300-600 yard optic?

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

Got invited to start shooting steel @ 300-600 yards at my buddies club. I didn't have anything capable (my mini 30 is a joke for accuracy) and I primarily shoot AR22's at 50-100 yards.

So I ended up un-dedicating one of my AR lowers and found and bought (I'm ready to get flamed for this) ...a BCA 223 Wylde, 20" heavy, unthreaded barrel. Being in NY, having the barrel unthreaded is one less thing to address for making it featureless... anyway, $235 delivered, it gets me into trying distance on the cheap.

Next up is an optic. For the meantime I'm going to use a Burris Fullfield E1, 4.5-14, but I want a dedicated scope, I will probably will buy something after the holidays. I do try to stay away from China stuff if I can, but it's not always avoidable.

Anyway, I'm going between the arken sh4 and the swfa 10x... leaning towards the swfa. I don't need, or honestly want all the bells and whistles. I like the idea of simple and durable. I understand the swfa is dated, but still pertinent, and I've heard good things about the sh4.

I realize they are 2 very different scopes, but in the price range I'm looking for, those 2 appeal to me most.

Just looking for opinions, or possibly other options to look at that I haven't discovered. My budget for this set-up is about $500 delivered, including a decent mount.

Thanks!
DW

oldrifleman · Nov 2, 2024

Hey with your budget and experience ( AR over. Bolt). Use what you have and have fun. Others at the shoot will likely be into bolt guns and big expensive scopes. The 223 wylde will get you to 600 without too much trouble. Get good ammo, 69-77 gr hollow point boat tail match is reasonable. And have fun, the other shooters will help you with getting on target. Enjoy!

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

Thanks... pretty much what I was thinking as well. I do want another scope in my lineup, so it may not be dedicated to this particular rifle. But still thinking about either one of those scopes.

Speaking of what I have...I could also pull an older, rebuilt Lyman All American 20x off my 22lr target rifle... that might get some curious stares on the line...

db2000 · Nov 2, 2024

Best bang for buck. Way better glass than SH4. You’ll appreciate the higher mag sometimes when shooting your 22 at 100. Probably stay around 12-15x to spot your misses at 300-600.

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powdahound76 · Nov 2, 2024

Shoot for a while and see.
Ask others to look through their scopes.
For your budget, Arken or Athlon are going to be contenders.
The one posted seems to work

Try some of the PSA made AAC 77 gr OTM if you can get ahold of it.

Has proven decent for me to 600 yds, in a Wylde chamber.
A higher end barrel and one never knows.

Early Sept my buddy was shooting his older cheap DPMS with 55 gr M193 and was just dandy at 270 and 360.
50% hits at 501 yds on a 10” x 10” plate and his misses were just off.
Milspec trigger too
Very close.
So, even with that you can have fun, but consistency isnt there.

TonyAngel · Nov 2, 2024

Are you looking to turn this rifle into a range rifle or do you want to keep some versatility?

I'd argue that the arken is going to be more versatile, have as good or better turrets and a zero stop. The SWFA is going to be sort of a 1 trick pony.

Im usually shooting between 200 and 500 yards and I run 1-8x LPVOs and 2-10 or 2-12x scopes. The LPVO does fine, and the 2-10x just makes it easier.

TonyAngel · Nov 2, 2024

You don't have to go nuts on the ammo either. You can make good hits with decent m193 provided that the wind isn't too wonky. I run a lot of pmc xtac and it's been a solid 2 moa ammo out of my criterion barrels. If you want to spend a bit, the 69gr adi stuff shoots well. The AAC ammo has been hit or miss for me. Velocity is sometimes all over the place, but if youre shooting at taller steel, it shouldn't be a problem.

diverdon · Nov 2, 2024

For your requirements budget and experience I would look for a scope with a reticle that allowed me to use my dope to engage targets at those ranges without having to make adjustments with the turrets.

Turrets in that price range could be iffy. And getting lost in your mind about where your dialed too can cause unnecessary misses.

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

Kind of a single purpose rifle, that's why I went cheap on the upper. I also have no use for the caliber other than doing this..And it's just informal fun, nothing competitive.

