I have a psa with an 18” 1:7 ba barrel. I would like to make it shoot tighter with off the shelf ammo. If I got a 20” 1:8 would it be more forgiving with different types of ammo. It does ok with heavier stuff but is not consistently as accurate as some of my other rifles. It has a decent trigger and fits the lower tight. It’s pictured with my 20” 22-250 that shoots great
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5.56 accuracy
- Thread starter SteveC
- Start date
A good quality barrel with a head spaced bolt will make a world of difference
I don’t have lots of money since I am retired. It spoils me to shoot my 17 hmr Ruger precision and my 22-250. It would be nice if the 5.56/223 could be sub moa. The guy at LGS has tried to help it with better trigger, 18” BA rifle length barrel but it still somewhat sucks
If you want it too shoot tiny groups your going to have spend more than the BA cost. Maybe twice as much.
I don’t know how to pick a barrel, they all say they are great in their sales ads. And sub moa really isn’t tiny groups is it?
Get a different barrel if it is consistently less accurate than what you seek despite trying multiple types of ammo.
Some people get so wrapped up trying to get a turd to shoot, they spend as much money on ammo/components as the cost difference for a better barrel.
A decent barrel doesn't necessarily need to cost $500+... There are decent buys out there for much less than that. Examples would be Criterion, Craddock RTR, etc.
One of my best shooting barrels was a Nordic 18" rifle-gas 1/8 twist. It shot everything great from 40 to 75 grain. Unfortunately it was shot out after ~10k rounds, and they aren't produced anymore. Would have been a great budget option for you.
Some people get so wrapped up trying to get a turd to shoot, they spend as much money on ammo/components as the cost difference for a better barrel.
A decent barrel doesn't necessarily need to cost $500+... There are decent buys out there for much less than that. Examples would be Criterion, Craddock RTR, etc.
One of my best shooting barrels was a Nordic 18" rifle-gas 1/8 twist. It shot everything great from 40 to 75 grain. Unfortunately it was shot out after ~10k rounds, and they aren't produced anymore. Would have been a great budget option for you.
You can get lucky with cheaper barrels, green mountain have been pretty consistent for me, I would consider White Oak as the gold standard for a 223 AR barrel that doesn't cost "a lot" of money. For example this barrel will be heavy but odds are it will shoot better:
www.whiteoakarmament.com
White Oak Pre-ban Service Rifle Barrels
5SRB-WOA This is the same AR15 service rifle barrel we use in our championship-winning White Oak Armament CMP Uppers. In .223/5.56 Wylde chamber, it is 20 inches in length with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist, 11 degree target crown and fitted extension. The muzzle is
www.whiteoakarmament.com
Agreed this one will do good, proven track record.You can get lucky with cheaper barrels, green mountain have been pretty consistent for me, I would consider White Oak as the gold standard for a 223 AR barrel that doesn't cost "a lot" of money. For example this barrel will be heavy but odds are it will shoot better:
White Oak Pre-ban Service Rifle Barrels
5SRB-WOA This is the same AR15 service rifle barrel we use in our championship-winning White Oak Armament CMP Uppers. In .223/5.56 Wylde chamber, it is 20 inches in length with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist, 11 degree target crown and fitted extension. The muzzle is
Adco has some of the 16" white oaks if you wanted to go that route, no matter the vendor I would request a headspaced bolt to go with it (you'd need a mid gas tube for this one vs what you have now):
I've got a couple of these green mountains both shot around 3/4 for 5 with handloads on the first day out using a lead sled and target scope they are a lighter profile as well:
At one time I had several rifles with ballistic advantage barrels and they shot pretty good but the last few I bought were 2", 3", or shotgun groups...
I've got a couple of these green mountains both shot around 3/4 for 5 with handloads on the first day out using a lead sled and target scope they are a lighter profile as well:
At one time I had several rifles with ballistic advantage barrels and they shot pretty good but the last few I bought were 2", 3", or shotgun groups...
Right now, Proof stainless are getting consistent results. White Oak and Craddock are also solid options for the barrel component.
That just leaves the other 87 things that could be keeping you from achieving optimum results in shooting a small-frame gasser.
Handloading and 1pc cantilevered mounts that move your scopes a little further forward for better cheekweld would help
When I'm really frustrated with a rifle I'll put it in a lead sled and use 1 box of factory ammo (55gr vmax, 69gr sierra) lots of times it suddenly shoots a whole lot better
When I'm really frustrated with a rifle I'll put it in a lead sled and use 1 box of factory ammo (55gr vmax, 69gr sierra) lots of times it suddenly shoots a whole lot better
Firm believer in the barrel being the heart of the system here but before condemning the BA barrel because it's a BA barrel, what ammunition are you shooting OP? I've read you've tried heavier stuff and light stuff but specifically what does that mean? 55 FMJ, 62 FMJ, 77 OTM, 69 SMK, what brand and bullet weight is giving you these 1.5"+ groups? My point is, if you're shooting mediocre ammunition to start with switching to a different barrel isn't going to magically make it shoot better.
