Almost no neck tension on new brass?

B

Basic user

Private
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Oct 11, 2013
    493
    137
    #1
    Ran into something odd a few days ago with some new Alpha 6.5cm brass. Grabbed some virgin cases to start loading for a new gun, and wasn't happy with the .262 expander ball in my Forster sizing die; I could feel not a whole lot of resistance (there was some, but not what I was wanting) when seating the bullets in my inline die/arbor press combination. (I'm using the K&M press that has a short arm).
    So I took the expander stem out of the die, chucked it up in my drill and polished on it a little to get it to .260 for a little more neck tension. Seated a few more rounds and NOTHING. ZERO difference in seating feel. How??
    I was soo shocked I sized a case with NO expander ball in it, and seated a bullet in it after doing that and there was same neck tension, which is very little. I am so confused I have no idea what is going on. Could this be because the cases are brand new? Could it be bad brass? I'm guessing a lot of springback? Why dont my already loaded rounds from 2 weeks ago have this? When I try to pull a bullet out of my previously loaded cases it's really hard, and now all of a sudden they pull out really easy. I measured the od of these new bullets and they're the same as the old ones I loaded a while ago. Why I'm so confused is because this is a new anomaly for me. I've been loading rounds like this for a year now, and when I move to progressively smaller expander balls the amount of force needed to seat the bullets goes up. And now, all of a sudden out of nowhere, nothing I do changes the super light neck tension I have now. Nothing I do changes the super easy seating force I now have when seating... I have four Forster dies in 6.5 creedmoor and theyre all the same.
    Have any of you experienced this?
     
    Last edited:
    #2
    It sounds your sizing die is roughy the same neck OD as your new brass. That’s all I can think of to cause what you’re seeing. You didn’t mention a bushing size so I’m assuming this just a regular sizing die.

    The die has to reduce the neck diameter down in order for you set the ID you want with the expander.
     
    #3
    I'm thinking the dies squeeze these necks down to .260 minimum (checked with neck gage pins) Now all of a sudden 4 thousandths neck tension feels like one lol. It's like these necks have a ton of springback and flex right back to the original od, or like the bullets are now all of a sudden slipperier than before.
     
    #5
    I have a Mighty Armory 308 Win. die that will not size the necks enough of any brass that you would need a .333" or less bushing. I have a bunch of old Winchester brass that needs a .331" bushing and some Hornady brass that needs a.333" bushing. That M/A die will not size the necks enough to get proper neck tension.

    My Federal brass, newer Hornady brass, and a few other brands that need a .335" or larger bushing will work fine in that M/A die.

    That same die wouldn't bump the case shoulders down to SAAMI minimum (1.630"). I had to send it back and had Wayne shave off .008" off the bottom of the die. It bumps fine now.

    I don't know if the O/P got some thinner brass that his dies won't neck down enough. Might be worth doing some precise neck measuring and maybe talking to Alpha.
     
    #8
    spife7980 said:
    As with every thread where people have issues: write down and share real measurements of the diameters fired vs sized vs seated. You’ll find your answer.
    Click to expand...
    Ok, with the virgin alpha, the neck walls are .1325 all the way around. .2905 neck OD with no bullet seated and I believe that's sized as small as she can go (no sizer ball inside) After I seat the bullet, neck OD's .2910. After I pull the bullet, which comes out super easy, neck ID is .2620.
    The old used starline case's neck ID after sizing it with no expander ball is just under .2585. (that pin barely doesn't go in the neck) And the bullet is still fairly easy to pull out, but not as easy as the virgin alpha.
    To me this is starting to look like the alpha brass has a shitload of springback, but for some reason I just dont remember all my other pieces of alpha brass doing this when I first started reloading them, or that situation would have caused me to react in this exact same manner back then.

    Every time I load a batch of ANY of my calibers (lapua and nosler in .308, alpha and lapua in 6.5cm, lapua in .223, and nosler in 6.5 grendel) I can switch to a smaller expander ball and get tighter neck tension as I can not only feel the differing resistance in the seating operation, but also when I seat one too deep, I can feel the resistance in the bullet puller die. These are different. No matter what I do, the bullets seat super easy, and they pull really easy. These will be for an AR, so I prefer a little more neck tension. I discovered this when I attempted to increase neck tension and failed, for some odd reason. Either this lot of berger bullets are just more slipperier than the last batch, or I'm guessing this batch of brass needs to be worked out so that there's less springback?
     
    #13
    Basic user said:
    Ok, with the virgin alpha, the neck walls are .1325 all the way around.
    Click to expand...
    That’s some thick ass brass.

    Assuming .0125-.0135 that either (.0125*2)+.264=.289 or (.0135*2)+.264=.291 loaded round diameter.

    The .291 matches your stated loaded round diameter so I assume the missing 0 and additional 2 were typos.

    What’s the sized outside neck diameter before seating? Also, what’s the sized neck diameter coming out of the die with no expander?
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: straightshooter1
    #14

    Attachments

    • neck od.jpg
      neck od.jpg
      85.2 KB · Views: 25
    #15
    spife7980 said:
    That’s some thick ass brass.

