Match barrel . . . Really?

#51
Keystone Accuracy has a longstanding reputation in the NRA Highpower shooting community for building accurate training 22LR AR15 uppers. Yeah, they ain't cheap but they are accurate.

AR-22 Barrels – Keystone Accuracy

keystoneaccuracy.com keystoneaccuracy.com
BoreBuddy uppers are only a bit more accurate (if barely) compared to using a cheap AR15 adaptor kit for 22LR that just "spit-balls" the 22 down the barrel.
 
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#53
DownhillFromHere said:
I haven't seen a 457 yet that doesn't shoot well - assuming it's fed decent ammo. Having a box of rounds say "Match" on it means absolutely nothing. Most of the high-end .22 brands/labels actually don't use the word "match" - and my remaining stock of RWS R100 actually uses the word "Matchless" in its labeling!

What is "well?" I'd say 3/8" at 50 for 10-shot groups at 50 yards, 1" or slightly more at 100. A nationally respected rimfire builder (Modacam Custom Rifles) who worked on my Rim-X told me that no .22LR rifle is capable of shooting sub-MOA 100-yard groups on a consistent basis. The limitation is the ammo, not the rifle. Stay at this awhile and you'll learn why. Yes, I've produced any number of 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards with both my Vudoo and Rim-X. But the next group will open up to the more typical inch or so.

--long-ish example follows--
Not long after the 457 variants came to market, I met a guy at my "home" range with one - I think it was either the Varmint or MTR.

He wasn't happy - getting 1.5+ inch groups at 50 yards. I was shooting rimfire that day. I asked him about the rifle... he said [paraphrasing], " I thought these things were supposed to be accurate."

His ammo was sitting next to the rifle on his bench. One of those big jugs of bulk ammo.

I gave him a box of Wolf Match Target (pre-2018 lot, it was rebranded SK Standard+). He was getting 1/2-inch groups from the outset. I told him performance would likely improve even more as the SK lube coated the bore more evenly. He was ecstatic.

Interestingly, though, I ran into him a few weeks later and he was perplexed again. He had bought a couple of bricks of Wolf Match Target, and it didn't shoot nearly as well as what I gave him. I pointed out that his newly purchased ammo was NOT the same as what I gave him - Wolf Match Target manufactured after 2018 (I think that's the year) is rebranded Eley Club - different manufacturers, VERY different lubes.
--------

There's a LOT of great info about .22 rifles and ammo here on SH. Decent rimfire ammo is not cheap, it can be hard to find, and different lots of the same brand/SKU may shoot disappointingly differently (read about "lot testing"). SK Standard+ is widely regarded as the best "cheap" ammo at around $7 per 50. Lapua Center-X is great mid-range-cost at around $14-15 per 50. Eley and RWS come to mind as other quality brands at similar price points. The very best .22 SKUs run nearly $30 per box. If you get into .22 deep enough, you'll learn about the differences - and why finding and KEEPING the ammo your rifle likes can be frustrating.

Good luck, enjoy the ride.
-----Edit: The better CZ 457s (Varmint, MTR and similar) can be difficult to find. A new owner told me recently he got his by getting on a wait list at his local shop; it took a couple months I believe he said.

Edit 2: Beware videos and photos of "unicorn groups." I place zero value in a photo of one superb group. I want to see at least 10 five-shot groups, or a 1-inch grid with single rounds fired at each line crossing. A buddy of mine sent his Vudoo into Lapua's AZ test center; it produced the record 10-shot 100-meter (109 yard) group of something like .4 inches. I asked him to show me the entire test - multiple 10-shot groups. Yep. There was the .4" group, right there amongst half a dozen 1" groups.
Click to expand...
This is Rimfire truth.
 
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#54
I have Kidd LW Classic that is accurate, but if you pick up any of the CZ MTR variants they definitely put it where you aim it….
IMG_6811.jpeg
 
#56
Frank Green said:
Exactly what he said, ^^^^^

So went on the bore buddy website... if I seen it right... $195 for a finished barrel. Sorry but you get what you pay for.