What trigger did the gunshop drop in the lower?
Also, from my perspective the set up could use a little tuning like turning your bipod around the right way so that you can load the bipod a bit and actually take advantage of it. You could also try a cantilever mount to raise the optic a bit and push forward and adding a bag rider to the CTR stock can help it be more stable off a bag.
This one is less than $20:
subrevtech.com
What trigger did the gunshop drop in the lower?
Also, from my perspective the set up could use a little tuning like turning your bipod around the right way so that you can load the bipod a bit and actually take advantage of it. You could also try a cantilever mount to raise the optic a bit and push forward and adding a bag rider to the CTR stock can help it be more stable off a bag.
This one is less than $20:
Bag Rider V2 for Magpul CTR - Subrevtech
Improve shooting stability with the Bag Rider V2 for CTR by Subrevtech. Designed for precision shooting, this accessory provides enhanced support and control.
subrevtech.com
Firm believer in the barrel being the heart of the system here but before condemning the BA barrel because it's a BA barrel, what ammunition are you shooting OP? I've read you've tried heavier stuff and light stuff but specifically what does that mean? 55 FMJ, 62 FMJ, 77 OTM, 69 SMK, what brand and bullet weight is giving you these 1.5"+ groups? My point is, if you're shooting mediocre ammunition to start with switching to a different barrel isn't going to magically make it shoot better.
What trigger did the gunshop drop in the lower?
Also, from my perspective the set up could use a little tuning like turning your bipod around the right way so that you can load the bipod a bit and actually take advantage of it. You could also try a cantilever mount to raise the optic a bit and push forward and adding a bag rider to the CTR stock can help it be more stable off a bag.
This one is less than $20:
Bag Rider V2 for Magpul CTR - Subrevtech
Improve shooting stability with the Bag Rider V2 for CTR by Subrevtech. Designed for precision shooting, this accessory provides enhanced support and control.
I have pretty good luck shooting off the vise pictured and the other pic of ammo order the Hornady black was the best.
I have tried several other over time. Winchester 64 grain extreme point, and federal 55 fmj, Winchester green tips. All the lighter stuff is shot gun group
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Same thing I was going to post, 1 in 7 post ban would be my choice, pre ban if you want a threaded barrel. Buy the head spaced bolt with it. It's like another $20.You can get lucky with cheaper barrels, green mountain have been pretty consistent for me, I would consider White Oak as the gold standard for a 223 AR barrel that doesn't cost "a lot" of money. For example this barrel will be heavy but odds are it will shoot better:
White Oak Pre-ban Service Rifle Barrels
5SRB-WOA This is the same AR15 service rifle barrel we use in our championship-winning White Oak Armament CMP Uppers. In .223/5.56 Wylde chamber, it is 20 inches in length with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist, 11 degree target crown and fitted extension. The muzzle is
Yeah barrel from non- top tier makers regardless of price tend to be lotteries. Some you win some you don’t. You increase your odds by going with proven reputation sellers with proven customer service. You can still get a dud, but they will stand behind their product. You will still need to find ammo that the barrel likes, they can be finicky.
It's not surprising that the Winchester and Fed ammo shot larger groups, 64gr XP is a hunting round and the other two are ball ammo varieties with an acceptable group size in the 3-4 MOA range. I have experience with 68 gr BTHP Frontier, it's never shot well in three guns, damn near ball ammo levels of accuracy and from past experience the 75gr Hornady Black is pretty good but still in that 1-1.5 MOA arena. I don't have any experience with the PMC 77 OTM but at the end of the day it is PMC, who are mostly known for making plinking ammo so...there's that. Personally, I think you have an ammo problem and before swapping barrels out, I'd give some Fed Gold Medal Match a try or some Black Hills to see what they do.
Sub MOA in a AR platform, is considered danged good.
In the spirit of economy I would suggest you give your current barrel a good cleaning , and try some more ammo brands.
PSA AAC ammo is a bargain right now.
And ADI .223 69gr SMK has always been a consistent less expensive round.
As for the twist rate difference between a 1n7 and a 1n8... myself I don't think that matters very much in the real world of common AR barrels.
Certainly not within 100yds.
My WOA SPR barrel has been a very consistant shooter. It shoots good or better with several different kinds of factory ammo. Which is great since I gave up handloading this year (lack of available components and high prices).
The WOA barrel really seems to like PMC X-tac 77 grain, and the best group so far is about .8 MOA.
