223 Rem and other 224 Cal Variations

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

Hi All,
I started to load and shoot .223 Remington groups for accuracy. My build is a Zermatt TL3 action with a 26" Shilen select match barrel mounted on an MDT ACC Premier Chassis. My barrel twist is 1:9, I want to order another barrel with a 1:8 twist to use with heavier bullets.
Looking through the choices, I see all these other options in .224 Caliber:

224 Valkyrie
22 ARC
223 Rem
223 Rem Match
223 Wylde
223 A.I.
22-250
22-250 A.I.
22 Creedmoor
220 Swift
I want to shoot groups for accuracy from 100 to 600 yards. What is my best chambering for .224 bullets, should I simply stay with 223 Remington or also consider other chamberings? I would love to find a comparison article that analyses the options available today.
Please give me any input I should consider before moving forward. Thanks

oldrifleman · Oct 20, 2024

223 wylde is a 223 rem just not a saami spec chamber, same for the 223 match. They just give you more freebore. I would stick with the basic 223 round but think about the chamber a bit. Is there a reason you are asking? Sounds like you are new, load a few, shoot a few, rinse and repeat, often. If you are not getting the results you want, bring expectations and results and we can help.

TheOE800 · Oct 20, 2024

You would need a larger faced bolt head and obviously brass for cartridges other than 223 Rem/Match/Wylde/AI.

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

oldrifleman said:
223 wylde is a 223 rem just not a saami spec chamber, same for the 223 match. They just give you more freebore. I would stick with the basic 223 round but think about the chamber a bit. Is there a reason you are asking? Sounds like you are new, load a few, shoot a few, rinse and repeat, often. If you are not getting the results you want, bring expectations and results and we can help.

These are the 5 shot groups from my last visit. I started at 100 yards and the starting powder charge. I want to achieve more consistancy (i.e. tighter groups without flyers). My current twist rate handles bullets up to 70 grain, a 1:8 barrel will go up to 80 grain which should be better for longer distances. I want to consider all options before adding more hardware. So please keep the suggestions coming.

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

TheOE800 said:
You would need a larger faced bolt head and obviously brass for cartridges other than 223 Rem/Match/Wylde/AI.

I can get the required bolt heads in case I decide on a change. I am using the prefit barrel nut system offered by NSS.

TheBigCountry · Oct 20, 2024

Get a 1:7 twist 223 Wylde and 75 ELd-M

DarinC · Oct 20, 2024

I’ve got not a 223ai and a 22ARC

I’ve found the ARC case feeds much better and has been really easy to load for.

Both cartridges hammer, it just depends on what you’re wanting to do. If wanting heavier bullets for longer distances, the ARC will really help, but if just shooting groups, I’d stick with regular 223 with a 7 twist and longer freebore as noted above since you’re already set up for it since the arc would require different mags and bolt face.

If you don’t care about SAMMI, I know some guys who love the 22BR, but that’s a whole different conversation

stello1001 · Oct 20, 2024

TheBigCountry said:
Get a 1:7 twist 223 Wylde and 75 ELd-M

While this is a great setup to run, I wouldn't rebarrel for it just yet. I'd try the 75s out of the 9 twist.

My 9 twist 223 shoots them fine, I've even taken 77s out to 900 yards. Maybe he can ream out to a wylde and keep as is and find a bullet that shoots good in the 9 twist.

redneckbmxer24 · Oct 20, 2024

7T 223. Proof is the easy button. $550 for a cut rifled SS match grade finished barrel sitting on a dealer shelf.

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If you’re feeling adventurous 6 Dasher is a sweet option.

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

stello1001 said:
While this is a great setup to run, I wouldn't rebarrel for it just yet. I'd try the 75s out of the 9 twist.

My 9 twist 223 shoots them fine, I've even taken 77s out to 900 yards. Maybe he can ream out to a wylde and keep as is and find a bullet that shoots good in the 9 twist.

It seems like the Wylde is a popular choice. What does the Wylde improve over the standard 223?

TheBigCountry · Oct 20, 2024

IndianCent said:
It seems like the Wylde is a popular choice. What does the Wylde improve over the standard 223?