They say it's a button rifled barrel but don't say who makes it for them. You could have a twist uniformity problem, bore and groove size issues, check the muzzle crown... etc...

They say Bentz chamber... that's a good all around chamber but not my pick if you want top accuracy.

I've shot plenty of semi auto guns with a good barrel on it and they shot excellent. For a while years back my small bore gun was a AR15 with a dedicated 22LR upper with a navy conversion unit. Shot as good as any bolt gun on the line. They just didn't like me shooting a semi auto even though I had to single load it for small bore on league night as they didn't like the empty brass ejecting out of the gun the way it did so they would put me on the far right of the shooting line so nobody was on my right.

The OP should ask the seller who made the blanks and who did the chamber work etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Click to expand...
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
 
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#57
welditforyou said:
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
Click to expand...
No, I always ask who made the barrel and if he is a smith who did the machining. Most who are not hiding trash will boast about the provenance of their barrel. Everyone who actually understands accuracy knows that a no name barrel is most likely hiding a trash blank and is a marketing ploy.
Threatening Frank gets you nothing he is a true gentleman and knows more about barrels than you could believe. You have an issue in that you refuse to believe what people have tried to tell you. No one is trying to bad mouth you, or at least not until now.
Truth is you bought a mystery barrel with a twist rate not suitable for the ammo you fed it (needs heavy bullets), you paired it with a low end scope/ mount in a build free of precision tricks, fed it cheap ammo and complains about the groups that should have been expected. We all have told you the truth, but you are too macho to listen, well tough go whine to your older brother and mommy that we were mean to you! Bye bye
 
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#58
welditforyou said:
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
Click to expand...
Dude, you just stepped in shit up to your crotch. Frank is one of the most trusted, respected, all-around helpful contributors to this site.

As @oldrifleman said, top-shelf vendors/builders are happy and willing to describe component sources. "Proprietary" my ancient hemorrhoidal ass. Bottom line is you didn't have a f'ing clue what you were doing, people here tried to explain why you're having trouble, and you took offense at how Frank made his points.

Good luck, hoss. You'll need it.
 
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#59
DownhillFromHere said:
Dude, you just stepped in shit up to your crotch. Frank is one of the most trusted, respected, all-around helpful contributors to this site.

As @oldrifleman said, top-shelf vendors/builders are happy and willing to describe component sources. "Proprietary" my ancient hemorrhoidal ass. Bottom line is you didn't have a f'ing clue what you were doing, people here tried to explain why you're having trouble, and you took offense at how Frank made his points.

Good luck, hoss. You'll need it.
Click to expand...
ThisX1000.
 
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#62
Ok sir, I’ve read the thread and your replies so I’ll try and break this down to the basics.
1. Rimfire is a different beast from centerfire. The bore time alone allows plenty of time to screw up the shot with movement.
2. The AR platform has a lot going for and against it. The negatives primarily would be in the upper to lower fit and butt-stock. If the stock isn’t fixed, it adds a variable. Shooting tiny groups is all about removing variables.
3. Ammo- as has already been mentioned, you are shooting crap through a match barrel and expecting it (the bore) to magically “fix” it, Sir it doesn’t work that way. You should be running at least a quality mid grade ammo to see what that build might be capable of. Further, you should “season” the bore with the ammo you are actually going to be running in it for groups. Every round fired leaves a little something behind. To get consistency, it needs to be repeatable (ie. the same residue).
4. Since it sounds like this is your first build on top of everything else, you do realize this isn’t just tabletop gun building / slapping together a match rifle. Just because parts fit together doesn’t mean they fit properly or are assembled correctly. It also doesn’t mean that things are still tight or that there isn’t a problem with either individual components or how they work together.

A. Safely dryfire the empty gun while carefully aiming at a target. The crosshairs shouldn’t jump, bounce, or come to rest at a different spot. If they move something is wrong.

