Why are all scope reticles black?

JM4590 · Oct 20, 2024

Does any scope manufacture make a white reticle? If not, why not? I get that many scopes have the ability to turn the reticle to green or red, but why not just a plain white crosshair reticle. Educate me. I shoot BPCR silhouette and my reticle blends into the silhouette and leaves me with no point of hold. I need a white reticle for ref on the black silhouettes.

oldrifleman · Oct 20, 2024

JM4590 said:
Does any scope manufacture make a white reticle? If not, why not? I get that many scopes have the ability to turn the reticle to green or red, but why not just a plain white crosshair reticle. Educate me. I shoot BPCR silhouette and my reticle blends into the silhouette and leaves me with no point of hold. I need a white reticle for ref on the black silhouettes.

We used to paint the animals white, wore off but first relay was happy. You need better contrast on your scope. It can help differentiate the target from the reticle.

Cr1775 · Oct 20, 2024

oldrifleman said:
We used to paint the animals white, wore off but first relay was happy. You need better contrast on your scope. It can help differentiate the target from the reticle.

Leupold MK 3 reticle is black and changes to brown depending on something that goes on when looking through it.

W54/XM-388 · Oct 20, 2024

JM4590 said:
Does any scope manufacture make a white reticle? If not, why not? I get that many scopes have the ability to turn the reticle to green or red, but why not just a plain white crosshair reticle. Educate me. I shoot BPCR silhouette and my reticle blends into the silhouette and leaves me with no point of hold. I need a white reticle for ref on the black silhouettes.

Except for armoured prairie dogs, what else in nature or the wide world that you would be shooting at outside of a specific shooting discipline are actually black?

For most things black stands out way better than white would.

I'm guessing there isn't much demand for white and it might not come out looking the way you think it would in a reticle, since white requires a lot of reflected or transmitted light to see clearly as white and the light is coming in from the opposite side of your view, so even if it was painted white, it might still look very dark to you.

If you can get a scope where the whole reticle illuminates, that might be the best solution for you

DannoXYZ · Oct 20, 2024

Black gives most contrast against lighted background. Stands out most.

Imagine brown & green recticle when shooting in woods. You’d never see it!

Conversely, shooting in complete darkness, black recticle would not stand out at all. So you’d want one that’s lighted white. But you won’t be able to see what you’re aiming at in complete darkness anyway. Only thing visible through scope would be recticle.

hlee · Oct 20, 2024

W54/XM-388 said:
Except for armoured prairie dogs, what else in nature or the wide world that you would be shooting at outside of a specific shooting discipline are actually black?

For most things black stands out way better than white would.

I'm guessing there isn't much demand for white and it might not come out looking the way you think it would in a reticle, since white requires a lot of reflected or transmitted light to see clearly as white and the light is coming in from the opposite side of your view, so even if it was painted white, it might still look very dark to you.

If you can get a scope where the whole reticle illuminates, that might be the best solution for you

Black bears, pigs, home invaders wearing a black dress shirt, etc…

oldrifleman · Oct 20, 2024

Lighted reticles can also help in washed out conditions as there is a greater difference.

308pirate · Oct 20, 2024

hlee said:
Black bears, pigs, home invaders wearing a black dress shirt, etc…

View attachment 8529125
View attachment 8529127

Get a scope that doesn't need illumination to work against that background

Burdy · Oct 20, 2024

JM4590 said:
Does any scope manufacture make a white reticle? If not, why not? I get that many scopes have the ability to turn the reticle to green or red, but why not just a plain white crosshair reticle. Educate me. I shoot BPCR silhouette and my reticle blends into the silhouette and leaves me with no point of hold. I need a white reticle for ref on the black silhouettes.

You should look at the Meopta Dichroic reticle. It's transparent and changes color depending upon environment. My good buddy @saltedbutter took one to Africa and got some pretty good pics on how it works in the real world. May or may not work for silhouette, but it seemed to be a great option for dangerous-ish game hunting.

hlee · Oct 20, 2024

308pirate said:
Get a scope that doesn't need illumination to work against that background

If only the reticle were white…

Just the photos I have on my phone to illustrate the point.

The first time I read about the use of an illuminated reticle in a hunting scenario was hunting black bears.

I have a 3-9x with a crosshair that washes out just as bad. I thought I had a pic, but do not.

My point is just that there are viable black targets outside of specific disciplines, and black on black (especially in shadows) is a bad combination.