    Assuming .0125-.0135 that either (.0125*2)+.264=.289 or (.0135*2)+.264=.291 loaded round diameter.

    The .291 matches your stated loaded round diameter so I assume the missing 0 and additional 2 were typos.

    What’s the sized outside neck diameter before seating? Also, what’s the sized neck diameter coming out of the die with no expander?
    Click to expand...
    Neck od before seating is .290". And the sized neck diameter with no expander? Which, ID or OD? ID's .2585" Why I'm so baffled is the difference between this and 262 is pretty decent, but the bullets press in SUPER easy, and pull out super easy too. Can't do it by hand, but on the bullet puller (hornady die with the red lever) it's REALLY easy. Too easy for my liking.
     
    #17
    Basic user said:
    Neck od before seating is .290". And the sized neck diameter with no expander? Which, ID or OD? ID's .2585" Why I'm so baffled is the difference between this and 262 is pretty decent, but the bullets press in SUPER easy, and pull out super easy too. Can't do it by hand, but on the bullet puller (hornady die with the red lever) it's REALLY easy. Too easy for my liking.
    Click to expand...
    If you can’t do it by hand then it’s fine. That’s .001 of neck tension, it’s not a lot but it sounds sufficient.
     
    #18
    Basic user said:
    Ok, with the virgin alpha, the neck walls are .1325 all the way around. .2905 neck OD with no bullet seated and I believe that's sized as small as she can go (no sizer ball inside) After I seat the bullet, neck OD's .2910. After I pull the bullet, which comes out super easy, neck ID is .2620.
    The old used starline case's neck ID after sizing it with no expander ball is just under .2585. (that pin barely doesn't go in the neck) And the bullet is still fairly easy to pull out, but not as easy as the virgin alpha.
    To me this is starting to look like the alpha brass has a shitload of springback, but for some reason I just dont remember all my other pieces of alpha brass doing this when I first started reloading them, or that situation would have caused me to react in this exact same manner back then.

    Every time I load a batch of ANY of my calibers (lapua and nosler in .308, alpha and lapua in 6.5cm, lapua in .223, and nosler in 6.5 grendel) I can switch to a smaller expander ball and get tighter neck tension as I can not only feel the differing resistance in the seating operation, but also when I seat one too deep, I can feel the resistance in the bullet puller die. These are different. No matter what I do, the bullets seat super easy, and they pull really easy. These will be for an AR, so I prefer a little more neck tension. I discovered this when I attempted to increase neck tension and failed, for some odd reason. Either this lot of berger bullets are just more slipperier than the last batch, or I'm guessing this batch of brass needs to be worked out so that there's less springback?
    Click to expand...

    Are you telling us that the sizing die (non-bushing) is only capable of getting the outside diameter of the case to .2905”? Did you order that die custom ground? A sizing die that hasn’t had any custom work to it, even a benchrest one, should reduce neck outside diameter to at least the smallest possible chamber neck diameter of the SAAMI spec.
     
    #19
    OREGUN said:
    Are you telling us that the sizing die (non-bushing) is only capable of getting the outside diameter of the case to .2905”? Did you order that die custom ground? A sizing die that hasn’t had any custom work to it, even a benchrest one, should reduce neck outside diameter to at least the smallest possible chamber neck diameter of the SAAMI spec.
    Click to expand...
    This was a factory die. Though I did order custom sizing balls down to .260 for experimenting with neck tension. (i usually load my rounds to a little more neck tension for my 308/6.5 ar's than I do my bolt rifles.) and forster was happy to make them and send them; but if combined with springback, those balls end up being useless, wouldnt they understand that before making them?
    What's confusing me is this was never a problem until now. The only thing I can think of is that this batch of brass has a shitload of springback more than the rest. I only anneal every say 4 firings. Is it just that this batch has to be worked more to get rid of some of that springback?
     
    #21
    Basic user said:
    This was a factory die. Though I did order custom sizing balls down to .260 for experimenting with neck tension. (i usually load my rounds to a little more neck tension for my 308/6.5 ar's than I do my bolt rifles.) and forster was happy to make them and send them; but if combined with springback, those balls end up being useless, wouldnt they understand that before making them?
    What's confusing me is this was never a problem until now. The only thing I can think of is that this batch of brass has a shitload of springback more than the rest. I only anneal every say 4 firings. Is it just that this batch has to be worked more to get rid of some of that springback?
    Click to expand...

    You have it backwards. The more you work the brass, the harder it becomes, the more springback you get.
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.

    Similar threads

    U
    Neck size clarification
    Replies
    15
    Views
    442
    straightshooter1
    straightshooter1
    J
    Rough Rust-like finish inside alpha brass necks
    Replies
    27
    Views
    454
    Dolomite
    D
    L
    New Lapua Brass - Neck Tension
    Replies
    15
    Views
    267
    Lawnboi
    L
    M
    Used Too Small a Bushing & Neck is Undersize
    Replies
    8
    Views
    309
    sirhrmechanic
    sirhrmechanic
    U
    Different neck tension and seating depth from round to round
    Replies
    18
    Views
    691
    ma smith
    ma smith
    Top Bottom
    Back
    Home
    Forums
    Merch
    Alerts