Which do you prefer in competition - holdovers or adjusting turrets?

CybrSlydr · Nov 29, 2024

Curious what you folks do in competitions - when you have your dope, do you adjust your turrets for each target or do you prefer to use holdovers?

I didn't pay attention at the last competition to what my group did - I did holdovers as it seemed quicker and I have a reticle that will account for it.

Unless I was really familiar with my optic and adjusting, I think holdovers would be easier/quicker than worrying about going a click or 3 too far. I was surprised just how quickly those two minutes go by when you're looking for the targets.

The4GunGuy · Nov 29, 2024

The answer is "it depends". I just did a video on holding over and I'll post it here (). But, IF you have time to dial, I dial. If the stage is a fast stage, then I'll hold. You also have to consider the reticle you have and is it a tree type reticle that allows you to manage windage during hold over? In the video, I talk about that. Practice both so you can be prepared as stage needs come up, and remember that once in a while, the MD will stipulate that you cannot touch your turrets on a stage.

The4GunGuy · Nov 29, 2024

And here's an example of when you don't remember to hold over!! Dropped 2 shots on this practice session.

Ruff 364 · Nov 29, 2024

Depends on time, number of targets, difficulty of shot etc. I'll dial if I can, hold if time is tight.

Matt_3479 · Nov 29, 2024

I always dial until the stage specified no dialing which happens roughly once a year. I do practice hold overs for that reason but I always dial otherwise.

Downzero · Nov 29, 2024

I strongly prefer dialing but holdovers are faster and I really ought to practice it more.

lte82 · Nov 29, 2024

I dial when: The target distances are substantially different, requiring a large change in elevation and windage (like 500 & 1000). The targets are very small, and require a high level of precision. Any stage where time isn't an issue. Any time I grossly miss the wind call on the first shot and don't want to have a huge hold off the rest of the stage.

I hold when: Time may be an issue, targets are large enough to be a bit sloppy, and all targets are similar enough in distance to not require large changes in elevation or windage (think targets that are all between 400-500 yards). I'll also hold off when I miss the wind call by a small amount and/or the wind is having pick up up and let offs, or switches.

Dialing can be less of a time cost than you think too. While there is more time on the front end to dial, I find that I get my sight picture faster which gives me a some of that time back. Dialing can even be quicker than holding if you have a huge distance gap between targets, because it's easier to dial and shoot to the center of your crosshairs vs searching for that perfect 5.3 mil elevation and 0.8 mil hold on the tree. Sometimes a good compromise is to just dial the extra elevation and hold the wind so you're only dealing with one variable.

You can also experiment with hold unders too, which works well for two targets in the 1-2 mil range elevation difference. Say 400-500 or 400-600. Dial the wind for the short target and elevation for the far target. Shoot the far target with just a wind hold off, then shoot the short target with zero wind hold but holding under the amount you need.

Rob01 · Nov 29, 2024

Depends on the stage. You should be able to do both without issue so you can do the one you need when needed.

JustSendit · Nov 29, 2024

I’d practice both but for PRS you’ll end up dialing because there’s time to do so and it’s all known distances. Personally I dial a lot at PRS and rarely for field matches.

Gentleman4561 · Nov 29, 2024

I use to be a heavy dialing guy, but now that I am running a weapon mounted laser range finder I almost never dial. Last match I shot I didn’t touch my elevation over the course of 14 stages.

I tend to shoot more field type matches though, so probably larger targets vs what is commonly seen in barricade bench rest.

Bgriff008 · Nov 29, 2024

My issue with hold overs is the numbers on the reticle are so small I can’t read them. Also they are black and blend in with the backgrounds we shoot. My eyes are shot. Sure I can zoom in to make them bigger but then I lose my acquisition view for the next target. It’s actually quite frustrating. My scope reticle does light up but not bright enough in the day light. Not sure if they make better scopes that are brighter or not.

Rob01 · Nov 29, 2024

They do make scopes where the illumination is daylight bright. I use my illumination a lot at matches.

Bgriff008 · Nov 29, 2024

Rob01 said:
They do make scopes where the illumination is daylight bright. I use my illumination a lot at matches.

Any suggestions? I currently run a vortex viper 5-25x50.

Rob01 · Nov 29, 2024

Bgriff008 said:
Any suggestions? I currently run a vortex viper 5-25x50.

What’s your price range?