The scope will probably eventually go on a couple different rifles though.... but who knows

FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

This beats the Arken glass by a noticeably amount, and this sentiment has been echoed by several on here...Even though it's a brand new optic, it's getting lots of mention for the budget scopes discussions. I have one, and it's impressive for the price. I've had Arkens, and won't buy another one. But I'd buy another one of these in a heartbeat. I've also owned SWFA's for many years, and finally got rid of all of them recently after letting them just sit and collect dust. Won't buy another one of those, either.

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nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

You say you won't buy an Arken or SWFA again...why?

That DNT is more than I'm looking to spend for the use I want it for.

Rob01 · Nov 2, 2024

Get those from Doug. They are in stock and you will have them in about 3 days and they are in stock.

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atomic41 · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
Anyway, I'm going between the arken sh4 and the swfa 10x... leaning towards the swfa. I don't need, or honestly want all the bells and whistles. I like the idea of simple and durable. I understand the swfa is dated, but still pertinent, and I've heard good things about the sh4.

Based on what you said here, you can't go wrong with SWFA. They are not up to speed with all the modern features, but for learning, durability, great glass and rock solid reliability it's a great option.

FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
You say you won't buy an Arken or SWFA again...why?

That DNT is more than I'm looking to spend for the use I want it for.

Because the SWFA is overpriced, and was top of the line..............In 1990.

And I've owned 5 Arkens, and will never own another one. 2 were lemons out of the box, and those replacement scopes were better, but still had massive amounts of CA in the entire image. If you can't afford anything more than the Arkens, then it will be the best option for the money. But if you could save up a couple hundred more and get the DNT, you would be lightyears ahead in glass quality over the SH4 and Gen1 EP5 5-25x56 scopes. I've owned several of each. I'm just trying to save you money in the long run, based on my own poor choices that cost me my hard-earned money.

FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

atomic41 said:
Based on what you said here, you can't go wrong with SWFA. They are not up to speed with all the modern features, but for learning, durability, great glass and rock solid reliability it's a great option.

They don't even have a zero-stop...Literally the cheapest to design feature they could add. It's as simple as drilling a hole for a pin in the tower, and a groove in the inside of the turret... Glass is definitely dated, as well. They are durable though...I'll give them that.

st1650 · Nov 2, 2024

FuhQ said:
Because the SWFA is overpriced, and was top of the line..............In 1990.

And I've owned 5 Arkens, and will never own another one. 2 were lemons out of the box, and those replacement scopes were better, but still had massive amounts of CA in the entire image. If you can't afford anything more than the Arkens, then it will be the best option for the money. But if you could save up a couple hundred more and get the DNT, you would be lightyears ahead in glass quality over the SH4 and Gen1 EP5 5-25x56 scopes. I've owned several of each. I'm just trying to save you money in the long run, based on my own poor choices that cost me my hard-earned money.

Dude you spent months shilling Arken and now you’re shilling another newcomer …

FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

st1650 said:
Dude you spent months shilling Arken and now you’re shilling another newcomer …

And until you own either of them, eat a dick. I'm not shilling a goddamn thing, so you can fuck off. People like you are what make this forum repugnant to others. You act like you're morally superior to people, when in reality, I bet you're just as fucking miserable and annoying in real life as you are on here. I feel sorry for the people who know you, and the others just like you on here.

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

FuhQ said:
And until you own either of them, eat a dick. I'm not shilling a goddamn thing, so you can fuck off. People like you are what make this forum repugnant to others. You act like you're morally superior to people, when in reality, I bet you're just as fucking miserable and annoying in real life as you are on here. I feel sorry for the people who know you, and the others just like you on here.

Actually, this is type of response is repugnant.

I didn't come into this blind...I've done research & read plenty here and other places (and enough of your stuff to know what to expect)...not saying it isn't valid, but you should scale your answers appropriately to the question asked...which everyone else did.

You don't know me, I don't know you... don't assume anything. I'm shopping to a specific price point for a reason...it doesn't mean I can't afford whatever

oldrifleman · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
Actually, this is type of response is repugnant.

I didn't come into this blind...I've done research & read plenty here and other places (and enough of your stuff to know what to expect)...not saying it isn't valid, but you should scale your answers appropriately to the question asked...which everyone else did.

