22 250 savage- copper fouling massive?

Kocher

Kocher

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Apr 27, 2021
    332
    82
    Minnesota
    #1
    After firing approximately hundred plus rounds after a couple days to the range
    From 55 bks’s and 55 Vmax

    Big game and h380 powders
    H380 and 38.6 gra. 3669fps av.
    Big game 38.6-3670fps +averagw… chronograph didn’t pick it up yesterday

    absolute blue burp of nastiness came out of the end of the barrel ( bore cleaner )
    after seeing massive copper fowling especially towards the end of the last 7 inches of bore.
    When viewed with a barrel/bore cam

    Saw some fire cracking, which is to be seen, but nothing that’s massive, would not think to cause bullet deformation.

    I’ll have to measure, but I think it shoots half three-quarter moa.

    I’ll try slowing it down and see if that makes a difference it’s a 1/ 12 twist.

    The big game powder definitely smashes the primer a little bit, but the Hodgeson h380 seems to be a more comfortable pressure..

    I’ll slow them both down no need to run it that fast… 24 inch bull barrel

    Bad barrel or running them too fast??
    I’m guessing has about 300 rounds maybe 400 tops

    Perhaps these are just savage barrels and that’s what they do?

    The rifling has got the KILLDOZZER tracks down the entire barrel just like rock Creek barrels … so nothing to worry about there
    I didn’t see anything that was glaringly awful about the rifling… I will have to look again after it’s clean

    This is not the first time the barrel has done this. I just figured it was due to high round count and not getting the barrel sparkly clean.
    and that I was finally using the right bore cleaner.?

    But the barrel was sparkly clean prior to these hundred plus rounds.

    i’ve never seen this much coppering in any of the barrels I own.

    This purchase was quite a few years ago at Cabela’s it was the savage 110 with Accu trigger and the really cheap stock…

    The other one came with a 6.5 Creedmoor I shot about 100 through it… stuck a different tube on the action so I don’t remember exactly how it shot. I don’t remember it shooting teeny tiny groups.

    However, I never remember seeing any sort of coppering like this
     

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    #3
    Looks just like my Savage 308Hog. Is yours short chambered too? Mine is a tad short.

    My Rock Creek from PVA looks nothing like that, not even a smidge. It’s a beautiful barrel.
     
    #4
    this barrel always seems to to pressure out early with powders… but the speeds have always =surpassed published data with 1.5 grain UNDER MAX gives me same velocity.. so it is very possible that they has used an old reamer. Which would cause the chamber to be tight versus being short chambered.?


    I am very new to this game, and many more knowledgeable than I am on this subject
    than I am .. Interesting with the rock Creek barrel you have, would like to see pics from a bore cam.

    the barrels from Savage have the same marks as to the rock Creek barrels so they must use the same manufacturing process….

    I will call Savage and see what they’ll do . The amount of coppering that I’ve seen in the barrel is quite stunning…. The only reason why I don’t just dump it or other is because it’s the only barrel I have chambered in 22 .250.



    I’ll post some some from this savage barrel.
     
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    #5
    Kocher said:
    this barrel always seems to to pressure out early with powders… but the speeds have always =surpassed published data with 1.5 grain UNDER MAX gives me same velocity.. so it is very possible that they has used an old reamer. Which would cause the chamber to be tight versus being short chambered.?


    I am very new to this game, and many more knowledgeable than I am on this subject
    than I am .. Interesting with the rock Creek barrel you have, would like to see pics from a bore cam.

    the barrels from Savage have the same marks as to the rock Creek barrels so they must use the same manufacturing process….

    I will call Savage and see what they’ll do . The amount of coppering that I’ve seen in the barrel is quite stunning…. The only reason why I don’t just dump it or other is because it’s the only barrel I have chambered in 22 .250.



    I’ll post some some from this savage barrel.