Rippey715 · Nov 29, 2024

Dial all the things. Holdovers are the fastest way to miss.

Bgriff008 · Nov 29, 2024

lol. That’s the dying question. Don’t really want to go higher than 2k. Not sure that will get me what I really need.

Rob01 · Nov 29, 2024

Rippey715 said:
Dial all the things. Holdovers are the fastest way to miss.

Only if you don’t practice it. Lol

Rob01 · Nov 29, 2024

Bgriff008 said:
lol. That’s the dying question. Don’t really want to go higher than 2k. Not sure that will get me what I really need.

It’s the most important question lol. Under $2K there are a lot of good options like the Tract Toric ELR 4-25, Burris Pro, the Zeiss S3 only illuminates the center mil but the reticle is dark and easy to see even against dark targets. Under a grand the Bushnell Match Pro ED is a good choice too.

stanley_white · Nov 30, 2024

Rob01 said:
It’s the most important question lol. Under $2K there are a lot of good options like the Tract Toric ELR 4-25, Burris Pro, the Zeiss S3 only illuminates the center mil but the reticle is dark and easy to see even against dark targets. Under a grand the Bushnell Match Pro ED is a good choice too.

Tract had 20% off one of their scopes for Black Friday @Bgriff008.

-Stan

Oldloser · Nov 30, 2024

Depends on the size of the targets, distance, positions, order of fire, and the amount of time.

Ten ipsec targets in 30 seconds is a holdup and over.

Five 1 moa targets and five positions in two minutes and it’s Sam on the dial time.

In general, targets smaller than 2 MOA at 500 and out get dialed.

It’s still not an excuse to not take your time and be precise. 8 solid presses and seeing all those shots on a ten shot stage are better than ten sloppy ones and having no idea what happened.

Oldloser · Nov 30, 2024

Rob01 said:
Only if you don’t practice it. Lol

yep, you have to prime your eyes to go for that holdup and over rather than the center dot.

Rob01 · Nov 30, 2024

Dead Eye Dick said:
As hard as my hits are to come by in centerfire I always dial. Last year, I through away four easy targets by forgetting that I was using holdovers and held on the crosshair. This year it has been recommended to me to that I really should be using holdovers to save time. I practice it occasionally but

At my age, hits on targets are so hard to come by, I’d rather hit four of four shots taken then two hits on six or seven shots taken.

However, if the targets are close in range, it’s easy to remember that 0.1 mil is something like a third of an inch. So, I’ll dial for the first and hold for then next.

If you are thinking in inches you already lost.

And forgetting to hold is a problem with stage prep and not holding. You need to have your card say hold to remind you. Dial the first yardage and then right down the holds for the rest.

308pirate · Nov 30, 2024

Rob01 said:
If you are thinking in inches you already lost

It boggles the mind

308pirate · Nov 30, 2024

Dead Eye Dick said:
if the targets are close in range, it’s easy to remember that 0.1 mil is something like a third of an inch

Whhhhhhhyyyyyy??????

308pirate · Nov 30, 2024

Dead Eye Dick said:
Let me make it clearer, if the range of two or more separate targets is fairly close together , such as today, when I was shooting a 340 yard silhouette and a 375 yard 10in square, I would use a hold rather than dial. keeping in mind that a milrad is 3.6 inches at 100 yards so a tenth of that would be roughly a 1/3 of an inch at 100 yards. So, at three hundred yards that would be roughtly an inch difference.

Does this make more sense?

Absolutely not.

You're still doing it wrong. I can see now why you run out of time.

I only operate from dope 100% in mils. I never, EVER, consider linear measurements in shooting except range to target.

Rob01 · Nov 30, 2024

Dead Eye Dick said:
Let me make it clearer, if the range of two or more separate targets is fairly close together , such as today, when I was shooting a 350 yard silhouette (they took down the 8 inch circle ) and a 375 yard 10in square, I would use a hold rather than dial. So, at three hundred yards that would be roughtly an inch difference. @Rob01 not thinking in inches, jsut trying to explain how miniscule a tenth of a mil is, in this case at roughly 300 yards. Or, if the numbers are very even, again today, shooting a 22lr, at 100 yards with a hold of 1.5 mils, and a 150 yard target with a hold of 4.5, its easy to dial for the 150 and hold three mils over (1.5 + 3 - 4.5) rather than dial.

