They did both take down and solid frame in the ‘97’s. I have one of each that I compete with. The solid frame were earlier production.
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Trench Gun Madness
- Thread starter buffalowinter
- Start date
Pardon me for posting a photo of a modern interpretation of a classic design. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. I'm holding off pending the recovery of an injured shoulder and it's frustrating me to no end.
I too seem to remember something about the dates being bracketed by letters...but can't seem to remember fully...and I just tried to renew my knowledge about it...and there's no letters denoted anywhere...
I just looked it up on two different databases...one said 1910, one said 1912; without the letter... But neither databases gave option for entering the letter... But I know I've dealt with the letter before, but can't remember the specifics.
Either way, I feel very fortunate to have it.
I had someone at a gun shop offer to sell me his personal 97 Black Diamond trap gun for the same purpose years ago. I told him he was better off finding a collector for it because it was worth more to a collector then a brand new Chinese riot gun copy. He ended up selling it to a guy a couple days later who was going to chop it down for cowboy action shooting. As far as I know a $800 gun(all original and in good shape but refinished) got turned into a $300 gun.
I "got into" shotguns about a year ago. Wife went to a sporting clays thing and the bug bit her, and then she bit me....in a good way.
After I played a few rounds I decided to start halfway looking for a Winchester 12. I just think it would fit in with my over all collection, the prices now are a bit ooh my.
I am one of the goofs at the club that will shoot both sporting clays and trap with an A5, I just can't make myself do it with anything modern, that is just not me, an 1100 is about as good as it is going to get.
100-ish rounds with even a 20 A5 is a bit....not sure the word, don't want to use rough.....but harsher then a modern shotgun I guess I will say.
This thread just brought it up to the top of the list again.
After I played a few rounds I decided to start halfway looking for a Winchester 12. I just think it would fit in with my over all collection, the prices now are a bit ooh my.
I am one of the goofs at the club that will shoot both sporting clays and trap with an A5, I just can't make myself do it with anything modern, that is just not me, an 1100 is about as good as it is going to get.
100-ish rounds with even a 20 A5 is a bit....not sure the word, don't want to use rough.....but harsher then a modern shotgun I guess I will say.
This thread just brought it up to the top of the list again.
The bottom fell out of the market for model 12's. They are selling for about 1/3 of what they were 20 years ago.
ive been trying to find a Model 12 thats been chopped down with a Cutts or similar comp. Non-original, still effective, less desirable to collectors. thats where the sweet spot in pricing is, IMHO
Here you go Simpsons has bunches https://simpsonltd.com/search-results-page?q=model 12&page=1&rb_stock_status=In Stock
SKU: C51166
$450.00
$450.00
SKU:C51166Caliber:12 GAAction
ump actionFirearmType:ShotgunLicenseType:FFL
Quick View
WINCHESTER MODEL 12 - C44329
$375.00
@buffalowinter, I woner if they are better than the 1897’s I compete with. A competitor seems to need a minimum of 3: one to compete with, one for backup because the primary WILL fail, and one being repaired. 
Those Model 12s look good, and at a reasonable price.
Those Model 12s look good, and at a reasonable price.
I don't know why exactly, but one of the most fun things to do is slam firing a shotgun with a big ass bayonet!
I think everyone needs one of these
DW
I think everyone needs one of these
DW
I don't know if it would be all that useful. I have not watched the new video yet. I have one foot in two camps on this, one in the waste of ammo camp and one in the well it is faster/one less thing (move index finger) to do camp.
A little like when bolt rifles first came on scene and the "brass" insisted on a magazine cutoff. Troops will waste ammo. Well no not really. I imagine when the garand came along the same argument came around again.
There is one battle that is marked in history as the "go to" for the first battle where a repeating rifle "made the difference". Battle of Plevna during the Turkish-Russian war.
From memory they used 1866 winchesters and had a two stage defense. Around the fort they had set out distance markers. At longer ranges they used the more powerful single shot rifles, then when the russians got close they switched to the winchesters and just mowed them down. It is looked at really turning the tide of the battle, and just gave the russians fits.
This will get you going if anyone is interested.
Siege of Plevna - Wikipedia
I would like to figure out a way to modify my M7 bayonet with a longer blade to put on the Mossberg 590 Retro trench gun. I feel a little inadequate with a short blade. Don't judge me.
Listened to this ”waste ammo” business since gunpowder was invented. Guess one of my former employers decided that maybe wasting ammo wasn’t so bad when they switched that veritable M-16 variant back from 3 round burst fire to full automatic.I don't know if it would be all that useful. I have not watched the new video yet. I have one foot in two camps on this, one in the waste of ammo camp and one in the well it is faster/one less thing (move index finger) to do camp.