    The difference I’ve seen in this barrel versus a rock Creek was a rock creek look really good. The lands are nice and crisp no chatter or odd marks …much better barrel than the savage barrels as far as visually no chatter or odd marks down the bore.

    some say they got a barrel that looks like absolute hell and shoots really well, but I don’t think if a barrel looks like hell is ever going to shoot tiny little groups
    Click to expand...
    It’s not real hard to find any number of folks that will tell you that one thing you never do is look at a Savage barrel with a bore scope and just pay attention to what happens down range. They are famous (infamous?) for having barrels that look like corrugated drain pipes inside but that shoot lights out. One of the true incongruities in rifle shooting!
     
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    #8
    Savage bores can be pretty rough looking, foul more than a finish lapped custom barrel and still be pretty accurate. On the other hand I would expect most 22-250s to foul with 100 rounds and no cleaning.

    It will likely take a few hundred rounds to smooth out the bore or you can load up some 80 grain bullets treated with Tubbs Final Finish or similar treated bullets to fire polish the bore a bit. Don't expect to hit anything with those loads though, won't come close to stabilizing.
     
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    #9
    prior to the last two years. I really didn’t understand precision loading for rifles, as I primarily did handgun and pistol shooting… I never had Hi-powdered rifles growing up…

    I really hadn’t shot this gun in the last year and a half to two years. I had used copper cleaning agents, but probably didn’t use them correctly, and never thought of barrel could look like this!

    I had assumed that it was due to poor cleaning and that all the previous bullets that have been down the barrel never really got cleaned and I never really did a proper de-coppering of the barrel. Come to think of it. I think it was during that time where I’d watch some videos and heard people say they never clean their guns because the copper is good for the barrel and helps fill in the voids or defects in the barrel etc., etc. blah blah blah. so I don’t deep clean my rifles with de-copper agents, only de-carbon solvents.

    After bore scope in it? Complete scrub down.
    I Cleaned it down to bare metal!.. It was so clean, it looked like silver plates coming out of chomo P-ditty’s private safe in Manhattan! Aside from some carbon buildup…

    I may have even JB bore pasted it.. can’t remember for sure..

    100rounds latter… these were not as hot as the last 25-30rounds I shot … I may have just pushed a patch through with some carbon remover, but I would never expected to build up like that…

    150rds after the deep clean =
    And when I took the borescope out again, and it looked almost as bad as the first time… I looked down this barrel with the scope I should’ve taken pictures. It was something else.

    It looked as bad as my MP5 barrel that had just been taken off the sub gun … there were so many rounds slung down without cleaning , I could barely see the lands, when doing a quick visual inspection, eyeing it through the barrel (except it was black carbon, not copper)
    … it all cleaned up, but I had high resistance when pushing that first patch through!
    looks like a barrel off brand new one now..

    Back to the savage barrel and comparing it, there’s no way this much copper is being deposited without ill effects?

    The barrel was now scrubbed clean. I JB bore pasted it and then Hops black gun carbon remover, and that seem to take everything out almost no carbon ring either just faintly..

    Anyone that dealt with carbon ring that stuff is like a black ring of diamonds! Ballisticians use diamond rouge to get the carbon ring out of their thousand dollar plus spec pressure barrels.. because nothing else touched it, and because the barrels she used all the time they cannot let it soak in anti-carbon mix for 3-days.. last ditch attempt to save it from being ruined.

    I will take the gun out again, but I will drop the powder 1-grain…
    H380-37.5 ish… and report back what I see down the tube.


    After all this, I guess I’ve talked myself into this barrel just won’t do, but I am going to shoot it some more even if I get a hold of Savage and I will post the pictures and I have got to think it’s probably one of the worst coppering of a barrel you will ever see!

    I could go and just shoot the hell out of it, with continuous fire and sensible reloads, and burn it down!

    but I am nervous that too much copper blow the damn gun up?
     
    #12
    Here’s a Wilson 308 blank that was barreled by PVA. Same treatment, only cleaned with C4. This is after I ran about 50 rounds of different Mil-Surplus through it. It seemed to like Hirtenberger ‘76 the best.