B. Load a full mag and chamber that first round. Now eject it and set it aside. Chamber another round and take a couple of shots, then eject the next unfired round and set it aside as well. Repeat this till you have several rounds that have been chambered by the “firing/cycling” process.
Now, you should examine these rounds carefully, any damage to these rounds will dramatically effect your group size.
Also scoop up a few of those fired cases and examine them for uniformity. Pin strikes should be identical in position and depth, and the case wall beneath the rim shouldn’t be swollen.

C. Have a couple of friends with known abilities try some groups as well. Sometimes we have to swallow our pride and learn from others how a given rifle prefers to be “held”, ie death-gripped, free recoil, etc. etc.

I’m on the road to building a match AR rimfire myself. It can be a frustrating or rewarding experience, just depends on your mindset.
 
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#63
obx22 said:
Ok sir, I’ve read the thread and your replies so I’ll try and break this down to the basics.
1. Rimfire is a different beast from centerfire. The bore time alone allows plenty of time to screw up the shot with movement.
2. The AR platform has a lot going for and against it. The negatives primarily would be in the upper to lower fit and butt-stock. If the stock isn’t fixed, it adds a variable. Shooting tiny groups is all about removing variables.
3. Ammo- as has already been mentioned, you are shooting crap through a match barrel and expecting it (the bore) to magically “fix” it, Sir it doesn’t work that way. You should be running at least a quality mid grade ammo to see what that build might be capable of. Further, you should “season” the bore with the ammo you are actually going to be running in it for groups. Every round fired leaves a little something behind. To get consistency, it needs to be repeatable (ie. the same residue).
4. Since it sounds like this is your first build on top of everything else, you do realize this isn’t just tabletop gun building / slapping together a match rifle. Just because parts fit together doesn’t mean they fit properly or are assembled correctly. It also doesn’t mean that things are still tight or that there isn’t a problem with either individual components or how they work together.

A. Safely dryfire the empty gun while carefully aiming at a target. The crosshairs shouldn’t jump, bounce, or come to rest at a different spot. If they move something is wrong.

B. Load a full mag and chamber that first round. Now eject it and set it aside. Chamber another round and take a couple of shots, then eject the next unfired round and set it aside as well. Repeat this till you have several rounds that have been chambered by the “firing/cycling” process.
Now, you should examine these rounds carefully, any damage to these rounds will dramatically effect your group size.
Also scoop up a few of those fired cases and examine them for uniformity. Pin strikes should be identical in position and depth, and the case wall beneath the rim shouldn’t be swollen.

C. Have a couple of friends with known abilities try some groups as well. Sometimes we have to swallow our pride and learn from others how a given rifle prefers to be “held”, ie death-gripped, free recoil, etc. etc.

I’m on the road to building a match AR rimfire myself. It can be a frustrating or rewarding experience, just depends on your mindset.
Click to expand...
This is the truth!
 
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#64
As a follow up to my earlier post here are some targets from this weekend. These were shot from 50-yds and you can see my set up. The lower has a Daniel Defense trigger. It's a pretty high pull but breaks very crisp. I'm not sure this is the right lower for the upper but it shot alright. I'm also using the 2A Armament bolt with BB barrel. This is the titanium bolt that was on the market for awhile a couple years back. Very sleek design but oddly enough it didn't work very well with the barrel that came with. I'm shooting that with a normal CMMG bolt. Anyway here we go...I clearly didn't like the CCI Mini-mags. These were the 40gr "target" loads. I then shot (4) groups with Eley Tenex where the last two groups were just under 0.60". Not too much to bragg about with the Norma Match22; nor with the SK Rifle Match. It did seem to tighten up pretty good with the SK St. Plus. All of cycled fine and I used Black Dog Mags, S&W 15-22 mags, and KRISS mags. All worked great.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that this is better or even as good as most 1:16 twist "match" barrels but I'm convinced the barrel is capable. I need to shoot it more and dial in on the ammo it prefers. Looks like Std Plus is a good candidate.

edit: this is the 21" BoreBuddy Apogee Match barrel if that wasn't clear.
 