It also gave me a pretty amazing 20 shot group measuring just above 2 MOA, and if you scratch two "flyers" it measured 1.3 MOA, and this was with regular factory Fiocchi 55 grain FMJ.
I am very happy with it.
The WOA barrel really seems to like PMC X-tac 77 grain, and the best group so far is about .8 MOA.
It also gave me a pretty amazing 20 shot group measuring just above 2 MOA, and if you scratch two "flyers" it measured 1.3 MOA, and this was with regular factory Fiocchi 55 grain FMJ.
I am very happy with it.
Well, I went to lgs and he sold me a cantilever scope mount and some 77 otm xtac. That’s 5 shots at 50 yards. The Hornady black shot a 1” group at 50. I don’t need a barrel after all. I will go back and buy more of that ammo since I only bought 1 box
Excellent, glad you found what it likes, good shooting, keep it up and lets see what it can do at 100! I expect good things
That 3 shot of Hornady black. That’s why I was so frustrated
I used the black to zero the new scope mount
- Nov 3, 2010
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If that’s 100 yards then it’s still a .91 moa group. That’s sub moa by a little bit for sure.
Not bad, also try some federal gold medal match either (or both) the 69 and 77 grain. They are sort of the "if this doesn't work you are in trouble" loads. But regardless you are moving in the right direction, I could live with those.
Try a flat based bullet. They usually shoot much better under 300 yards or so. A lot of the hornady v max bullets are flat base
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No, that’s just 50. It’s always windy here but I have a spot down in the woods that is blocked from wind, but only 50. Those 1.5-2 moa groups is what I was fighting until today with the xtac 77s. That’s why I was considering a different barrel. Back in the spring I had my thermal on it for awhile and missed 2 different coyotes at 100-125 yards So I put the thermal back on my 308 but might try it back on the ar15 since it’s lighter.
Man. Don't go too far down the rabbit hole on group sizes. For every 3 or 5 round sub MOA group you see on the internet, believe me, it's not gonna stay like that as the round count increases.
What's important is that you can hit your chosen target. If shooting small groups is your goal, you've barely scratched the surface.
What's important is that you can hit your chosen target. If shooting small groups is your goal, you've barely scratched the surface.
I do understand that and bench shooting isn’t my priority at all. I just sight it in at 50 and go from there. Last spring I tried running my thermal scope on the ar15 and was missing some shots on coyotes. So I moved it back to my 308. Yesterday I went down to the pond and layed down on the dam and shot 100 yards with some wind and it was shooting 1” to 1.25” groups about an inch high at 100. In my opinion if a gun isn’t close to 1 moa it’s really hard to use it for hunting and varmints. 2” groups at 50 won’t cut it. 200-300 yard shots are much more common than up close for me on our 80 acres.
i noticed the aac 77gr otm shoots a tad better than imi razor in most of my barrels but i dont have high end barrels either. BA, LWRC, FN chromelined heavy.
i also noticed my nitrided barrels got better over time. maybe smoothed out the rough spots?
one 18” ba is right at 1moa at 100yds but i’m no dead eye dick either. holding steady is an art.
i also noticed my nitrided barrels got better over time. maybe smoothed out the rough spots?
one 18” ba is right at 1moa at 100yds but i’m no dead eye dick either. holding steady is an art.
Just curious, why zero at 50 with a scope? I’ve done it with a red dot, but since virtually all data is based off a 100 yard zero I’d say go with 100 when using a scope. So when you switched the thermal back to the 308 it does better? Sounds like maybe an optic mounting problem to me especially since you put a scope back in the ar15 and shot close to 1 moa.
Yeah, I'd rethink that 50 yard zero. That's gonna leave you holing under until about 200 yards or so.
How many types of ammunition have you found that consistently get you about 1.5 MOA? Or maybe even 2 MOA? Are you just plain getting big groups or are they vertically or horizontally strung?
When you shoot your groups, is it usually in the type of setting in the picture? Are you holding consistenly on target for every shot or are you accounting for environmental variables? Are you judging the performance of 5.56 based on your experience with .308?
I'm asking because you may have found the right ammunition and don't know it. You really can't compare results you get from an accurate .308 to the results you get with a 5.56. Although .308 and 5.56 share similar trajectories, good .308 ammo has a higher ballistic coefficient and isn't nearly as affected by the wind as 5.56.
If you are shooting your groups holding in the same place everytime, without accounting for environmental variables, it would be no wonder that you're getting the results that you are.
My goto rig for out to 300 yards is a 12.5" Criterion barrelled AR. My chosen load is usually a 55gr V-Max leaving the muzzle at about 2900 fps. With that combo at 100 yards shooting with a cross wind between 5 and 10 mph, my wind hold is between .2 and .4 mils, depending on how my gut is reading the wind. That's about 3/4 to 1.5" at 100. With decent 77gr, i only have to hold about half as much, but I'm holding nonetheless.