    IMG_4697.jpeg

    Ballistic-X-Export-2024-10-24 15:12:48.520770.jpg
     
    #16
    This was a rock Creek barrel .
    Or at least advertised as one… shot like crap no matter what I did and had an excessive headspace. (Ar15 6arc ). We will see what the replacement looks like, but I was told that all rock Creek barrels look like this… from a well known barrel spinner.

    But the picture you posted looks nothing like the one that I posted .. as far as barrel finish
     

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    #17
    Kocher said:
    This was a rock Creek barrel .
    Or at least advertised as one… shot like crap no matter what I did and had an excessive headspace. (Ar15 6arc ). We will see what the replacement looks like, but I was told that all rock Creek barrels look like this… from a well known barrel spinner.

    But the picture you posted looks nothing like the one that I posted .. as far as barrel finish
    Click to expand...

    Yeah that’s very different. Mine is a M24 profile 26” stainless from PVA that’s on my Origin. I don’t think Josh would ever sell a barrel looking like yours. I don’t have any experience with their AR barrels, but one would not think there would be a difference.

    At least it’s not as bad as my Savage. I bet Tubbs FF would smooth it up nicely.
     
    #18
    Savage barrels have always had chatter marks from their button process. Remington was famous for their sewer pipe rough finish though, with voids, in new barrels(10+yrs ago). Chatter marks will always grab more copper than a good lapped barrel, but if I read that right you've got 3-400rds down barrel. It's about as smooth as its gonna get from normal bullet wear. You could Tubbs fire lap it, but if speed and accuracy is fine, I wouldn't worry about it. I doubt savage will do to much for you, it's a barrel that's a couple years old and used. As another poster said, 100rds of 22-250 between cleanings will definitely build up some copper in a factory barrel. Put the bore scope away, focus on groups and cleaning a bit more frequent on that barrel and it'll be fine.
     
    #19
    Kocher said:
    Perhaps I’ll give Savage a call and see how legitimate they can be with their customer service
    Click to expand...
    Please give them a call, I'm sure the CS Dept needs a good laugh hearing that a couple year old rifle chambered in a known barrel burner cartridge that wasn't maintained properly has severe copper fouling.
    Shoot it till you can't see through it and then change barrels.
    Or be like Mike Tyson and once it gets dirty throw it away and buy another one.
    SJC
     
    #20
    KYAggie said:
    Yeah that’s very different. Mine is a M24 profile 26” stainless from PVA that’s on my Origin. I don’t think Josh would ever sell a barrel looking like yours. I don’t have any experience with their AR barrels, but one would not think there would be a difference.

    At least it’s not as bad as my Savage. I bet Tubbs FF would smooth it up nicely.
    Click to expand...

    Thankfully, the rock Creek barrel was sent back and it’s been there for fewweeks so I’ll see what happens, not because of the Killdozer chatter mark down the whole bore, but because it shot like shit.. after a long, learning process, it was the headspace , ultimately was off by quite a bit… not going to call out the barrel chamber company…shit happens..

    And yeah, I will give Savage a call. I don’t think it really matters how old the firearm is or the barrel most companies that are tree supporters will actually get it done.. don’t really wanna go purchased another $400 barrel right now
     
    #21
    shoots100 said:
    Please give them a call, I'm sure the CS Dept needs a good laugh hearing that a couple year old rifle chambered in a known barrel burner cartridge that wasn't maintained properly has severe copper fouling.
    Shoot it till you can't see through it and then change barrels.
    Or be like Mike Tyson and once it gets dirty throw it away and buy another one.
    SJC
    Click to expand...

    Oh shit, I will say I’m already laughing at your post …. Trying to quantify what you consider a poorly maintained firearm… I would hardly believe that you would think putting 100 rounds down a 22 250 ..
    Then…..running one wet patch letting it sit for few minutes running three patches of dry . Apparently most would, raise their hand and praise how amazing it is .. did not work on this barrel ..found out with the bore scope.…just how much copper was left…



    Thanks for the input
     
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