However with distances between consecutive targets being more than 100 yards, I dial in centerfire. And rarely don’t dial in .22lr.

Does this make more sense?

It’s been a long weekend.

And to make ti clear to everyone, I didn’t know anyone ever even used inches anymore in PRS I always think in MILs, every scope I shoot is in MILS except my hunting rifle and being a fairly flat shooting .25-06, and I limit my shots to point blank range. Once I get it hitting the target dot at 200 yards, I never touch it. (Same with the Whelen.

Why does it matter if they are even or close? The numbers in the reticle are the same as the numbers on the dial. You are overthinking it.

Dead Eye Dick · Nov 30, 2024

308pirate said:
Absolutely not.

You're still doing it wrong. I can see now why you run out of time.

I only operate from dope 100% in mils. I never, EVER, consider linear measurements in shooting except range to target.

I deleted the blasted post(s) ,. So let it die, I dial targets That’s what I do, I move so slowly if the riflescope automatically ranged and dialed the distance I would still time out. I’m 20 years past being competitive, I’ve won my championships, Now it’s just for fun.

I Dial IN MILRADS,

Bgriff008 · Dec 1, 2024

stanley_white said:
Tract had 20% off one of their scopes for Black Friday @Bgriff008.

-Stan

View attachment 8557344

Is this size a bit much for PRS? I don’t know. I’m not very good with knowing scope sizes needed. I only threw on the viper because that was provided at the time. But I wear readers so when zoomed out I can’t really see much of the reticle. So yea I want something red and bright which the Tract scopes offer.

stanley_white · Dec 1, 2024

Bgriff008 said:
Is this size a bit much for PRS? I don’t know. I’m not very good with knowing scope sizes needed. I only threw on the viper because that was provided at the time. But I wear readers so when zoomed out I can’t really see much of the reticle. So yea I want something red and bright which the Tract scopes offer.

With many PRS competitors using 6-36 I think the Tract will work.

I do not know if it is daytime bright.

If you aren’t in a hurry, I would do more research / get behind other people’s scopes at a match and see what works for your eyes.

-Stan

Bgriff008 · Dec 1, 2024

stanley_white said:
With many PRS competitors using 6-36 I think the Tract will work.

I do not know if it is daytime bright.

If you aren’t in a hurry, I would do more research / get behind other people’s scopes at a match and see what works for your eyes.

-Stan

Yea no hurry but hate to miss a Black Friday deal. lol

Bgriff008 · Dec 1, 2024

Rob01 said:
It’s the most important question lol. Under $2K there are a lot of good options like the Tract Toric ELR 4-25, Burris Pro, the Zeiss S3 only illuminates the center mil but the reticle is dark and easy to see even against dark targets. Under a grand the Bushnell Match Pro ED is a good choice too.

Thanks. For the Tract Toric their website shows the reticle tree in red. I’m assuming it’s always red and not because you can turn it on. So it wouldn’t be black when off. The description on their site doesn’t really mention anything. The pic shows the tree is red. That would be perfect for me. I just hate a black tree. Too hard to see on the backgrounds we shoot, unless I’m zoomed in.

Rob01 · Dec 1, 2024

Bgriff008 said:
Thanks. For the Tract Toric their website shows the reticle tree in red. I’m assuming it’s always red and not because you can turn it on. So it wouldn’t be black when off. The description on their site doesn’t really mention anything. The pic shows the tree is red. That would be perfect for me. I just hate a black tree. Too hard to see on the backgrounds we shoot, unless I’m zoomed in.

No it is illumination that is turned on and the reticle is black when it’s off. Don’t know if any reticle that is red all the time. What power are you using the scope on that you can’t see the reticle?

DeathBeforeDismount · Dec 2, 2024

I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who competes that it's always preferable to dial when you can/have time. You are introducing less variables and error into the process as well as less risk of burning one of the side due to can't, which will be magnified the more you hold over (or under). The only time I held over for the majority of a match was when my turret broke and I couldn't dial.

jthor · Dec 2, 2024

Both. You need to be proficient in both. I dial wind when ever time allows, preferably. At very minimum I’ll dial wind for the first target. There’s absolutely no reason to not dial on a troopline stage. Dialing always gives more confidence, if you dialed X value, that’s what was sent down range. You can get lost in the sauce sometimes with hold overs “was that .4 or .6 I just held?”. It also mentally feels better to hold center. But again, being confident in being able to do both is necessary.