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#65
welditforyou said:
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
Click to expand...
Bud wasn't digging on you at all! Or being insulting at all or arrogant etc...

It's a simple question... who made the blanks... if they are using a quality supplier... I would think they would be willing to tell you. Even if button rifled blanks there are some button makers that have different levels (quality) of button rifled barrels. For some button makers... this has a difference on cost of what they make/sell.

No I didn't see the different price structures originally. I had to go back and look at that link again. Sorry I missed it.

Some button makers like Douglas and Shilen for example... the more you pay for the blank..... what you are paying for is the bore and groove size being closer to proper/min spec. So if your bore sizes are oversize/technically lets say out of spec... or you have a twist uniformity problem... barrel is going to be very temperamental as to what it will like to shoot and if shoot good at all.

And I don't have a problem having a conversation face to face with you...

I/we've helped guys out here in the shop even when the barrel was suppose to be ours and ended up not being ours and helped guys sort out things out here on the hide when they didn't know what to do.

So take my help here as it is... and I take back the offer back of even helping anymore.

I'm done with this thread!
 
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#66
Wow, insult Frank? Really? One of the few if not only industry guys who is here to dispense advice and help?
He has never bad mouthed anyone here, never a snide comment, no self or business promotion. Just a helpful guy who always conducts himself well.

I think the OP should move along with his cheap barrel, cheap ammo and limited intellect.

I am not as nice as Frank. :)
 
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#67
RTH1800 said:
Wow, insult Frank? Really? One of the few if not only industry guys who is here to dispense advice and help?
He has never bad mouthed anyone here, never a snide comment, no self or business promotion. Just a helpful guy who always conducts himself well.

I think the OP should move along with his cheap barrel, cheap ammo and limited intellect.

I am not as nice as Frank. :)
Click to expand...
Me neither
 
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#68
RTH1800 said:
Wow, insult Frank? Really? One of the few if not only industry guys who is here to dispense advice and help?
He has never bad mouthed anyone here, never a snide comment, no self or business promotion. Just a helpful guy who always conducts himself well.

I think the OP should move along with his cheap barrel, cheap ammo and limited intellect.

I am not as nice as Frank. :)
Click to expand...
Mashing one of the only, if not THE only guy I’ve seen post up prints, and numbers for countless projects.

This guy is super special I think. Good luck OP, maybe you’ll find the magic rimfire setup so many have been searching for. Please come back and share when you do.
 
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#69
welditforyou said:
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
Click to expand...

One of the nicest guys and biggest brains in the barrel making industry just replied to you in a very polite manner.

You officially screwed up.
 
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#74
welditforyou said:
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see you're just stupid.

Carry on then. We can't help you.
 
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#75
Will with BoreBuddy here on my personal account. We were pointed to this thread by a customer and gave it a read and then pulled records from contact with OP which was about 1 month ago. OP emailed us stating this:

CMMG bolt, ALL of the BB bolt add-ons, AND . . . your match grade 21" barrel, also has PSA 3.5 match drop-in trigger.
The rifle cycles just fine. My concern is about the lack of accuracy. I'm getting 2" groups @50 yds. I haven't been to 100yds yet due to time constraints. I've run 150rds through the barrel. This includes sighting in
a new scope. This rifle is of course a new build.
Ammo used:
CCI mini-mags 36 grn 1260 fps yield approx.3.5" @ 50yds
Norma Tac-22 40 grn 1083 fps yield approx. 2" @ 50 yds
Federal champion 36 grn 1260 fps yield MINUTE OF TEN GALLON HAT
meaning it was horrible as far as accuracy is concerned.
Click to expand...

I personally responded to him the following:

What scope are you using? The barrel takes about 500 rounds to develop a good season internally before groups settle in.

