Almost no neck tension on new brass?

Basic user · Nov 29, 2024

Ran into something odd a few days ago with some new Alpha 6.5cm brass. Grabbed some virgin cases to start loading for a new gun, and wasn't happy with the .262 expander ball in my Forster sizing die; I could feel not a whole lot of resistance (there was some, but not what I was wanting) when seating the bullets in my inline die/arbor press combination. (I'm using the K&M press that has a short arm).
So I took the expander stem out of the die, chucked it up in my drill and polished on it a little to get it to .260 for a little more neck tension. Seated a few more rounds and NOTHING. ZERO difference in seating feel. How??
I was soo shocked I sized a case with NO expander ball in it, and seated a bullet in it after doing that and there was same neck tension, which is very little. I am so confused I have no idea what is going on. Could this be because the cases are brand new? Could it be bad brass? I'm guessing a lot of springback? Why dont my already loaded rounds from 2 weeks ago have this? When I try to pull a bullet out of my previously loaded cases it's really hard, and now all of a sudden they pull out really easy. I measured the od of these new bullets and they're the same as the old ones I loaded a while ago. Why I'm so confused is because this is a new anomaly for me. I've been loading rounds like this for a year now, and when I move to progressively smaller expander balls the amount of force needed to seat the bullets goes up. And now, all of a sudden out of nowhere, nothing I do changes the super light neck tension I have now. Nothing I do changes the super easy seating force I now have when seating... I have four Forster dies in 6.5 creedmoor and theyre all the same.
Have any of you experienced this?

skatz11 · Nov 29, 2024

It sounds your sizing die is roughy the same neck OD as your new brass. That’s all I can think of to cause what you’re seeing. You didn’t mention a bushing size so I’m assuming this just a regular sizing die.

The die has to reduce the neck diameter down in order for you set the ID you want with the expander.

Basic user · Nov 29, 2024

I'm thinking the dies squeeze these necks down to .260 minimum (checked with neck gage pins) Now all of a sudden 4 thousandths neck tension feels like one lol. It's like these necks have a ton of springback and flex right back to the original od, or like the bullets are now all of a sudden slipperier than before.

AllenOne1 · Nov 29, 2024

Sounds like you are running a bushing die with no bushing in it.

Measure the neck OD of the new brass, size it, measure neck OD, mandrel the brass, measure neck OD, seat a bullet, measure neck OD. Report those measurements back.

FLIGHT762 · Nov 29, 2024

I have a Mighty Armory 308 Win. die that will not size the necks enough of any brass that you would need a .333" or less bushing. I have a bunch of old Winchester brass that needs a .331" bushing and some Hornady brass that needs a.333" bushing. That M/A die will not size the necks enough to get proper neck tension.

My Federal brass, newer Hornady brass, and a few other brands that need a .335" or larger bushing will work fine in that M/A die.

That same die wouldn't bump the case shoulders down to SAAMI minimum (1.630"). I had to send it back and had Wayne shave off .008" off the bottom of the die. It bumps fine now.

I don't know if the O/P got some thinner brass that his dies won't neck down enough. Might be worth doing some precise neck measuring and maybe talking to Alpha.

spife7980 · Nov 29, 2024

As with every thread where people have issues: write down and share real measurements of the diameters fired vs sized vs seated. You’ll find your answer.

918v · Nov 29, 2024

Which Forster die do you have? The standard FL die should have a .284” neck. That should give you plenty of neck tension.

Basic user · Nov 30, 2024

spife7980 said:
As with every thread where people have issues: write down and share real measurements of the diameters fired vs sized vs seated. You’ll find your answer.

Ok, with the virgin alpha, the neck walls are .1325 all the way around. .2905 neck OD with no bullet seated and I believe that's sized as small as she can go (no sizer ball inside) After I seat the bullet, neck OD's .2910. After I pull the bullet, which comes out super easy, neck ID is .2620.
The old used starline case's neck ID after sizing it with no expander ball is just under .2585. (that pin barely doesn't go in the neck) And the bullet is still fairly easy to pull out, but not as easy as the virgin alpha.
To me this is starting to look like the alpha brass has a shitload of springback, but for some reason I just dont remember all my other pieces of alpha brass doing this when I first started reloading them, or that situation would have caused me to react in this exact same manner back then.

Every time I load a batch of ANY of my calibers (lapua and nosler in .308, alpha and lapua in 6.5cm, lapua in .223, and nosler in 6.5 grendel) I can switch to a smaller expander ball and get tighter neck tension as I can not only feel the differing resistance in the seating operation, but also when I seat one too deep, I can feel the resistance in the bullet puller die. These are different. No matter what I do, the bullets seat super easy, and they pull really easy. These will be for an AR, so I prefer a little more neck tension. I discovered this when I attempted to increase neck tension and failed, for some odd reason. Either this lot of berger bullets are just more slipperier than the last batch, or I'm guessing this batch of brass needs to be worked out so that there's less springback?

918v · Nov 30, 2024

How are you lubing the inside of the neck?

Basic user · Nov 30, 2024

918v said:
Which Forster die do you have? The standard FL die should have a .284” neck. That should give you plenty of neck tension.

I have the non bushing full length benchrest sizer

Basic user · Nov 30, 2024

918v said:
How are you lubing the inside of the neck?

Graphite dry lube. Been doing that for the last 6 months or so. That has never affected any of this in the past though.

918v · Nov 30, 2024

Basic user said:
I have the non bushing full length benchrest sizer

And it sizes necks to .290” od?

spife7980 · Nov 30, 2024

Basic user said:
Ok, with the virgin alpha, the neck walls are .1325 all the way around.