Ronws · Oct 20, 2024

I am surprised that no one stated the obvious.

Black lines matter.

Thankyouverymcuh.

cas6969 · Oct 20, 2024

Are the black ones black? I mean, I know some of them are, from taking some apart. But as a "yute" I can remember one of the scopes we had, when you'd get the light behind your, the crosshairs looked gold(?) copper(?) colored. I don't remember what scope it was, but it's probably somewhere here on a rifle.

Rob01 · Oct 20, 2024

JM4590 said:
Does any scope manufacture make a white reticle? If not, why not? I get that many scopes have the ability to turn the reticle to green or red, but why not just a plain white crosshair reticle. Educate me. I shoot BPCR silhouette and my reticle blends into the silhouette and leaves me with no point of hold. I need a white reticle for ref on the black silhouettes.

Turn on the illumination.

hlee · Oct 20, 2024

cas6969 said:
Are the black ones black? I mean, I know some of them are, from taking some apart. But as a "yute" I can remember one of the scopes we had, when you'd get the light behind your, the crosshairs looked gold(?) copper(?) colored. I don't remember what scope it was, but it's probably somewhere here on a rifle.

Leupold variXii turns brown(ish) with light behind, but is very much black outside of that specific lighting condition.

Aftermath · Oct 20, 2024

I am ignorant of BPCR targets and shooting so be kind....
I am old enough that my eyes don't do a great job with open or peep type sights anymore. I started using a 6 o'clock hold with my 03A3, M1A and M1 Garand. I can easily see the entire target rest on top of the front post so I adjust the sights to shoot higher into the x ring. It works quite well and I believe I could have been scoring better using this method when my eyes were younger.
So...is it possible to use a similar method on your targets? Crosshairs on a definable portion of the target above or below the actual bull?

diverdon · Oct 20, 2024

I've got a Thompson Center handgun scope about 30 years old with a gold reticle.

There might be a Fibre that brings some ambient light to the reticle.

db2000 · Oct 20, 2024

JM4590 · Oct 21, 2024

Here is an image of the target animals. The pigs are 300 meters, turkeys @ 385 and rams are 500. There are also chickens at 200 meters that are shot offhand. When the mil dot goes over the animal it washes out for me. Would be much easier if the crosshairs and dot was white. My reason for the inquiry was to see if it could be done, then I could reach out to the scope manufacturer and see if they would make one. I have never seen such. Rules of the game prohibit using modern day scopes. Has to be “ period” scopes as in of the times of the weapons. Perhaps even if it could be done, the rules would not allow such.

oldrifleman · Oct 21, 2024

I wonder if the scope builders could alter one. For some reason I was thinking either Rim fire or conventional center fire silhouette shooting, not BPCR. I have never used a scope on my 1874. I just used the tang and globe front. Those it would be easy to change the color as the inserts could be painted. The BPCR scope is a more specialized item, I have to believe that someone can alter the reticle.

ma smith · Oct 21, 2024

JM4590 said:
Rules of the game prohibit using modern day scopes.

I read this as shadow-casting (ie,black) reticles are the 'by rule' requirement
whereas illuminated reticles are fundamentally 'modern'.

reelserious · Oct 21, 2024

Just get an illuminated reticle

oldrifleman · Oct 21, 2024

reelserious said:
Just get an illuminated reticle

He can’t, his game (BPCR) limits him to period correct late 1800s scope types.

308pirate · Oct 21, 2024

hlee said:
If only the reticle were white…

Just the photos I have on my phone to illustrate the point.

The first time I read about the use of an illuminated reticle in a hunting scenario was hunting black bears.

I have a 3-9x with a crosshair that washes out just as bad. I thought I had a pic, but do not.

My point is just that there are viable black targets outside of specific disciplines, and black on black (especially in shadows) is a bad combination.

I'm just telling you that there are BLACK reticle that don't have nowhere near that much trouble working against a black background.

Rob01 · Oct 21, 2024

oldrifleman said:
He can’t, his game (BPCR) limits home to period correct late 1800s scope types.

How many white reticles were around in the 1800s? lol

JM4590 · Oct 21, 2024

Rob01 said:
How many white reticles were around in the 1800s? lol

……and that very fact may be why there are none in the game of BPCR…….but I ask once again…..could it be done.

