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223 Rem and other 224 Cal Variations

I

IndianCent

Private
Minuteman
Supporter
Feb 10, 2023
70
22
Idaho
#1
Hi All,
I started to load and shoot .223 Remington groups for accuracy. My build is a Zermatt TL3 action with a 26" Shilen select match barrel mounted on an MDT ACC Premier Chassis. My barrel twist is 1:9, I want to order another barrel with a 1:8 twist to use with heavier bullets.
Looking through the choices, I see all these other options in .224 Caliber:
  • 224 Valkyrie
  • 22 ARC
  • 223 Rem
  • 223 Rem Match
  • 223 Wylde
  • 223 A.I.
  • 22-250
  • 22-250 A.I.
  • 22 Creedmoor
  • 220 Swift
  • I want to shoot groups for accuracy from 100 to 600 yards. What is my best chambering for .224 bullets, should I simply stay with 223 Remington or also consider other chamberings? I would love to find a comparison article that analyses the options available today.
  • Please give me any input I should consider before moving forward. Thanks
 
#2
223 wylde is a 223 rem just not a saami spec chamber, same for the 223 match. They just give you more freebore. I would stick with the basic 223 round but think about the chamber a bit. Is there a reason you are asking? Sounds like you are new, load a few, shoot a few, rinse and repeat, often. If you are not getting the results you want, bring expectations and results and we can help.
 
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#4
oldrifleman said:
223 wylde is a 223 rem just not a saami spec chamber, same for the 223 match. They just give you more freebore. I would stick with the basic 223 round but think about the chamber a bit. Is there a reason you are asking? Sounds like you are new, load a few, shoot a few, rinse and repeat, often. If you are not getting the results you want, bring expectations and results and we can help.
Click to expand...
These are the 5 shot groups from my last visit. I started at 100 yards and the starting powder charge. I want to achieve more consistancy (i.e. tighter groups without flyers). My current twist rate handles bullets up to 70 grain, a 1:8 barrel will go up to 80 grain which should be better for longer distances. I want to consider all options before adding more hardware. So please keep the suggestions coming.
 

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#7
I’ve got not a 223ai and a 22ARC

I’ve found the ARC case feeds much better and has been really easy to load for.

Both cartridges hammer, it just depends on what you’re wanting to do. If wanting heavier bullets for longer distances, the ARC will really help, but if just shooting groups, I’d stick with regular 223 with a 7 twist and longer freebore as noted above since you’re already set up for it since the arc would require different mags and bolt face.

If you don’t care about SAMMI, I know some guys who love the 22BR, but that’s a whole different conversation
 
#8
TheBigCountry said:
Get a 1:7 twist 223 Wylde and 75 ELd-M
Click to expand...
While this is a great setup to run, I wouldn't rebarrel for it just yet. I'd try the 75s out of the 9 twist.

My 9 twist 223 shoots them fine, I've even taken 77s out to 900 yards. Maybe he can ream out to a wylde and keep as is and find a bullet that shoots good in the 9 twist.
 
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#9
7T 223. Proof is the easy button. $550 for a cut rifled SS match grade finished barrel sitting on a dealer shelf.

frontrangeprecisionllc.com

PROOF Research Stainless Steel ZERMATT TL3 PRE-FIT Barrels

If you love the Zermatt Arms TL3 and SR3 actions, you’re going to love the Proof Research Prefit barrels for them. With many caliber offerings, you can get a pre-chambered, pre-fit, shouldered barrel installed in no time. Torque the barrel onto the action with a couple specialty tools, double...
frontrangeprecisionllc.com frontrangeprecisionllc.com

If you’re feeling adventurous 6 Dasher is a sweet option.
 
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#10
stello1001 said:
While this is a great setup to run, I wouldn't rebarrel for it just yet. I'd try the 75s out of the 9 twist.

My 9 twist 223 shoots them fine, I've even taken 77s out to 900 yards. Maybe he can ream out to a wylde and keep as is and find a bullet that shoots good in the 9 twist.
Click to expand...
It seems like the Wylde is a popular choice. What does the Wylde improve over the standard 223?
 
#12
After reading more about the 223 Wylde, it appears that this is a good choice for shooting longer distance with heavier bullets. I appreciate that input. I use a Hornady Custom Grade die set. Should I look for a different seating die for the VLD bullets?
 