Freebore

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

After reading more about the 223 Wylde, it appears that this is a good choice for shooting longer distance with heavier bullets. I appreciate that input. I use a Hornady Custom Grade die set. Should I look for a different seating die for the VLD bullets?

oldrifleman · Oct 20, 2024

IndianCent said:
After reading more about the 223 Wylde, it appears that this is a good choice for shooting longer distance with heavier bullets. I appreciate that input. I use a Hornady Custom Grade die set. Should I look for a different seating die for the VLD bullets?

I am actually building a 223 right now and my barrel is chambered with a longer freebore than Wylde. Mine is more like the match chamber with a .080 freebore. Looking at 80-85 grain begers.

TheBigCountry · Oct 20, 2024

IndianCent said:
After reading more about the 223 Wylde, it appears that this is a good choice for shooting longer distance with heavier bullets. I appreciate that input. I use a Hornady Custom Grade die set. Should I look for a different seating die for the VLD bullets?

I use RCBS matchmaster/Redding

If the die leaves a ring in the bullet due to the VLD, you can get them to swap out the stem so it won’t leave the mark

Or YouTube it and you can sand down the stem

NHPiper · Oct 20, 2024

I really love the 223AI for what it is worth. With Varget out of an 18" barrel, I get almost 2850fps using 80gr ELDM bullets. It's super accurate when fire forming as well.

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

TheBigCountry said:
I use RCBS matchmaster/Redding

If the die leaves a ring in the bullet due to the VLD, you can get them to swap out the stem so it won’t leave the mark

Or YouTube it and you can sand down the stem

So my Hornady seating die would not work?

TheBigCountry · Oct 20, 2024

IndianCent said:
So my Hornady seating die would not work?

Try it.

If you see a ring on the bullet after seating, you can order a new stem for that bullet or use the method shown in the video

Gray shooter · Oct 20, 2024

I think I have that exact barrel from James at NSS. With 55gr and lighter pills it really shoots small groups. As you consider your next choice keep in mind every time you put a new caliber on the bench it cost you $300-500 to just get started with new brass and dies. The 223 is a great round, if I were you I would opt for the 223 wylde in a 7-7.5 Twist for the heaves, you already have all of the components minus the bullets. By the way my barrel did not shoot the 69gr very well either.

NHPiper · Oct 20, 2024

I had a factory Remington 223, the 16" SPS model that had a 1:9 twist. It didn't like 69s but loved 77s. I sometimes think the twist rate is a crap shoot.

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

Gray shooter said:
I think I have that exact barrel from James at NSS. With 55gr and lighter pills it really shoots small groups. As you consider your next choice keep in mind every time you put a new caliber on the bench it cost you $300-500 to just get started with new brass and dies. The 223 is a great round, if I were you I would opt for the 223 wylde in a 7-7.5 Twist for the heaves, you already have all of the components minus the bullets. By the way my barrel did not shoot the 69gr very well either.

I agree, I decided on the 223 Wylde with a 7 twist. I have a Shilen barrel now, just wonder if the Criterion barrels are better or the same or just luck?

diggler1833 · Oct 20, 2024

IndianCent said:
I can get the required bolt heads in case I decide on a change. I am using the prefit barrel nut system offered by NSS.

The .223 Wylde is a good call. You'll be able to load out to 2.4xx" with most heavier target bullets before you hit the lands. Gives you a lot of room to mess with seating depth. It is .062 freebore IIRC (and I'm not looking it up right now). Once you go more than that, you're really more optimized into the 80+ grain projectiles.

Ditch the barrel nut. There are a lot of quality gunsmiths that offer TL3 shouldered prefits. With everything holding much tighter machining tolerances, you don't have to set the headspace yourself anymore.

Hornady offers several seating stems for their dies, it is an easy and relatively cheap swap.

I'd highly recommend Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, and a few others over your Criterion.

TicTacTex · Oct 20, 2024

Here's a very informative thread on .223 barrel/chamber choice, and reloading preferences. Worth the read.