Not trying to be a shit bird here, I actually have no knowledge of if a white reticle could be made in a scope. If I were to call NF and ask for a white mil dot reticle, would the answer be “ if you got the cash, we got the reticle” or would they say it is physically impossible due to issue XYZ.

Rob01 · Oct 21, 2024

JM4590 said:
……and that very fact may be why there are none in the game of BPCR…….but I ask once again…..could it be done.

Not trying to be a shit bird here, I actually have no knowledge of if a white reticle could be made in a scope. If I were to call NF and ask for a white mil dot reticle, would the answer be “ if you got the cash, we got the reticle” or would they say it is physically impossible due to issue XYZ.

I am sure it could be done by someone as there are companies that work on scopes but if you can’t use it in your sport then why bother? NF doesn’t make a scope you can use so they wouldn’t work on your scope. You would have to find an aftermarket company who does work on other manufacturers scopes.

oldrifleman · Oct 21, 2024

Not sure, especially someone big would like have an issue as that part of the scope is etched and coated in batches and one offs would be extremely expensive for them to do. I looked at the mva site and they say each one is etched then filled with non-reflective chrome. This is the black. I would give them a call. Their batches must be small as the market is not that large. Maybe coat the chrome with hi vis white?

Baron23 · Oct 21, 2024

308pirate said:
I'm just telling you that there are BLACK reticle that don't have nowhere near that much trouble working against a black background.

I was about to comment that I shoot blacked rams at 500 meters at my cousin’s club without issue. But then saw the “period correct” requirement.

ma smith · Oct 21, 2024

This is a thread for @koshkin

AFAIK, reticles either cast shadows (black), or the illuminate (eg w/LED)...
they are don't obviously ever 'reflect' any colors like painted the crosshairs, etc

To get color, you illuminate in color (ie with red, green, etc colored LEDs)
Likewise, to get white...you would need to illuminate...white...

But IIRC there is no white LED, instead you need a **blue**
then you also need...a red, and a green LED...etc in sequence
(under the theory that RBG=white)

This is a couple hurdles north of a no-brainer.

But I'd wait for somebody that actually knows what they are talking about.

ma smith · Oct 21, 2024

Possibly relevant...

reelserious · Oct 21, 2024

oldrifleman said:
He can’t, his game (BPCR) limits him to period correct late 1800s scope types.

Ok got it

Cutout · Oct 22, 2024

You can't have a reticle be white. The light has to come from somewhere to make white look white. Even if you filled in the etching with white paint, the reticle would still appear black when you look through the scope because it's dark inside of the scope. This is why old-school wire reticles looked black even though they were actually silver.

oldrifleman · Oct 22, 2024

Cutout said:
You can't have a reticle be white. The light has to come from somewhere to make white look white. Even if you filled in the etching with white paint, the reticle would still appear black when you look through the scope because it's dark inside of the scope. This is why old-school wire reticles looked black even though they were actually silver.

You are right, had it thought of that, white only shows because it reflects light. Brain is getting old

koshkin · Oct 22, 2024

ma smith said:
This is a thread for @koshkin

AFAIK, reticles either cast shadows (black), or the illuminate (eg w/LED)...
they are don't obviously ever 'reflect' any colors like painted the crosshairs, etc

To get color, you illuminate in color (ie with red, green, etc colored LEDs)
Likewise, to get white...you would need to illuminate...white...

But IIRC there is no white LED, instead you need a **blue**
then you also need...a red, and a green LED...etc in sequence
(under the theory that RBG=white)

This is a couple hurdles north of a no-brainer.

But I'd wait for somebody that actually knows what they are talking about.

This is a really good question and it never occurred to me that anyone would be asking it. It is one of those blindingly obvious things that, looking at this thread, is apparently not obvious. Now that I think about it, unless you have had a chance to think about how we see things, it probably is not obvious.

I was thinking of doing a livestream this week, either tomorrow or Thursday depending on how well my voice is holding up (I am a little under the weather). This is a nice topic for it.

ILya

Earnhardt · Oct 23, 2024

@koshkin

Ok, I’m not going to start another thread, but I’ll add to this thread…

And yes, and I am very well aware of the fact that you guys are going to hammer me on this…

Since many of us are looking/wanting a low power (let’s say 2.5-15x) FFP scope, with a reticle that is easily seen at low power, but still usable at high power…why not this?…

Why doesn’t a scope manufacturer make an Illuminated reticle option for day time use that will show up better than red?…

How about a daytime use Illuminated reticle that “enlarges” the center portion of a reticle with a dark purple or black type light

Yes, I said it…an Illuminated reticle that is a black/purple for daylight use, that “increases” the visible center portion of the low power range of the reticle, that is so hard to see in broad daylight.