#13
IndianCent said:
After reading more about the 223 Wylde, it appears that this is a good choice for shooting longer distance with heavier bullets. I appreciate that input. I use a Hornady Custom Grade die set. Should I look for a different seating die for the VLD bullets?
Click to expand...
I am actually building a 223 right now and my barrel is chambered with a longer freebore than Wylde. Mine is more like the match chamber with a .080 freebore. Looking at 80-85 grain begers.
 
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#14
IndianCent said:
After reading more about the 223 Wylde, it appears that this is a good choice for shooting longer distance with heavier bullets. I appreciate that input. I use a Hornady Custom Grade die set. Should I look for a different seating die for the VLD bullets?
Click to expand...
I use RCBS matchmaster/Redding

If the die leaves a ring in the bullet due to the VLD, you can get them to swap out the stem so it won’t leave the mark

Or YouTube it and you can sand down the stem

 
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#18
I think I have that exact barrel from James at NSS. With 55gr and lighter pills it really shoots small groups. As you consider your next choice keep in mind every time you put a new caliber on the bench it cost you $300-500 to just get started with new brass and dies. The 223 is a great round, if I were you I would opt for the 223 wylde in a 7-7.5 Twist for the heaves, you already have all of the components minus the bullets. By the way my barrel did not shoot the 69gr very well either.
 
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#20
Gray shooter said:
I think I have that exact barrel from James at NSS. With 55gr and lighter pills it really shoots small groups. As you consider your next choice keep in mind every time you put a new caliber on the bench it cost you $300-500 to just get started with new brass and dies. The 223 is a great round, if I were you I would opt for the 223 wylde in a 7-7.5 Twist for the heaves, you already have all of the components minus the bullets. By the way my barrel did not shoot the 69gr very well either.
Click to expand...
I agree, I decided on the 223 Wylde with a 7 twist. I have a Shilen barrel now, just wonder if the Criterion barrels are better or the same or just luck?
 
#21
IndianCent said:
I can get the required bolt heads in case I decide on a change. I am using the prefit barrel nut system offered by NSS.
Click to expand...

The .223 Wylde is a good call. You'll be able to load out to 2.4xx" with most heavier target bullets before you hit the lands. Gives you a lot of room to mess with seating depth. It is .062 freebore IIRC (and I'm not looking it up right now). Once you go more than that, you're really more optimized into the 80+ grain projectiles.

Ditch the barrel nut. There are a lot of quality gunsmiths that offer TL3 shouldered prefits. With everything holding much tighter machining tolerances, you don't have to set the headspace yourself anymore.

Hornady offers several seating stems for their dies, it is an easy and relatively cheap swap.

I'd highly recommend Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, and a few others over your Criterion.
 
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#22
Here's a very informative thread on .223 barrel/chamber choice, and reloading preferences. Worth the read.
www.snipershide.com

223 80g ELDM 28"

I just ordered a Bartlein 29" 8 twist heavy varmint for a LR 223 build. Going to shoot the 75/80g ELDMs as a trainer to my 6 creed and 7-300 Win mag. Building off a Rem 700, Greyboe Renegade with M5 mags so COAL will be 2.55" My goal is to try and get the 75s to 3000-3050 and the 80s to...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
#24
Criterion barrels are hit or miss as far their accuracy. Personally I would stick with a pre-fit shouldered barrel with cut rifling ( Bartlein, Krieger, ect). Select a minimum of an M24 profile.
 
#25
diggler1833 said:
The .223 Wylde is a good call. You'll be able to load out to 2.4xx" with most heavier target bullets before you hit the lands. Gives you a lot of room to mess with seating depth. It is .062 freebore IIRC (and I'm not looking it up right now). Once you go more than that, you're really more optimized into the 80+ grain projectiles.

Ditch the barrel nut. There are a lot of quality gunsmiths that offer TL3 shouldered prefits. With everything holding much tighter machining tolerances, you don't have to set the headspace yourself anymore.

Hornady offers several seating stems for their dies, it is an easy and relatively cheap swap.