You don't know me, I don't know you... don't assume anything. I'm shopping to a specific price point for a reason...it doesn't mean I can't afford whatever

Yeah, but you come in un-informed with a low price point and people point out that it is un-reasonable to do what you want to do. And suggest the need to up the budget. Take the advice for what you paid for it.

FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
Actually, this is type of response is repugnant.

I didn't come into this blind...I've done research & read plenty here and other places (and enough of your stuff to know what to expect)...not saying it isn't valid, but you should scale your answers appropriately to the question asked...which everyone else did.

You don't know me, I don't know you... don't assume anything. I'm shopping to a specific price point for a reason...it doesn't mean I can't afford whatever

And I also didn't quote you, nor was I responding to you with that response. Enjoy your scope.

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

Uninformed... personally, I don't think so. Inexperienced in this, sure. I did my research and asked about 2 specific options that fit the price range I'm looking to be in.

Admittedly, this is a new venture for me and I asked for other options in my price range and got some good advice...and I appreciate that.

Upping the budget on something I'm barely willing to spend money on is a hard ask. So my stated budget...is what I'm willing to spend....get it?

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

FuhQ said:
And I also didn't quote you, nor was I responding to you with that response. Enjoy your scope.

Maybe not, but it was still a shit response....

KYAggie · Nov 2, 2024

powdahound76 said:
Shoot for a while and see.
Ask others to look through their scopes.

^^^^This right here! Your Burris will suite you fine for the first several outings. Look at your buddies scopes then buy something. Don’t overlook this deal below on an Ares ETR and for goodness sake don’t buy a MOA scope. Also, don’t sell your BCM short, I have one with a 16” chrome lined barrel and it’s a surprisingly good shooter. The picture is a recent group with M855 ammo, and it has an old Vortex PST 1-4 on it. It says “RRA” in the picture because it’s on a Rock River lower, but it’s a BCM built upper and bolt.

I’ll add this. Today at the range I was able to look through a Athlon Helos BTR Gen 2 2-10x42 and 6-24. They were ok, but noticeably not as good as my ETR, especially the eye box on top magnification. I invited the owner to look through my ETR and his response was , “WOW”. I’m guessing he had no idea I paid about the same for my ETR that he likely paid for his Helos. I had him take a couple shots at 500 on the steel and he was impressed, he hit it every time.

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FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
Maybe not, but it was still a shit response....

That being so... What would you call his completely unprofessional and random smartass comment that was completely unnecessary and unproductive to this thread in literally every single way possible, that provoked said "shit response"...? Or am I still the bad guy? If so, by all means, hit the ignore button.

koshkin · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
Uninformed... personally, I don't think so. Inexperienced in this, sure. I did my research and asked about 2 specific options that fit the price range I'm looking to be in.

Admittedly, this is a new venture for me and I asked for other options in my price range and got some good advice...and I appreciate that.

Upping the budget on something I'm barely willing to spend money on is a hard ask. So my stated budget...is what I'm willing to spend....get it?

If you want to avoid chinese-made optics and you are on a budget, your options are somewhat limited.
You correctly identified SWFA fixed power scopes, although I'd be looking at the 12x.
There are a few Phillipine-made scope out there you can take a look at, but nicer ones end up relatively more expensive. The most logical option would be the new Vortex Viper HD 5-25x50 or PST Gen2 3-15x44, but it is a different price range.
While the SWFA is often frowned upon by people who want more features, it is hard to argue against the track record and the sound fundamentals of that scope.
I still have their 10x42 Classic with side focus and 10x42HD with rear focus and like them a good bit. There is something about the simplicity of a fixed power scope that has always appealed to me, so I have a good number of them here.
You will get more features for your money with a Chinese scope and quite a few of them have become very good.
If I were looking in that direction, I'd probably be looking at Element Helix or something along those lines. I do not trust the consistency of the Arkens and I have not laid eyes on DNT, so I can not comment on that.
I know Athlon guys well and they support their products nicely, but I have not tried anything from them less expensive than Helos BTR Gen2 2-12x42.
Now that I think about it, if you are comfortable with a Chinese scope, Vortex Venom 3-15x44 is a good option and it is under $400.