That said, 22lr accuracy is heavily ammo dependant -- you'll want to get some higher quality ammo to start, CCI SV is our bare minimum if there is an expectation of accuracy. I'd say buy a brick or two of SV and shoot all of one brick before looking at groups and doing ammo type and lot testing to find one your rifle likes.

Norma can shoot decent groups (2moa give or take, depending on the lot), but the other two are not known for accuracy. How many shots in each group and what were the conditions? What type of rest? Have you shot the same ammo lots through another 22lr and had better results?
Click to expand...

We got no response from OP after that.

These are generally 1-2moa barrels with an ammo type they like. @erik72's results are typical. It's not a $1000 barrel and the platform does have some limitations as compared to a CZ457 or similar. They do provide a great level of practical accuracy while maintaining a level of reliability that can get you through a day of use without issues. The AR22 is more suited to more dynamic rimfire shooting than benchrest. If you're buying a $300 barrel and putting it in an AR22 platform and expecting to shoot competitively with CZ457s and such, you'll be disappointed.

We encourage OP to get in touch with us so we can get that barrel back for evaluation/replacement if he got a dud that shoots as poorly as he says with some high(er) quality ammo. CCI SV is our standard test ammo for practical accuracy. Most AR22 shooters are not buying Tenex (nor should they).

"
 
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#79
Die4toys said:
If it were me, I would get some better ammo and shoot a few boxes of several kinds before giving up.

I would get the following if you can find them:
SK Standard Plus
Norma Match
Wolf Match Extra

These aren't cheap, but they don't cost as much as Lapua CenterX or Eley Match, and the SK and Norma shoot well in all my .22s, including my 10/22s with Match barrels. Wolf shoots really well in one, but not all my .22s.

If you can't get decent groups with any of these, I would be looking for a different barrel, but that's just me.

Good luck! I know how frustrating it can be to throw $$$ at "accuracy" and come up short.
Click to expand...
I like that you mentioned Wolf Match Extra. It's a step up in price for sure but a good suggestion for something that may yield different results for a little more coin (although I seemed to have better luck with it while Lapua was producing it as compared to Eley which is the current manufacturer to my understanding).

-LD
 
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#80
welditforyou said:
So you went to the sight. You clicked on the barrel link. Did you see the link for his "match" barrels?
I said that in the very beginning. Their match barrel is $305. Does that get a customer any more than
the blaster barrel.
Ask the seller who made the blanks . . . . that falls under the heading of proprietary information doesn't it?
Prolly wouldn't answer it anyway. As for the twist rate, I ask him about that to.
Is this how you talk to other people who haven't bought your brand of barrel or is this just you being arrogant/insulting.
I came here to ask a question of why? I don't want or need any smart assed remarks from internet tough guys.
I suppose it's a blessing we aren't face to face as I'm sure this conversation would be different.
Click to expand...
I certainly understand that you're frustrated, heck I'd be frustrated too especially if I was expecting the results that you outlined. It may not have seemed like it at the time and I don't know the gentleman personally so please consider this an independent/impartial opinion but @Frank Green truly gave you some fantastic advice (that would likely benefit you and help you solve your problem rapidly).

I'd humbly suggest that you recollect yourself and re-read the advice/suggestions you were given here. Also (please) keep in mind that within 2 days of you initiating the post, you have an owner from Bartlein Barrels (one of the top dogs in the the entire industry) taking time out of their day to try and help you and at no point (that I've seen at least) did they say throw what you just spent your hard earned money on in the trash and buy from them but rather give you inputs to the question you asked to help solve your problem (again, for a product that he gains no benefit from by helping you).

Not meaning for this to come across as 'chastising' you but rather to put this in a different perspective than you may have initially seen due to your frustration. If the comments/suggested added to your frustration (and I would certainly understand if and why they did), with an open mind I'd be willing to suggest that you'd be able to ask subsequent questions to better understand what is being suggested and why.