I'd highly recommend Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, and a few others over your Criterion.
Click to expand...
I am very curios how your barrel cleans up. It takes me forever...and 3 days to clean the gun and I usually only shoot 25 rounds. I use approx. 50 patches and they still come out dark grey after I run the bore brush 3 times back and forth. It is somewhat ridiculous.
I use Slip 2000, the 725 gun cleaner and degreaser for the initial cleaning and then switch to Boretech C4.
I also ran the bore scope tonight and found these two rings, the first right before the leads and the second maybe an inch back into the chamber. I assume the second ring forms at the case mouth. Do you have any thoughts on these?
 

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  • Pic two just a little further into the chamber.jpg
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#26
I just wrapped up load development for a new .223 build today. I have a bartline 1:7 screwed onto an impact 737 chambered in .223 wylde. I couldn't be happier. I'm shooting the berger 80.5 fullbores at 2775 out of a 24" barrel and it has been awesome to shoot. I opted for the .223 over the .223AI because I didn't want to fire form brass but really not that big of a deal.
 
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#27
I'll add to the discussion: Don't always default to something is wrong with the system or that the largest improvement could be made there. A lot of the time those flyers are from the person, not the equipment!

Seems like you have a good shooting setup, consider spending time focusing on fundamentals and spend the money on more ammo components rather than a slightly different barrel.
 
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#28
Sounds like you’re newer. I would not spend money on a new barrel. I doubt you are going to see improvements at this stage in the game. Spend the money on more ammo and practice.

The 223 and its different variants is a fantastic cartridge. I have a few and they are my favorite guns to shoot. Also plenty competitive until your consistently in the tops 10 at the local levels I shoot at and even then it’s very possible to win.

Keep shooting what you have until you’re 110% confident it’s not you causing the flyers. Try different bullets if you need to but I wouldn’t swap barrels yet.

If you just must swap barrels buy a 1-7 not 1-8. I shoot 53vmax out of a 1-7, there is no downside assuming you stay with the 223. I’m partial to the proof prefits since they are usually on the shelf and shoot fantastic.

I have custom chambered barrels and proofs and the difference in accuracy is barrel dependent. I have proofs that shoot better than some customs and customs that shoot better than some proofs. Either will not hold you back from a podium finish.
 
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#29
IndianCent said:
I am very curios how your barrel cleans up. It takes me forever...and 3 days to clean the gun and I usually only shoot 25 rounds. I use approx. 50 patches and they still come out dark grey after I run the bore brush 3 times back and forth. It is somewhat ridiculous.
I use Slip 2000, the 725 gun cleaner and degreaser for the initial cleaning and then switch to Boretech C4.
I also ran the bore scope tonight and found these two rings, the first right before the leads and the second maybe an inch back into the chamber. I assume the second ring forms at the case mouth. Do you have any thoughts on these?
Click to expand...

Cleaning down to bare metal after every 25 rounds is probably overkill. Ask 100 different people though, and you'll get 50 different answers.

Personally, I go after the copper fouling between rounds 100 and 125, and I remove all of the carbon (clean completely) at 200 - 250 rounds. I haven't seen a degradation in accuracy across many barrels yet, so I'll stick with this process for now.

your first pic looks like the "carbon ring" that forms at the case mouth. I'd research that because there is already a ton of good info on it within this site.

The second photo could be one of several things, including a case that is charged to the lower end of the spectrum and isn't expanding enough in the chamber that gasses are able to flow back around the mouth and down the case...but that diagnosis requires brass inspection and I'm just spitballing based off of one photo.
 
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#30
Harman117 said:
I'll add to the discussion: Don't always default to something is wrong with the system or that the largest improvement could be made there. A lot of the time those flyers are from the person, not the equipment!

Seems like you have a good shooting setup, consider spending time focusing on fundamentals and spend the money on more ammo components rather than a slightly different barrel.
Click to expand...
I agree, I want to do that certainly. In this case I am looking to add another barrel to enable the use of heavier bullets at longer range than I am practicing right now.
 
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#31
Baron85 said:
Sounds like you’re newer. I would not spend money on a new barrel. I doubt you are going to see improvements at this stage in the game. Spend the money on more ammo and practice.

The 223 and its different variants is a fantastic cartridge. I have a few and they are my favorite guns to shoot. Also plenty competitive until your consistently in the tops 10 at the local levels I shoot at and even then it’s very possible to win.