That's why I said what I did about not going down the rabbit hole chasing ammo that groups sub MOA while just holding on the target in an open environment. What really matters is whether you can hit the target. For every shot, you need to be accounting for environmental variables. Unless youre lucky and have a place to shoot where environmental variables aren't a concern.
Yes, i shoot groups. I do it at 50 yards with .22 cal to minimize the effects of environmental variables to get an idea of what the ammo is doing. If i can keep ten round groups within a 1" target, then I'll start doing some real shooting with it. What im looking for is ammo that is predictable.
Honestly, as accurately as youre saying you need to shoot over several hundred yards, i don't know that 5.56 is for you. With all calibers, to varying degrees, your zero could change just because it's 10 degrees cooler or hotter than it was on the day you zeroed or the humidity changed. A 5.56 round gets kicked around if you look at it too hard.
if you are shooting at paper, have you tried hanging a streamer or even a strip of toilet paper from the target? Just to get an idea of what's going on with the wind. In that picture you posted, it's a little hard to tell, but are those wind ripples I see on the water?
In any case, I shoot a lot of the AAC V-Max stuff. It shoots ok in terms of practical accuracy and it's pretty cheap. The velocities can be a bit inconsistent. I also shoot a bunch of the 55gr V-Max from Black Dot Ammo. It runs a little slow at 2750 out of my 12.5, but im really starting to think that they use some sort of voodoo when loading that stuff. It shoots really straight out to about 275 to 300 yards. At that point it starts dropping like a brick.
Thanks for the reply.
That photo of the pond was the most sheltered place I had to shoot 100 yds that day. And there was a 10 mph wind at my back. I shot xtac 77 and was grouping 1” about 1” high at 100 yds. I feel pretty good about that. Just for grins I tried 3 adi 55 and was 3” group at 100. The xtac is the most consistent that I have found. Hornady black 75 bthp are next best. Anything 55 gr groups like a shotgun.
I have very few calm days where I live but I have a sheltered 50 yd spot with lots of trees on both sides that block most of the mind especially on calm days.
I like the 50 yds zero and have done that for years. I can hold point blank out to 200 with trajectory about 1.5” high at 100 with second zero 190-200yds. Works for coyote or bigger sized targets.
I am not ready to take the thermal off the 308 ar yet and this 223/556 isn’t a long range predator/varmint rig for me in this configuration.
I have a sub moa 22-250 also, but it and the 308 are both heavy.
That’s why I wanted to play with the ar15 again.
Ya know, ive had really good luck with X-Tac ammunition. I shoot a LOT of their M855. It's cheap and it shoots pretty well. When I practice, I usually shoot standing or sitting from something that simulates an improvised rest. This past weekend, it was standing using a car jack stand with a schmedium game changer bag draped across it and at 100 yards I was able to keep 7 or 8 out of 10 within a 2.5" target. I was being lazy, so 200 and beyond was at 3 to 4 MOA steel, but it shoots well.
I usually use a ball head tripod to help hold still. Recently beavers came back and started cutting trees around our pond. I was able to headshot 2 of them swimming across the pond with my precision 17hmr with a weapon light. It was pitch black midnight and I used a thermal monocular to spot them at 50-60 yds and flipped on the light on and shot. Worked great.
For coyotes, when the wind is the right direction, I sit at the back of the wife’s goat pens in a chair with my tripod and watch an opening between some woods on the back part of the 80 acres. I scan with the thermal monocular and look through the rifle thermal scope if I see something. The tripod helps cancel the weight of the 308.
It kind of spoils me to shoot the 308 or the 17 because they are very accurate. I just found that the xtac 77 shoots good from the ar15. Before, I was struggling. I will know more after I use it a bit more.
Pic of 17 hmr
Man, im envious. It's nice when what you like to do actually serves a purpose. Although I do practice shooting at small targets, most pest control that I take part in is getting rid of hogs, maybe coyotes and wild cats.
I see that you have a .308 and a rimfire, but have you played around at all with 300BO? When I first put one together, I thought of it as a short range cartridge and did a 10". Now that Ive played around with it some, im finding it to be a pretty accurate round, showing typical .30 cal accuracy. Funny thing is that finding ammo that shoots MOA or better has been a lot easier than it is with 5.56. I'm considering tearing down one of my 5.56 uppers and throwing a 16" 300BO barrel on it to see what it will do.
As of now, I'm only running a 3.5x ACOG on my 10", but center punching a 2" target isn't too hard at 100. I'm gonna throw some big glass on it soon, just to see what It'll do.
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