Just my 2 cents,

-LD
 
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#81
Holy mackerel,

This thread wasn't anything I was expecting to walk into but it held my attention for sure. @welditforyou - again not to come across as being hostile but it sounds like you've got @renaissanceman from BoreBuddy and @Frank Green from Bartlein Barrels all participating in the thread along with several other very knowledgeable posters here that have been trying to get you squared away but (whether or not it was your intention) you've likely come across in a manner that isn't beneficial to resolving your problem. If you're ok with that- then that's your business but there's a lot of folks using their personal time to make you happy and get you shooting.

As others have mentioned, rimfire is a different animal all together. I'm going in either my 5th or 6th year of shooting NRL22 and just to put things in perspective, I shoot with VERY good people using VERY good equipment (you'll have to take my word on it but I don't want to bring attention to any of those folks). Me, I do alright but I mainly do it for fun and am just glad to be friends with them and all that I was able to learn shooting with them for years. But even with arguably the best equipment (including rifle receivers, barrels, optics, bipods, shooting bags, stocks/chassis, etc) I really do need to echo what others here continually reference and that's ammo.

Every year, heck more likely twice a year, most of our crew travels to the Lapua testing center in Ohio to get their very high end rigs matched with factory lots of ammo. And I've got to tell you, in the... 6-8+ times that they've done this, with an entire shooting clubs worth of rifles, even then, Lapua has lots of their Center-x, Midas+, X-act (going up in price) that just doesn't cooperate in their rifles. Lot X might give lousy groups in one of their rifles and be the best in another one's. They usually have to test around a dozen or so lots before they're happy with the 'match'.

I just did that this year and I cannot even begin to explain how big of a difference that made for me and my scores moving forward and (just for disclosure) this was with a Kidd Supergrade and I had been shooting ammo like SK Rifle Match, Lapua Center-X, Midas+, Eley Tenet, etc). Also keep in mind, that when it comes to 'seasoning' the barrel, a lot of the bullets mentioned here are not the same in construction, tolerances, bullet lube (that was the seasoning part) etc. Not a flex or an argument that you just haven't spent enough/whatever, just attempting to illustrate how fickle rimfire can be and how so important ammo choices are and explain that the ammunition you've mentioned using and what your expectations are (and that's assuming that there isn't 20 other potential issues that may be keeping you from your accuracy performance goals) are just not aligned with folks that do this regularly and have felt the pain of chasing this personally.

I really hope that you'll reconsider, catch your breath and work with the folks that are trying to get you squared away (with no personal benefit) other than wanting to help a fellow shooter out and hopefully once you get squared away you too can pass some of what you learned onto others getting into it. That's what's it's all about and why most of us participate here after all.

Anywho, thank you for sharing your story/experiences. I truly do hope that you're able to get things worked out and can be a happy customer/shooter.

-LD
 
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#82
For the OP and anyone else that has it in their head that they want to shoot precision rimfire, my best advise is to get it out of your head and RUN AWAY. For about 40 years now I've been an avid shooter and competed on a local level in many different disciplines ranging from handguns to various centerfire and rimfire.

Nothing will have you tearing your hair out like rimfire will. Even if you can afford the best of everything in terms of equipment, you will always be at the mercy of ammunition. The only control you will have over ammunition will be determined by how deep your pockets are. Performance is going to vary from brand to brand, differing lines within brands and from lot to lot.

Still, if you want to get into it without going nuts, the CZ platform is pretty darned good. Just don't piece meal it. I started with a 457 Varmint, invested $500 in a Lilja barrel, did what I could to tighten up the fit and headspaced to .043. It shoots pretty darned good, but if I had it to do over again, I'd get on the phone with Desert Precision or Modacam Customs and just order a barreled action and save yourself the headache.
 