ILya

Rob01 · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
Upping the budget on something I'm barely willing to spend money on is a hard ask. So my stated budget...is what I'm willing to spend....get it?

That's totally understandable and why I put the recommendation I did. I had an older SH4 and it wasn't the best but I was hitting steel out to 600 easy and past that. The newer SH4J with the Japanese glass is supposed to be better glass so it will do what you want without a problem and keep your budget under $500.

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

FuhQ said:
That being so... What would you call his completely unprofessional and random smartass comment that was completely unnecessary and unproductive to this thread in literally every single way possible, that provoked said "shit response"...? Or am I still the bad guy? If so, by all means, hit the ignore button.

You're right. I should have called that fuckstick out for not staying in topic.

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

koshkin said:
If you want to avoid chinese-made optics and you are on a budget, your options are somewhat limited.
You correctly identified SWFA fixed power scopes, although I'd be looking at the 12x.
There are a few Phillipine-made scope out there you can take a look at, but nicer ones end up relatively more expensive. The most logical option would be the new Vortex Viper HD 5-25x50 or PST Gen2 3-15x44, but it is a different price range.
While the SWFA is often frowned upon by people who want more features, it is hard to argue against the track record and the sound fundamentals of that scope.
I still have their 10x42 Classic with side focus and 10x42HD with rear focus and like them a good bit. There is something about the simplicity of a fixed power scope that has always appealed to me, so I have a good number of them here.
You will get more features for your money with a Chinese scope and quite a few of them have become very good.
If I were looking in that direction, I'd probably be looking at Element Helix or something along those lines. I do not trust the consistency of the Arkens and I have not laid eyes on DNT, so I can not comment on that.
I know Athlon guys well and they support their products nicely, but I have not tried anything from them less expensive than Helos BTR Gen2 2-12x42.
Now that I think about it, if you are comfortable with a Chinese scope, Vortex Venom 3-15x44 is a good option and it is under $400.

ILya

Yeah, it's a hard ask to not get a made in China optic in the price range I'm looking in. There are some options though....

I'm not completely shutting off the MIC thing, but it's preference.

I watched some of your vids...I'm a fan.

FuhQ · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
You're right. I should have called that fuckstick out for not staying in topic.

You're starting to sound like you've been on here a while already.

Keep up that attitude, and you'll go far on here.

nevadany · Nov 2, 2024

KYAggie said:
^^^^This right here! Your Burris will suite you fine for the first several outings. Look at your buddies scopes then buy something. Don’t overlook this deal below on an Ares ETR and for goodness sake don’t buy a MOA scope. Also, don’t sell your BCM short, I have one with a 16” chrome lined barrel and it’s a surprisingly good shooter. The picture is a recent group with M855 ammo, and it has an old Vortex PST 1-4 on it. It says “RRA” in the picture because it’s on a Rock River lower, but it’s a BCM built upper and bolt.

I’ll add this. Today at the range I was able to look through a Athlon Helos BTR Gen 2 2-10x42 and 6-24. They were ok, but noticeably not as good as my ETR, especially the eye box on top magnification. I invited the owner to look through my ETR and his response was , “WOW”. I’m guessing he had no idea I paid about the same for my ETR that he likely paid for his Helos. I had him take a couple shots at 500 on the steel and he was impressed, he hit it every time.

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FREE SHIPPING on Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50mm APRS6 FFP IR MIL Riflescope 212106

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View attachment 8537686

I've got a couple of the E1 4.5-14's...I think they are great for the money. Like I mentioned, I use one on an AR-22 from 50-100 yards effectively, and I put one on my son's (he's 13) 10/22 and he does quite well with it. We've done a couple NRL22 shoots and held our own. I did CMP summer league this year, with mine and did very well.

DM1975 · Nov 2, 2024

You’re gonna get a lot of opinions when you ask about glass. Truthfully most of the optics out there today arent too bad. Of course a cheap scope will always be a cheap scope, and you run the risk of qc issues with some companies, but the best thing to do really is to try some out and see what you like or want. Once you start shooting behind one it’ll be more clear to you what features you might not think you need now but really want later, vice versa.