Keep shooting what you have until you’re 110% confident it’s not you causing the flyers. Try different bullets if you need to but I wouldn’t swap barrels yet.

If you just must swap barrels buy a 1-7 not 1-8. I shoot 53vmax out of a 1-7, there is no downside assuming you stay with the 223. I’m partial to the proof prefits since they are usually on the shelf and shoot fantastic.

I have custom chambered barrels and proofs and the difference in accuracy is barrel dependent. I have proofs that shoot better than some customs and customs that shoot better than some proofs. Either will not hold you back from a podium finish.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input, my plan is to buy another barrrel with 1:7 twist and a Wylde chamber for heavier bullets. I bought my first build from Northland Shooters supply, they sell Shilen and Criterion barrels. Can you elaborate on "Proofs"? Is that different from the select match grade barrels that NSS offers? Thanks so much.
 
#32
diggler1833 said:
Cleaning down to bare metal after every 25 rounds is probably overkill. Ask 100 different people though, and you'll get 50 different answers.

Personally, I go after the copper fouling between rounds 100 and 125, and I remove all of the carbon (clean completely) at 200 - 250 rounds. I haven't seen a degradation in accuracy across many barrels yet, so I'll stick with this process for now.

your first pic looks like the "carbon ring" that forms at the case mouth. I'd research that because there is already a ton of good info on it within this site.

The second photo could be one of several things, including a case that is charged to the lower end of the spectrum and isn't expanding enough in the chamber that gasses are able to flow back around the mouth and down the case...but that diagnosis requires brass inspection and I'm just spitballing based off of one photo.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I didn't expect anything significant when I put the bore scope in last night and was surprised to see the two rings. The accuracy fell off just a bit at the last range visit and that combined with how difficult it is to clean the rifle each time made we wonder what's going on.
 
#33
#37
I have had a few 223ai’s and really like them but I really don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze in general. I like them because
1) they look cool and that’s important :)
2) it helps me keep my brass for different rifles separated visually easier instead of looking at headstamp if they get mixed.

There is definitely some performance gain but it’s not life altering and I don’t think your hitting a target with the AI that you would have missed if you only had a straight 223. I don’t have side by side comps since my 223’s have been 26” barrels and 223ai’s have been 16, 20, and 22”

My 223ai’s have been slightly more accurate but that could simply be the bullets I’m using in each or the blank/chamber job lottery.

Fireforming 223ai is super easy and not wasted. Fire forming loads are sub 1/2” and required nothing special. Fill a mag with 223 and shoot as normal. I have fire formed shooting matches and mostly shooting prarie dogs
 
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#40
Mauser48 said:
I've looked at 223ai but my straight 223 shoots great. No fire-forming or potential feeding issues to deal with.
Click to expand...
Perfectly sensible decision. However I have recently jumped across to the 223AI and I’m in love with it. There are definitely benefits, especially if you’re constrained by mag length. The above point about them looking cool is also important 😉

If the 223Rem is working then stick with it 👍
 
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#41
delinquent pleb said:
Perfectly sensible decision. However I have recently jumped across to the 223AI and I’m in love with it. There are definitely benefits, especially if you’re constrained by mag length. The above point about them looking cool is also important 😉

If the 223Rem is working then stick with it 👍
Click to expand...
It definitely looks cool and it would be nice to trim less.
 
#42
Order a box of Nosler 77g Custom Comp bullets. my 1-9 & 1-7 love that bullet. Powder charge for both is a minor difference. I am an Origin Action, 20" 1-7 Rock Creek barrel by PVA on their match chamber. The 1-9 22" is in my AR and loaded at Magazine length.
 
#44
I received the 223 VLD barrel today and I am getting ready to order some bullets. I was just wondering if I can shoot TMK's, HPBT etc in the 223 VLD barrel or is it limited to the VLD's because of the chamber shape and freebore?
 
#47
Never know what is going to shoot well until you try but there is nothing that will cause issues. Just wanted to elaborate now that I have a moment.

I shot 53vmaxs in a chamber that was throated to allow 88’s at mag length.

The VLD chamber is likely just a longer freebore.
 
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