And yes the scope could have (2) reticle colors, “black/dark purple” for daylight, and the standard red or green for night.

Let the beating begin…

koshkin · Oct 23, 2024

Black light? That would be a near trick. Generally, you can have a larger reticle feature become visible via a beam splitter or a phase grating

hlee · Oct 23, 2024

Earnhardt said:
@koshkin

Ok, I’m not going to start another thread, but I’ll add to this thread…

And yes, and I am very well aware of the fact that you guys are going to hammer me on this…

Since many of us are looking/wanting a low power (let’s say 2.5-15x) FFP scope, with a reticle that is easily seen at low power, but still usable at high power…why not this?…

Why doesn’t a scope manufacturer make an Illuminated reticle option for day time use that will show up better than red?…

How about a daytime use Illuminated reticle that “enlarges” the center portion of a reticle with a dark purple or black type light

Yes, I said it…an Illuminated reticle that is a black/purple for daylight use, that “increases” the visible center portion of the low power range of the reticle, that is so hard to see in broad daylight.

And yes the scope could have (2) reticle colors, “black/dark purple” for daylight, and the standard red or green for night.

Let the beating begin…

I think dual focal plane optics are what you are after. A cross hair visible at low power in the second focal plane, and a graduated reticle in the first focal plane. Of course, you now have 2 reticles that need to be co-aligned within the optic.

The Primary Arms Nova dot is generally regarded as “nuclear bright,” but it is a second focal plane optic. Could this be married to a Dual focal plane design with the dot in the second plane and a ranging reticle in the first? Idk, but looking at March, it would be insanely expensive…

Modoc · Oct 23, 2024

Looking at the OP’s use, one has had to center the animal/target in the lense while trying to keep equal amounts of cross hair showing to either side. My home club has the silhouettes painted Safety Orange which helps. We also host the California State Lever-action matches in rotation with Pala.

Earnhardt · Oct 23, 2024

koshkin said:
Black light? That would be a near trick. Generally, you can have a larger reticle feature become visible via a beam splitter or a phase grating

Yeah, I didn’t know if a coating could be applied to the reticle, or a light added that could cause the reticle center to turn a “bolder” black or dark purple…
Thanks!

koshkin · Oct 24, 2024

LeftyJason · Oct 24, 2024

koshkin said:

In the middle of watching it now.

I think the question about blacklight/ purple was talking about 365nm range blacklights. They generally look purpleish.

Internet pic.

ma smith · Oct 24, 2024

Blacklight is UV-A. Non-visible spectrum.

Therefore, we do not recommend looking directly into a UV LED black light when it is turned on, as even though the black light may not look bright, what you are seeing is just a small fraction of the actual UV light that is being emitted.

I understand the thought process, but its the opposite of a good idea from the sounds of it.

Keep in mind the main way you interact with a reticle is you stare directly at it ...

JMGlasgow · Oct 24, 2024

Reticles that aren't glass etched were actually nickel foil that was laser cut. They appear black because it's shadowed by the incoming light.

Shine a flashlight into the eyepiece and look inside. You will see it's actually silver.

Earnhardt · Oct 24, 2024

Not blacklight fellas…a way to make the black reticle more “bold” if you will…

stanley_white · Oct 24, 2024

Earnhardt said:
Not blacklight fellas…a way to make the black reticle more “bold” if you will…

Meopta Dichroic is probably worth checking out.

-Stan

LeftyJason · Oct 24, 2024

ma smith said:
Blacklight is UV-A. Non-visible spectrum.

I understand the thought process, but its the opposite of a good idea from the sounds of it.

Keep in mind the main way you interact with a reticle is you stare directly at it ...

I was just trying to help articulate what I thought the thought process could be. I knew there was a specific reason why but I couldn't think of it directly. I know I knew it was bad for that reason once you mentioned it. Not everyone knows that its bad.

hlee · Oct 24, 2024

Earnhardt said:
Not blacklight fellas…a way to make the black reticle more “bold” if you will…

There IS a way to make a reticle more bold.

Illumination- from Latin “Illuminare,” to make light, to light up…”

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Why are all scope reticles black?

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