A little like when bolt rifles first came on scene and the "brass" insisted on a magazine cutoff. Troops will waste ammo. Well no not really. I imagine when the garand came along the same argument came around again.
There is one battle that is marked in history as the "go to" for the first battle where a repeating rifle "made the difference". Battle of Plevna during the Turkish-Russian war.
From memory they used 1866 winchesters and had a two stage defense. Around the fort they had set out distance markers. At longer ranges they used the more powerful single shot rifles, then when the russians got close they switched to the winchesters and just mowed them down. It is looked at really turning the tide of the battle, and just gave the russians fits.
This will get you going if anyone is interested.
Siege of Plevna - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
But in the end, wondering how good ole George Armstrong Custer felt about how much ammunition his men were wasting with the long range single shot rifles his men were equipped with. At that moment when he and his little command were engaged in a close quarters, man to man fight with a vastly superior enemy, many equipped with rapid fire weapons, both bow and repeating rifle. But then to quote a certain film about a Vietnam era battle, “Custer was an idiot!”
My opinion, yours may vary.
So, to carry on this thought. Was ammo wasted in Vietnam? During World War II it was estimated to take 45,000 rounds per dead soldier, Vietnam, 50,000. I suppose we on LZ Chippewa contributed to this number. During the evening, our only recreation was target shooting. Unlimited ammo, nice rifles, plenty of targets (Large bouders, small boulders, rocks, etch) and of course a 1000 meter free fire zone. So, what was a fellow to do?
Of course, our many critics freely criticized free fire zones. Shoot whatever you want as often and whenever you like, as long as friendlies were not moving onto of off of the hill proper. No one lived in that area, never had, there was no agriculture to speak off, the rice farms were in the flatlands and coastal areas; we were in the mountains. Nice to know, if the bad guys were about, we were free to defend ourselves. But NO! That was racist, MYSOGENIST, xenophonbic, because we were being evil by killing poor, innocent little men in black pajamas, carrying aK-47’s and humping 122mm rockets used to shoot at the hospital at Chu Lai. (Were our Sharon Lane was killed while tending to her patients in the middle of a rocket attack).
So what it it takes a million rounds to kill a solider. The point is to kill the enemy before he kills us. Target practice made us better soldiers. Maybe if George, had a good supply of Winchesters, plenty of ammo, those Gatling Guns and did some real advanced scouting and used his head and took a good defensible position, he might not have won, but he might well have lived with his men to fight another day. (Talk about a run-on sentence)
First Picture, LZ Chippewa
Lt. Sharron Lane, Nurse at 312 Evac Hospital in Chu Lai
The only American women serving who was killed by hostile fire
Her ward, housed wounded Vietnamese. Among others dying in the attack was a Vietnamese child.
She was one of ours, lest we never forget.
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- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,682
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I thought they did that because the burst cam setup was too prone to malfunction if you didn’t use the full three round burst.
My information was the need to clear rooms in city battlefields such as at Fallujah. However, I could be wrong. Anyway, a three round burst isn’t worth a damn when trying to clear a room that could (and often did contain) un-friendlies. So, whether you be right or me, it worked out for the best in the end.
I would suspect, though I don’t know, that the three round burst was to try and eliminate the spray and pray shooting that occurred in Vietnam. Better training, through better unit cohesion, emphasizing fire discipline would have done a much better job. Never in my furthest imagination could I ever “imagine” how a three round burst could amount to any good. I would think three quick trigger pulls would be just as (in) effective. Men in battle need suppression of the enemy, not emphasizing saving the taxpayer money. (For the best explanation of how this does not work, in real world situations, Google McNamara and Custer.).
Don’t take this as a criticism of the training we received in Infantry AIT. Those DI’s did the best they could to get us ready in the few short weeks they had us. Those men also took special care, knowing where we were heading and how soon we would be there. Its been 53 long years and I have forgotten all of their names, but they were fine men, never humiliating or abusive, jsut doing their best. My criticism is the piece meal way were were deployed. Units that stick together, fight best together. Oner of our DI’s was a tunnel rat. He was a very special soldier.
Final thought and then I will shut up.
never knew of a “DE-McNarmaraized” M-16 that was reasonably cared for, to jam, as long as one put 18 rounds in a 20 rounder and 28 rounds in a 30 rounder. To this day, I load my single action revolvers with five rounds leaving the hammer to rest on an empty chamber. (regardless of whether it has a transfer bar) I also load my bolt action magazines at least one round short of capacity. Heck, when I go to a PRS match, I am so slow, I only once got all shots off in time. And that was a nine round stage in 120 seconds with no movement..
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A great deal has changed from the American Indian wars to Vietnam. That has to be the Duh statement of the decade, but you really need to think and look at it to see just how far things have moved, really in all areas.