223 80g ELDM 28"

I just ordered a Bartlein 29" 8 twist heavy varmint for a LR 223 build. Going to shoot the 75/80g ELDMs as a trainer to my 6 creed and 7-300 Win mag. Building off a Rem 700, Greyboe Renegade with M5 mags so COAL will be 2.55" My goal is to try and get the 75s to 3000-3050 and the 80s to...

www.snipershide.com

Gray shooter · Oct 20, 2024

IndianCent said:
I agree, I decided on the 223 Wylde with a 7 twist. I have a Shilen barrel now, just wonder if the Criterion barrels are better or the same or just luck?

Criterion are good as well. I have one chambered in a 6GT

oldrifleman · Oct 20, 2024

Criterion barrels are hit or miss as far their accuracy. Personally I would stick with a pre-fit shouldered barrel with cut rifling ( Bartlein, Krieger, ect). Select a minimum of an M24 profile.

IndianCent · Oct 20, 2024

diggler1833 said:
The .223 Wylde is a good call. You'll be able to load out to 2.4xx" with most heavier target bullets before you hit the lands. Gives you a lot of room to mess with seating depth. It is .062 freebore IIRC (and I'm not looking it up right now). Once you go more than that, you're really more optimized into the 80+ grain projectiles.

Ditch the barrel nut. There are a lot of quality gunsmiths that offer TL3 shouldered prefits. With everything holding much tighter machining tolerances, you don't have to set the headspace yourself anymore.

Hornady offers several seating stems for their dies, it is an easy and relatively cheap swap.

I'd highly recommend Bartlein, Krieger, Brux, and a few others over your Criterion.

I am very curios how your barrel cleans up. It takes me forever...and 3 days to clean the gun and I usually only shoot 25 rounds. I use approx. 50 patches and they still come out dark grey after I run the bore brush 3 times back and forth. It is somewhat ridiculous.
I use Slip 2000, the 725 gun cleaner and degreaser for the initial cleaning and then switch to Boretech C4.
I also ran the bore scope tonight and found these two rings, the first right before the leads and the second maybe an inch back into the chamber. I assume the second ring forms at the case mouth. Do you have any thoughts on these?

Wisconsinner · Oct 20, 2024

I just wrapped up load development for a new .223 build today. I have a bartline 1:7 screwed onto an impact 737 chambered in .223 wylde. I couldn't be happier. I'm shooting the berger 80.5 fullbores at 2775 out of a 24" barrel and it has been awesome to shoot. I opted for the .223 over the .223AI because I didn't want to fire form brass but really not that big of a deal.

Harman117 · Oct 21, 2024

I'll add to the discussion: Don't always default to something is wrong with the system or that the largest improvement could be made there. A lot of the time those flyers are from the person, not the equipment!

Seems like you have a good shooting setup, consider spending time focusing on fundamentals and spend the money on more ammo components rather than a slightly different barrel.

Baron85 · Oct 21, 2024

Sounds like you’re newer. I would not spend money on a new barrel. I doubt you are going to see improvements at this stage in the game. Spend the money on more ammo and practice.

The 223 and its different variants is a fantastic cartridge. I have a few and they are my favorite guns to shoot. Also plenty competitive until your consistently in the tops 10 at the local levels I shoot at and even then it’s very possible to win.

Keep shooting what you have until you’re 110% confident it’s not you causing the flyers. Try different bullets if you need to but I wouldn’t swap barrels yet.

If you just must swap barrels buy a 1-7 not 1-8. I shoot 53vmax out of a 1-7, there is no downside assuming you stay with the 223. I’m partial to the proof prefits since they are usually on the shelf and shoot fantastic.

I have custom chambered barrels and proofs and the difference in accuracy is barrel dependent. I have proofs that shoot better than some customs and customs that shoot better than some proofs. Either will not hold you back from a podium finish.

diggler1833 · Oct 21, 2024

IndianCent said:
I am very curios how your barrel cleans up. It takes me forever...and 3 days to clean the gun and I usually only shoot 25 rounds. I use approx. 50 patches and they still come out dark grey after I run the bore brush 3 times back and forth. It is somewhat ridiculous.
I use Slip 2000, the 725 gun cleaner and degreaser for the initial cleaning and then switch to Boretech C4.
I also ran the bore scope tonight and found these two rings, the first right before the leads and the second maybe an inch back into the chamber. I assume the second ring forms at the case mouth. Do you have any thoughts on these?