Coming from a military background I was quite confident that I only needed a 10x scope with mil dots way back when, and then I was able to try a couple other scopes with different features and reticles after my first PRS style match back when it first started and my mind changed very quickly. Same with my rifle setup. Not saying I couldn’t still get by with a 10x with mil dots and moa turrets and a rifle with an internal magazine but if I have my choice in the matter you know?

KYAggie · Nov 2, 2024

nevadany said:
I've got a couple of the e1 4.5-14's...i think they are great for the money. Like I mentioned, I use one on an AR-22 from 50-100 yards effectively, and I put on on my son's (he's 13) 10/22 and he does quite well with it. We've done a couple NRL22 shoots and held our own. I've done a CMP summer leagues with mine and did very well.

Those scopes punch well above their price. Thats why I recommend the unsexy fiscally conservative approach to use it for several outings. It’s a great scope. It’s not “tacticool” per se, but very useful and you’ll find even at 600 yards, very effective. I have a Burris RT 1-6 that I stuck on a Marlin 336 Cowboy 30-30 just to see what that gun was capable of before I put decent open sights on it. It has a 24” Octogan barrel and they only made around 3000 of them. I literally was shooting it at 600 yards one day and I hit a 14”x16” steel target 4 out of 5 times. I had my phone in a phone Skope on my spotting scope and slow mo videoed the shots. Strelok ballistics app had that reticle and it said to turn the power down to 4x and hold on the bottom of the post. It was spot on. I also have a 2-7 Scout on a M1 Garand and when sighted in at 200, the hold over marks work out to 600 with HXP mil surplus. What more can I ask for.

Use you Burris. Take a deep breath. Figure out what your real needs are and buy appropriately. Guys on here get wrapped up suggesting things, but you’re the only one who knows what your real needs are and you have to filter suggestions through your thoughts. That said, there’s a ton of good information on here to help you.

TonyAngel · Nov 2, 2024

For your stated purpose, which is pretty much just messing around, I run an arken on my rimfire rifle at almost the distances you're talking about, and it does its job. The glass is more than reasonably good, considering the price, but more importantly, the turrets track well.

If you stretch your budget a bit, like $400, i think i like the athlon argos 2-12x better. Athlon, arken ... either will get the job done.

Don't listen to the guys talking about chromatic aberration and crap like that. What you're looking for in your price range is something that isn't debilitating in it's shortcomings. You need to be able to see what you're shooting at and you need the turrets to do what they say they're doing. Arken or athlon will do that.

If you want to talk about $1.5k plus scopes, that would be a completely different conversation.

nevadany · Nov 3, 2024

Forgot to mention another one I was/am looking at (before I came across the 2 options I asked about in this thread) is the Sightron S-TAC FFP 3-16x42 with the zero Stop. It's at the top of my budget, but I like the features and that it's made in the Philippines.

Varmint-Hunter · Nov 3, 2024

Got an Arken SH4 Gen2 4-16 yesterday, mine is extremely clear has great turret clicks and the illumination is pretty good but I would prefer if it could be brighter for easier reticle pickup at 4x.

Cr1775 · Nov 3, 2024

nevadany said:
Forgot to mention another one I was/am looking at (before I came across the 2 options I asked about in this thread) is the Sightron S-TAC FFP 3-16x42 with the zero Stop. It's at the top of my budget, but I like the features and that it's made in the Philippines.

That's not a bad option . My experience with them are the Japanese made scopes not the PI made . But still it's made by them in their factory. CS in the states is in NC and you can actually call them if needed and they will take care of any problems unlike many of the so called companies that get their shit made in china for them.

TonyAngel · Nov 4, 2024

nevadany said:
Forgot to mention another one I was/am looking at (before I came across the 2 options I asked about in this thread) is the Sightron S-TAC FFP 3-16x42 with the zero Stop. It's at the top of my budget, but I like the features and that it's made in the Philippines.

There was a time when Sightron was much more popular in the precision shooting arena. I'd imagine that they aren't as popular now, due to the influx of less expensive options from China. In any case, sightron would be a solid option provided that they have a reticle you like.

If youre considering going down that road, maybe also consider the offerings in the Meopta Optika 5 and Optika 6 lines.