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#83
TonyAngel said:
For the OP and anyone else that has it in their head that they want to shoot precision rimfire, my best advise is to get it out of your head and RUN AWAY. For about 40 years now I've been an avid shooter and competed on a local level in many different disciplines ranging from handguns to various centerfire and rimfire.

Nothing will have you tearing your hair out like rimfire will. Even if you can afford the best of everything in terms of equipment, you will always be at the mercy of ammunition. The only control you will have over ammunition will be determined by how deep your pockets are. Performance is going to vary from brand to brand, differing lines within brands and from lot to lot.

Still, if you want to get into it without going nuts, the CZ platform is pretty darned good. Just don't piece meal it. I started with a 457 Varmint, invested $500 in a Lilja barrel, did what I could to tighten up the fit and headspaced to .043. It shoots pretty darned good, but if I had it to do over again, I'd get on the phone with Desert Precision or Modacam Customs and just order a barreled action and save yourself the headache.
Click to expand...
Well said sir,

And much better surmised than what I was trying to accomplish with my previous posts here despite it being the same message.

-LD
 
#87
So I started to reply with a funny fly poop response but then thought, NO. I really think we still need to help @welditforyou. I know I'm fairly new here on the Hide, but I joined so I could have the "best of the best" help me with my questions. I'm not dissing the guy poop, it's funny, but does @welditforyou still need our help? Welding, if you are not interested anymore, could you tell us?
 
#91
Die4toys said:
So I started to reply with a funny fly poop response but then thought, NO. I really think we still need to help @welditforyou. I know I'm fairly new here on the Hide, but I joined so I could have the "best of the best" help me with my questions. I'm not dissing the guy poop, it's funny, but does @welditforyou still need our help? Welding, if you are not interested anymore, could you tell us?
Click to expand...
Many tried to help him, he would not at least then, see it as positive info. He has not been back in a week. If he came back and asked a question we would reach out again. But this thread is done and now is about shooting flys ( which is very rewarding BTW😂).
 
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#94
welditforyou said:
I recently purchased a 21" 1:12 match barrel from a dedicated .22LR small business operator.
I also bought the bolt buffer, add on weights for the buffer, bolt silencer and other stuff to make
the AR-22 build more accurate. I have fired close to 500 rds of a variety of ammo beginning with
the bulk ammo of Federal 36gn 1200ish fps along with Brownings offerings and Aguila, CCI and
Blazer of about the same velocity. Also, I shot some SK auto match, Federal auto match and some
Norma tac-22 and CCI standard velocity ammo. The best grouping I could get was about 2" @50yds.
This is not what I was expecting from a "MATCH" barrel. I am very disappointed to say the least in the
accuracy of this "MATCH" barrel. I emailed the owner of the business who has these barrels made for
him and got about every excuse possible for the lack of accuracy like;
What scope are you using?
CCI standard velocity is the bare minimum for any accuracy.
It takes about 500 rds to get a good season on the barrel before the accuracy would settle in.
What lots am I firing?
Look . . . I get that some ammo is more accurate than another, but 500rds . . . really?
I bought a Savage axis xp in 6.5 CM and was getting MOA with Winchester white box right after unboxing.
What I'm getting at is. Am I expecting too much from what is supposed to be a match grade barrel?
To me it sounds like someone not standing behind their product and blaming anything else except themselves.
Some insight here would be helpful so as to not let this negativity get out of control.
I've seen some of the pics you guys have posted of pages of targets with 1/2" groups.
Click to expand...
Shooting shit ammo and expecting something other than shit groups is like putting walmart tires on a NASCAR and expecting to win Daytona.
 
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#97
hlee said:
Well heck, if you shoot in a barn stall, you have plenty of opportunities to pull a shot into a fly… 🤣
Click to expand...
…barn stalls make wind calls easier….
Big Phish said:
Agreed but it’s the person behind the rifle can be a very bad shooter with bad trigger control too.
Click to expand...
During my PMI days we often said that the problem usually wasn’t the dope on the weapon but the dope behind the weapon.
 
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