A while ago I was on a pretty big binge reading on american and indian wars. One thing the books all agree on is the general condition of equipment and troops on the "frontier" was in general just horrid. The last book I read about a month ago was this one.
It is really around Red Cloud and is pretty darn good staying on him better then most books about specific people. It goes into the building of the forts in the "upper midwest". Aside from troopers getting "gold fervor" and just going to CA was the general shape of the equipment. One commander they talk about had shiny perfect new spencer rifles for the band, but the troops in the field had garbage. And garbage is the correct term. When the next guy came in he did an inventory of equipment he found like 4 serviceable rifles for the entire fort, but the band had never fired spencers. That changed quickly.
One of the other books talks about just how well the US troopers could shoot. At the start of the "Indian wars" after the civil war, it was full of civil war vets that did not want to be there. Then it moved to Southern troops that did not want to be there. Then to green troops. The vets of the civil war could shoot, but the new people not so much. Having 7 rounds per year to shoot was not uncommon for practice. Most of these people in the military are fresh off the boat, and never seen a gun before.
That all goes into the how things got there. Everything had to be brought in on a horse and wagon. Past the Mississippi there was nothing. This is IMHO the roots of the "don't waste ammo" way of thinking. And it rings true, four months from factory to fort was fast. Plus all the money went away after the civil war. This was a lesson learned at the turn of the century when the US fought Spain, sure some had a Krag but most springfield single shots. And the "buffalo troops" did a great deal of the heavy lifting.
That is where I was trying to go with that.
Don't shut up, I enjoy this.......
McNamara was an arrogant know it all, Custer was an arrogant lucky know it all. "Custer luck" is something you see quite often when you read about him. I try real hard not to judge people of the past by values of today, but even in his day he was a prick, and really thought his shit did not stink. His luck ran out. Near the end of their lives many indian told accounts of that battle, years made some of the accounts messy, but enough things line up to get a general idea on how it went down, and it is not like the painting. Typical "indian things" done to the dead are done, and that gets really messy.
Vietnam was a interesting time in history, and when you think about other things that happened around that time, and the general feeling here in pit, you can come away with.....well that is the only way it could have ended. Reserves never activated. Never understood the "go to Canada" thing, could you not just join the guard or reserves and stay out of vietnam?
McNamara and his thoughts that if you showed anyone a video tape of something they could learn to do it. This is another real good book, and I do suggest it.
Quite interesting, and well worth the read with half an eye looking at what is happening to the military today. Same thing. And the results will be the same again.
I have commented on some accounts from this book, and others here in the past, so I will cut this short here, but lets just say we are going to see the results of being trendy in a very bad way.
Germans in WW1: Shotguns are inhumane!
Also Germans in WW1: HERE COMES THE MUSTARD GAS!!
Rereading “An American Rifle; A Biogrpphy” by Alexander Rose, he discussed the Springfield and its ammunition. A big problem was the copper cased .45-70 rounds. The cases would stick in the chamber and many a soldier under Custer died while trying to extract a stuck case. Seems the copper cases would expand in the heat.
Shades of McNamara’s version of the M-16. Wrong powder, cheaper, non chrome line barrels, no cleaning equipment available and little training left the cases stuck in the rusted chambers of the brand new M-16’s. Many a trooper lost his life, when trying to dig a 5.56 round out of his M—16. Once we got shed of McNamara’s influence on the M-16, got chrome line chambers and barrels, a bit of cleaning equipment and some training on how to use and care for the rifle, it turned out to be a pretty darned good weapon. Mine Never jammed, mis-fired or gave even a hint of a problem in Vietnam and you betcha, I fired the heck out of that little rifle.
Considering that’s a cartoon, it’s a pretty good depiction of an Ithaca 37 Trench Gun. Either the artist is a gun buff or they used AI from a stock image.
well considering hes dressed like a WWI soldier holding a shotgun not invented until 1937, id say he's not really a history or a gun buff ..
Could also be a m12 trench gun, which did see limited use in wwi…
Just think...instead of a shack for in case the lights go out, you could have a 97 all decked out...
I found this meme a while back, and thought I would donate it to this thread. 
I’m looking at an Ithaca 37 for my dad . How hard is it to add a mag extension to one with how the barrel is made ?
Place to get an extension?
I don’t want him buying a gun that I can’t get it how he wants.
Place to get an extension?
I don’t want him buying a gun that I can’t get it how he wants.
you will need a smith for that. its not like adding one on the other types of shotguns. it needs a soldered hanger on the barrel to be removed.
Modern trench gun...my NFA registered MasterKey.
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I made a connector from a magazine end cap and added the extension. Any spring for any magazine extension will work.
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