Still, remember, glass quality is only a part of what you need to be considering for longer ranges. You need to make sure that whatever you consider can get the job done. What i mean by that is you're gonna need to determine how much elevation you're going to need to be able to dial and how well the scope behaves at its maximum limits of dialing. Some scopes exhibit really wonky behavior when you get close to their limits.

nevadany · Nov 4, 2024

I'm intrigued by meopta and I've looked at them before, but haven't for this purpose. Unfortunately, it looks like the 5 isn't quite what I'm after, and the 6 is above my price point.

.

As I mentioned before, and has also been suggested by some, I'm going to rock the Burris E1 for now. I'm not buying anything until after the holidays anyway...

For the moment, I'm leaning towards the SWFA and the Sightron.

Rob01 · Nov 4, 2024

Not sure why you are infatuated with the fixed power SWFA but they are nothing special. Would be way down the bottom of any list I was looking to make. I had one over 20 years ago and it was ok then. Now with the options it's not even worth considering but most any fixed power is also not worth considering.

nevadany · Nov 4, 2024

Maybe it's the draw of whacking steel with old tech.... IDK...why does it matter?

It checks pretty much all of my boxes, and it's an affordable, solid option.

Rob01 · Nov 4, 2024

nevadany said:
Maybe it's the draw of whacking steel with old tech.... IDK...why does it matter?

It checks pretty much all of my boxes, and it's an affordable, solid option.

Doesn't to me as it's not my money but I am also not the one asking the questions. Whacking steel with old tech is cool until you need new tech.

FuhQ · Nov 4, 2024

Rob01 said:
Whacking steel with old tech is cool until you need new tech.

True statement right there...

Cr1775 · Nov 4, 2024

Ran a FDN FX10 last year out to 600 cant say it held me back any, doesn't make me want to get a fixed 10 either.

nevadany · Nov 4, 2024

Rob01 said:
Doesn't to me as it's not my money but I am also not the one asking the questions. Whacking steel with old tech is cool until you need new tech.

I agree and you are 100% correct in that...

...this is for shits and giggles though. I mean c'mon I'm using a BCA upper for Christ's sake

FuhQ · Nov 4, 2024

nevadany said:
I agree and you are 100% correct in that...

...this is for shits and giggles though. I mean c'mon I'm using a BCA upper for Christ's sake

I don't know if I'd admit that one out loud...

nevadany · Nov 4, 2024

For the record, I haven't made up my mind on what I want yet... I've got plenty of time... I want to let the sting of the second semester ivy League school fade a little first

nevadany · Nov 4, 2024

FuhQ said:
I don't know if I'd admit that one out loud...

It is a little embarrassing

db2000 · Nov 4, 2024

The other thing I should’ve mentioned is resale. SWFA aren’t reselling easily. A $400 Arken EP5 in the PX will. You’ll lose $20 to ship it. Look at the sale history. They’ve been bringing approximately $400 for a long time in the PX…despite the release of Arken and DNT 7-35 scopes for $600.

TonyAngel · Nov 5, 2024

nevadany said:
Maybe it's the draw of whacking steel with old tech.... IDK...why does it matter?

It checks pretty much all of my boxes, and it's an affordable, solid option.

Man, i used to run a fixed 10x swfa, but that was back when it was all the rage (gotta be more than 20 years ago), when everyone thought that 1x for every 100 yards was enough.

Youre saying that the swfa checks all of your boxes. What boxes are those? The turrets track just ok. I think the turrets on an Arken track better. There is no zero stop and at 5 mils per rev you could easily get lost on the dial leaving you to figure out where your zero is. The turrets don't lock. With a fixed 10x, you gonna find that the magnification is too much for most situations and not enough for others. By today's standards, the reticle in the swfa sucks.

I can sort of understand wanting to do it old school for the fun of it, but I don't see the fun in shooting yourself in the foot before a race either.

nevadany · Nov 5, 2024

I'm intrigued by them...I don't doubt that you are correct, but my level and your level are most definitely different...with the nod your way. I started looking around to see if I can find a reasonably priced, used SWFA 10 or 12x to mess around with. If I can find one, I'll get that for now and likely still get the Sightron after the holidays.

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