It’s very dependent on the stage which is why I say, be proficient in both.

Rippey715 · Dec 7, 2024

Just to add another thought about stage planning for dialing vs holding. Mindset is important for your stage execution. What I mean here is that if you start with a mindset that you wont have enough time and you need to use hold overs this can bleed over into rushing your position building, NPA, breaking a clean shot. When I hear about a stage where most are timing out or shooters start talking about having to hold over or time out, my mindset sticks with dialing and taking my time to make the best shots possible. I'll set my goal at 8 impacts instead of rushing to get through the 10 round stage. Granted this will not beat a pro shooter on the stage, but if half the shooters are rushing the stage they will probably be dropping shots they normally would have hit without the time stress. LIke running the barricade. I take my time and clean it instead of rush and drop one. Just another idea about how to shoot a stage. Hopefully this makes sense.

Pete B · Dec 7, 2024

Rippey715 said:
Just to add another thought about stage planning for dialing vs holding. Mindset is important for your stage execution. What I mean here is that if you start with a mindset that you wont have enough time and you need to use hold overs this can bleed over into rushing your position building, NPA, breaking a clean shot. When I hear about a stage where most are timing out or shooters start talking about having to hold over or time out, my mindset sticks with dialing and taking my time to make the best shots possible. I'll set my goal at 8 impacts instead of rushing to get through the 10 round stage. Granted this will not beat a pro shooter on the stage, but if half the shooters are rushing the stage they will probably be dropping shots they normally would have hit without the time stress. LIke running the barricade. I take my time and clean it instead of rush and drop one. Just another idea about how to shoot a stage. Hopefully this makes sense.

Yup..... The slowest 8, still beats the fastest 7

Rob01 · Dec 7, 2024

Rippey715 said:
Just to add another thought about stage planning for dialing vs holding. Mindset is important for your stage execution. What I mean here is that if you start with a mindset that you wont have enough time and you need to use hold overs this can bleed over into rushing your position building, NPA, breaking a clean shot. When I hear about a stage where most are timing out or shooters start talking about having to hold over or time out, my mindset sticks with dialing and taking my time to make the best shots possible. I'll set my goal at 8 impacts instead of rushing to get through the 10 round stage. Granted this will not beat a pro shooter on the stage, but if half the shooters are rushing the stage they will probably be dropping shots they normally would have hit without the time stress. LIke running the barricade. I take my time and clean it instead of rush and drop one. Just another idea about how to shoot a stage. Hopefully this makes sense.

Nope. Looking at a stage and figuring holds will be the best way does not bleed to rushing. It’s planning so you won’t have to rush and keep reaching up to turn the elevation knob. You will have more time holding and not have to rush. If you can’t hold accurately enough then you need to practice that skill.

Emerson0311 · Dec 7, 2024

Rob01 said:
Nope. Looking at a stage and figuring holds will be the best way does not bleed to rushing. It’s planning so you won’t have to rush and keep reaching up to turn the elevation knob. You will have more time holding and not have to rush. If you can’t hold accurately enough then you need to practice that skill.

I agree. Now, if the time limit is not really a challenge to a particular shooter, they can organize their workflow in all kinds of silly ways that work for them. For the rest of us, learning to prioritize the critical aspects and tools that decide our success in a particular task is very important. Not being able to hold over accurately is a skill problem. Being able to plod through each step without concern about time limits might mean the task is too easy to make it a challenge, like when a pro athlete goes home on vacation and runs up the score against his cousin’s beer league team.

giumau1 · Dec 8, 2024

Kiss approach. I Just hold on one direction. Usually dialing elevation and holding for wind. If no wind at all then it depends on how the number align in an easy sequencing or not.

Rob01 · Dec 8, 2024

giumau1 said:
Kiss approach. I Just hold on one direction. Usually dialing elevation and holding for wind. If no wind at all then it depends on how the number align in an easy sequencing or not.

So if the numbers don’t align in easy sequencing then you wouldn’t be able to dial it either. Dialing is the same as holding and if you are confused by the numbers than you can’t do it either way.

giumau1 · Dec 8, 2024

Rob01 said:
So if the numbers don’t align in easy sequencing then you wouldn’t be able to dial it either. Dialing is the same as holding and if you are confused by the numbers than you can’t do it either way.

Big fan of idts ballistic tape and colors marking here for elevation.

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