Cleaning down to bare metal after every 25 rounds is probably overkill. Ask 100 different people though, and you'll get 50 different answers.

Personally, I go after the copper fouling between rounds 100 and 125, and I remove all of the carbon (clean completely) at 200 - 250 rounds. I haven't seen a degradation in accuracy across many barrels yet, so I'll stick with this process for now.

your first pic looks like the "carbon ring" that forms at the case mouth. I'd research that because there is already a ton of good info on it within this site.

The second photo could be one of several things, including a case that is charged to the lower end of the spectrum and isn't expanding enough in the chamber that gasses are able to flow back around the mouth and down the case...but that diagnosis requires brass inspection and I'm just spitballing based off of one photo.

IndianCent · Oct 21, 2024

Harman117 said:
I'll add to the discussion: Don't always default to something is wrong with the system or that the largest improvement could be made there. A lot of the time those flyers are from the person, not the equipment!

Seems like you have a good shooting setup, consider spending time focusing on fundamentals and spend the money on more ammo components rather than a slightly different barrel.

I agree, I want to do that certainly. In this case I am looking to add another barrel to enable the use of heavier bullets at longer range than I am practicing right now.

IndianCent · Oct 21, 2024

Baron85 said:
Sounds like you’re newer. I would not spend money on a new barrel. I doubt you are going to see improvements at this stage in the game. Spend the money on more ammo and practice.

The 223 and its different variants is a fantastic cartridge. I have a few and they are my favorite guns to shoot. Also plenty competitive until your consistently in the tops 10 at the local levels I shoot at and even then it’s very possible to win.

Keep shooting what you have until you’re 110% confident it’s not you causing the flyers. Try different bullets if you need to but I wouldn’t swap barrels yet.

If you just must swap barrels buy a 1-7 not 1-8. I shoot 53vmax out of a 1-7, there is no downside assuming you stay with the 223. I’m partial to the proof prefits since they are usually on the shelf and shoot fantastic.

I have custom chambered barrels and proofs and the difference in accuracy is barrel dependent. I have proofs that shoot better than some customs and customs that shoot better than some proofs. Either will not hold you back from a podium finish.

Thanks for the input, my plan is to buy another barrrel with 1:7 twist and a Wylde chamber for heavier bullets. I bought my first build from Northland Shooters supply, they sell Shilen and Criterion barrels. Can you elaborate on "Proofs"? Is that different from the select match grade barrels that NSS offers? Thanks so much.

IndianCent · Oct 21, 2024

diggler1833 said:
Cleaning down to bare metal after every 25 rounds is probably overkill. Ask 100 different people though, and you'll get 50 different answers.

Personally, I go after the copper fouling between rounds 100 and 125, and I remove all of the carbon (clean completely) at 200 - 250 rounds. I haven't seen a degradation in accuracy across many barrels yet, so I'll stick with this process for now.

your first pic looks like the "carbon ring" that forms at the case mouth. I'd research that because there is already a ton of good info on it within this site.

The second photo could be one of several things, including a case that is charged to the lower end of the spectrum and isn't expanding enough in the chamber that gasses are able to flow back around the mouth and down the case...but that diagnosis requires brass inspection and I'm just spitballing based off of one photo.

Thanks, I didn't expect anything significant when I put the bore scope in last night and was surprised to see the two rings. The accuracy fell off just a bit at the last range visit and that combined with how difficult it is to clean the rifle each time made we wonder what's going on.

Baron85 · Oct 21, 2024

Just another brand of barrels. They are usually in stock at some online vendor. Some times you have to shop around but I have always been able to find what I want. I have multiple and they have always shot well.

They have limited calibers and only 1 contour but the cost and ability to have your new barrel within days is awesome.

This is my go to vendor https://evolvedballistics.com/barrels/proof-research-stainless-steel-zermatt-pre-fit-223-rem/

IndianCent · Oct 21, 2024

Thanks to all that responded. I decided to order a 26" Shilen stainless select match barrel. It is a full bull barrel with 11 deg target crown for benchrest only. I ordered the available 223 VLD in 1:7 twist. That should work fine for heavier bullets.

stello1001 · Oct 21, 2024

What bullet you planning on shooting?

