1.
At P1 on the case sized with FL Forster the measure are over the specs of SAAMI ad CIP.
0.4705 max case diameter for P1 for also the specs, SAAMI and cip.

0.473 are the diameter at P1 abtainet with Forster FL Bushing die.
Over the cartdridge quotes specs from SAAMI and cip.
With Redding body and FL rcbs the diameter at P1 are 0.471, a bit more than the specs but not clickering.

I hope I'm explained.

Evintos · Oct 19, 2024

RTTY said:
SAAMI specs and cip specs chamber measures are identical. No, because SAAMI spec both cartridge and chamber for 6.5x47 lapua does not exist. Can't be identical if one of them does not exist. If it did, it would be on the official document from SAAMI. I don't know where you're getting this mythical 6.5x47 Lapua SAAMI spec from.
https://saami.org/technical-information/ansi-saami-standards/
https://saami.org/technical-information/cartridge-chamber-drawings/

The P1 for the x47 Lapua and .308 Win are almost the same. Almost but not exact. this is a situation in which 0.001 does matter, as your practical experience/results is clearly showing.
At the .200 line the diameter of the case must necessarily be smaller than at P1.
At P1 on the case sized with FL Forster the measure are over the specs of SAAMI ad CIP. P1 cartridge spec again won't matter. Put a case in your shell holder and take a look at how far the top of your shell holder covers above the case extractor groove. Resizing generally doesn't size down to the P1 datum. You resize relative to your chamber. The .200 line should be smaller than the .200 line of your chamber for feeding without clickers. It does not have to be within SAAMI or CIP cartridge spec in the handloading process.
0.4705 max case diameter for P1 for also the specs, SAAMI and cip. Again, cartridge spec does not matter and SAAMI spec for the 6.5x47 Lapua cartridge does not exist. Your case will fireform into your chamber spec. You do not need to resize down to cartridge spec for proper function.

0.473 are the diameter at P1 abtainet with Forster FL Bushing die. You can then infer that your chamber at .200 line is less than 0.473 since you have clickers at around 0.473
Over the cartdridge quotes specs from SAAMI and cip. Again, does not matter, your case fireforms into your chamber spec. You resize according to your chamber,

Side note - 0.473 is for P1 is within CIP chamber spec for 6.5x47 Lapua, which calls for 11,99mm (nominal) +0,03mm tolerance (noted in Annexe III, accessible in the Appendix column), 12,02mm = 0.47322835 inch.

https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/en/tdcc_public <- this is a direct link to the official CIP list.

With Redding body and FL rcbs the diameter at P1 are 0.471, a bit more than the specs but not clickering. This your practical result, the Redding Body and RCBS FLS die work. You can infer that your chamber is larger than 0.471 but smaller in diameter than 0.473. Use the Redding Body or RCBS FLS die for resizing with your particular rifle's barrel. No need to get obsessed with trying to size it down to CIP cartridge spec.

I hope I'm explained.

RTTY · Oct 20, 2024

Hello,
ok SAAMI specs for 6,5x47 Lapua doesn't exist, so whi Forster mention there on the 6,5x47 Lapua description ?

Anywere the max diameter for 6,5x47 Lapua case at P1 are 11,95mm = 0.4705"
Stop.

Not 308 paragon or other parent case, only measures from CIP specs for 6,5x47 Lapua.
Stop.

The minimum chamber diameter for the CIP specs are 11,99mm=0.472"
Tolerances about +.001"?
But not all reamers or other type of working make a same result on tolerances.

Not obsession for me dear...
The FL die for 6,5x47 Lapua does make a die resized with the minimum specifications for this cartdridge, not like at ....
The die are out CIP specifications!
The die for the 6,5x47 Lapua doesn't can make referring a the SAAMI specs because there are not SAAMI specs for this caliber.
Stop!

Thanks again.

Evintos · Oct 20, 2024

RTTY said:
Hello,
ok SAAMI specs for 6,5x47 Lapua doesn't exist, so whi Forster mention there on the 6,5x47 Lapua description ?

The minimum chamber diameter for the CIP specs are 11,99mm=0.472"
Tolerances about +.001"?
But not all reamers or other type of working make a same result on tolerances.

Thanks again.

Response quoted below of post #16.

Evintos said:
I am aware. It is a generic description for the sizing die. For cartridges that do not follow SAAMI specifications, like the 6.5x47 Lapua, which follows CIP specifications, you should email and ask Forster directly for information. There is no established SAAMI specification for 6.5x47.

If you go to Forster's website and use the drop down menu to select any caliber of die, the "Description" text does not change. The website description was certainly typed by a sales/marketing/web developer employee and not someone that knows the technical details of the product.

A revised generic marketing description for the product line that still has no technical details would be -

"This die improves accuracy and prolongs case life because the case’s shoulder and body is sized down just enough to fit in a minimum-sized SAAMI or CIP rifle chamber, and bushing limits working of the neck."

Some other examples of CIP cartridges with generic description -
Forster's 6mm Dasher.

A pretty good example of a potential description issue is with Forster's 6mm BR, which is a CIP cartridge as well and still has the same generic description. However, if you knew nothing about the cartridge, which standardized CIP 6mm BR are they referring to? 6mm BR Remington or 6mm BR Norma, or 6mm BR Faré?

In the US, the newly produced dies would be both 6mmBR Rem/Norma compatible (despite some brands having a label that still says 6mm BR Remington, the die is also compatible with 6mm BR Norma) because that's what the US consumer market evolved into based on demand.

In Italy, you would have to be more careful and ask the manufacturer questions because of the 6mm BR Faré (a cartridge that is not shot here in the US, as far as I know) that some of your PRS competitors are shooting.

https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/bushing-full-length-sizing-die/
Part of my response in post #14 quoted below

Evintos said:
A resized brass case around the .200 line is probably going to be around 0.4714 inch (Manson) depending on your reamer. Some reamers call for 0.4717 (JGS) at the .200 line, so it varies.

The variation is why the cartridge spec matters less than the chamber spec when reloading used brass.

Having trouble using the site?

Over standard at .200" line, can make remedy?

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