That’s some thick ass brass.

Assuming .0125-.0135 that either (.0125*2)+.264=.289 or (.0135*2)+.264=.291 loaded round diameter.

The .291 matches your stated loaded round diameter so I assume the missing 0 and additional 2 were typos.

What’s the sized outside neck diameter before seating? Also, what’s the sized neck diameter coming out of the die with no expander?

Basic user · Dec 1, 2024

918v said:
And it sizes necks to .290” od?

Basic user · Dec 1, 2024

spife7980 said:
That’s some thick ass brass.

Assuming .0125-.0135 that either (.0125*2)+.264=.289 or (.0135*2)+.264=.291 loaded round diameter.

The .291 matches your stated loaded round diameter so I assume the missing 0 and additional 2 were typos.

What’s the sized outside neck diameter before seating? Also, what’s the sized neck diameter coming out of the die with no expander?

Neck od before seating is .290". And the sized neck diameter with no expander? Which, ID or OD? ID's .2585" Why I'm so baffled is the difference between this and 262 is pretty decent, but the bullets press in SUPER easy, and pull out super easy too. Can't do it by hand, but on the bullet puller (hornady die with the red lever) it's REALLY easy. Too easy for my liking.

918v · Dec 1, 2024

If your Forster standard FL die is sizing necks to .290” then it’s defective and needs to be returned.

spife7980 · Dec 1, 2024

Basic user said:
Neck od before seating is .290". And the sized neck diameter with no expander? Which, ID or OD? ID's .2585" Why I'm so baffled is the difference between this and 262 is pretty decent, but the bullets press in SUPER easy, and pull out super easy too. Can't do it by hand, but on the bullet puller (hornady die with the red lever) it's REALLY easy. Too easy for my liking.

If you can’t do it by hand then it’s fine. That’s .001 of neck tension, it’s not a lot but it sounds sufficient.

OREGUN · Dec 1, 2024

Basic user said:
Ok, with the virgin alpha, the neck walls are .1325 all the way around. .2905 neck OD with no bullet seated and I believe that's sized as small as she can go (no sizer ball inside) After I seat the bullet, neck OD's .2910. After I pull the bullet, which comes out super easy, neck ID is .2620.
The old used starline case's neck ID after sizing it with no expander ball is just under .2585. (that pin barely doesn't go in the neck) And the bullet is still fairly easy to pull out, but not as easy as the virgin alpha.
To me this is starting to look like the alpha brass has a shitload of springback, but for some reason I just dont remember all my other pieces of alpha brass doing this when I first started reloading them, or that situation would have caused me to react in this exact same manner back then.

Every time I load a batch of ANY of my calibers (lapua and nosler in .308, alpha and lapua in 6.5cm, lapua in .223, and nosler in 6.5 grendel) I can switch to a smaller expander ball and get tighter neck tension as I can not only feel the differing resistance in the seating operation, but also when I seat one too deep, I can feel the resistance in the bullet puller die. These are different. No matter what I do, the bullets seat super easy, and they pull really easy. These will be for an AR, so I prefer a little more neck tension. I discovered this when I attempted to increase neck tension and failed, for some odd reason. Either this lot of berger bullets are just more slipperier than the last batch, or I'm guessing this batch of brass needs to be worked out so that there's less springback?

Are you telling us that the sizing die (non-bushing) is only capable of getting the outside diameter of the case to .2905”? Did you order that die custom ground? A sizing die that hasn’t had any custom work to it, even a benchrest one, should reduce neck outside diameter to at least the smallest possible chamber neck diameter of the SAAMI spec.

Basic user · Dec 2, 2024

OREGUN said:
Are you telling us that the sizing die (non-bushing) is only capable of getting the outside diameter of the case to .2905”? Did you order that die custom ground? A sizing die that hasn’t had any custom work to it, even a benchrest one, should reduce neck outside diameter to at least the smallest possible chamber neck diameter of the SAAMI spec.

This was a factory die. Though I did order custom sizing balls down to .260 for experimenting with neck tension. (i usually load my rounds to a little more neck tension for my 308/6.5 ar's than I do my bolt rifles.) and forster was happy to make them and send them; but if combined with springback, those balls end up being useless, wouldnt they understand that before making them?
What's confusing me is this was never a problem until now. The only thing I can think of is that this batch of brass has a shitload of springback more than the rest. I only anneal every say 4 firings. Is it just that this batch has to be worked more to get rid of some of that springback?

OREGUN · Dec 2, 2024

What’s the OD of a new piece right out of the box?

918v · Dec 2, 2024

Basic user said:
This was a factory die. Though I did order custom sizing balls down to .260 for experimenting with neck tension. (i usually load my rounds to a little more neck tension for my 308/6.5 ar's than I do my bolt rifles.) and forster was happy to make them and send them; but if combined with springback, those balls end up being useless, wouldnt they understand that before making them?
What's confusing me is this was never a problem until now. The only thing I can think of is that this batch of brass has a shitload of springback more than the rest. I only anneal every say 4 firings. Is it just that this batch has to be worked more to get rid of some of that springback?

You have it backwards. The more you work the brass, the harder it becomes, the more springback you get.

918v · Dec 2, 2024

The other thing I’m thinking is that your brass is too soft and cannot hold on to the bullet very well hence they are easy to seat and pull out.

Basic user · Dec 4, 2024

918v said:
You have it backwards. The more you work the brass, the harder it becomes, the more springback you get.

Gotcha

Basic user · Dec 4, 2024

OREGUN said:
What’s the OD of a new piece right out of the box?

Out of state. Will get it shortly though.

Having trouble using the site?

Almost no neck tension on new brass?

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