Mauser48 · Oct 21, 2024

I've looked at 223ai but my straight 223 shoots great. No fire-forming or potential feeding issues to deal with.

Baron85 · Oct 21, 2024

I have had a few 223ai’s and really like them but I really don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze in general. I like them because
1) they look cool and that’s important

2) it helps me keep my brass for different rifles separated visually easier instead of looking at headstamp if they get mixed.

There is definitely some performance gain but it’s not life altering and I don’t think your hitting a target with the AI that you would have missed if you only had a straight 223. I don’t have side by side comps since my 223’s have been 26” barrels and 223ai’s have been 16, 20, and 22”

My 223ai’s have been slightly more accurate but that could simply be the bullets I’m using in each or the blank/chamber job lottery.

Fireforming 223ai is super easy and not wasted. Fire forming loads are sub 1/2” and required nothing special. Fill a mag with 223 and shoot as normal. I have fire formed shooting matches and mostly shooting prarie dogs

IndianCent · Oct 21, 2024

stello1001 said:
What bullet you planning on shooting?

I don't know yet, but thinking about 77 or 80 grain weight. Maybe 90 BT VLD?

stello1001 · Oct 21, 2024

IndianCent said:
I don't know yet, but thinking about 77 or 80 grain weight. Maybe 90 BT VLD?

The 77s would have probably worked in the 9 twist lol. Some have even had success with 80s in a 9t.

I think the 80.5 should be a great bullet and the and if you want to to heavier, you'll now have the right twist for it. Should be a really run rifle.

delinquent pleb · Oct 23, 2024

Mauser48 said:
I've looked at 223ai but my straight 223 shoots great. No fire-forming or potential feeding issues to deal with.

Perfectly sensible decision. However I have recently jumped across to the 223AI and I’m in love with it. There are definitely benefits, especially if you’re constrained by mag length. The above point about them looking cool is also important

If the 223Rem is working then stick with it

Mauser48 · Oct 23, 2024

delinquent pleb said:
Perfectly sensible decision. However I have recently jumped across to the 223AI and I’m in love with it. There are definitely benefits, especially if you’re constrained by mag length. The above point about them looking cool is also important

If the 223Rem is working then stick with it

It definitely looks cool and it would be nice to trim less.

Defender32 · Oct 24, 2024

Order a box of Nosler 77g Custom Comp bullets. my 1-9 & 1-7 love that bullet. Powder charge for both is a minor difference. I am an Origin Action, 20" 1-7 Rock Creek barrel by PVA on their match chamber. The 1-9 22" is in my AR and loaded at Magazine length.

delinquent pleb · Oct 24, 2024

Mauser48 said:
It definitely looks cool and it would be nice to trim less.

The efficiency of the carriage is incredible but the other upside is that I have had no feeding issues. I expected to have problems in that regard, but they have not eventuated.

IndianCent · Oct 24, 2024

I received the 223 VLD barrel today and I am getting ready to order some bullets. I was just wondering if I can shoot TMK's, HPBT etc in the 223 VLD barrel or is it limited to the VLD's because of the chamber shape and freebore?

Baron85 · Oct 24, 2024

You are good to shoot any bullets not just the vlds

IndianCent · Oct 24, 2024

Beautiful...Thanks

Baron85 · Oct 24, 2024

Never know what is going to shoot well until you try but there is nothing that will cause issues. Just wanted to elaborate now that I have a moment.

I shot 53vmaxs in a chamber that was throated to allow 88’s at mag length.

The VLD chamber is likely just a longer freebore.

oldrifleman · Oct 24, 2024

Baron85 said:
Never know what is going to shoot well until you try but there is nothing that will cause issues. Just wanted to elaborate now that I have a moment.

I shot 53vmaxs in a chamber that was throated to allow 88’s at mag length.

The VLD chamber is likely just a longer freebore.

Correct

IndianCent · Oct 24, 2024

Great, that makes this barrel choice even better. My main purpose for the barrel is 70 to 90 VLD bullets.

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