Hey fellas, not exactly a sniper rifle but looking for some M1 Garand help if you have the experience...

LuckyDuck · Dec 5, 2024

Over the past 2 years or so I acquired a couple of Garands from the CMP, all "expert grade". The one that I've been fooling around with is an IHC (depicted above) but I've been having some challenges getting it to feed properly.

I'm using newly manufactured enbloc clips that I purchased from ammogarand.com, and have used Garand specific factory ammunition to replicate the M2 ball ammunition from Federal, S&B, & Winchester and keep running into the same feeding problems.

The "expert grade" M1 Garand from the CMP is supposed to be pretty much gtg, new stock, new barrel, etc. but I've got to say this rifle is just giving me a world of issues to get it to feed properly and I don't think I've ever gotten a proper 'ping' from it yet after... 150-200 rounds by my estimate.

I've been trying to research this phenomenon and all of the suggestions seem to point to a weak ejector spring but as far as I can tell, the spring seems to be practically brand new and working properly.

The rifle is also properly greased (using Moblie 1 Synthetic in case anyone would care to ask) but I'm still not getting that desired ping/proper function from this particular rifle. So I'm reaching out to the experts here on how to get this warhorse back in the fight...

Could it be that all of the newly manufactured Enbloc clips are what's giving me fits or is there something incredibly basic/obvious that I'm just missing?

-LD

cplnorton · Dec 5, 2024

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you have more than one Garand? If so, I would try the enblocs in another M1 and see if they function fine.

The nice thing about having more than one M1, you can swap around or test parts and enblocs to try to figure out what the issue is.

If it's not the enblocs, I also think it's a spring issue and I would try swapping springs between the rifles and re-test.

Halfnutz · Dec 5, 2024

I built my own Expert Grade in Anniston at an Andvanced Maintenance Course. I can't remember all the nomenclature off the top of my head but we peeled a part to ensure the proper ejection. Call CMP Custom Shop and see if they can walk you through the troubleshooting and remedy.

Halfnutz · Dec 5, 2024

As I recall you need a "Timing Block". We peened a portion of the radiused nose on the bullet guide to lengthen it to get to function. I would call as stated above and see what they say.
Also look up a "Tilt Test" to check the op rod function.
Timing Block is available through Brownells for $40.

enichols · Dec 5, 2024

As mentioned, try some USGI clips and see if that remedies the issue.
I've had problems with newly manufactured enblocs in Garands similar to what you're experiencing. Switching to USGI enblocs alleviated those issues.

FlightRN · Dec 5, 2024

LuckyDuck said:
.... I'm using newly manufactured enbloc clips that I purchased from ammogarand.com, and have used Garand specific factory ammunition to replicate the M2 ball ammunition from Federal, S&B, & Winchester and keep running into the same feeding problems.

The "expert grade" M1 Garand from the CMP is supposed to be pretty much gtg, new stock, new barrel, etc. but I've got to say this rifle is just giving me a world of issues to get it to feed properly and I don't think I've ever gotten a proper 'ping' from it yet after... 150-200 rounds by my estimate.

I've been trying to research this phenomenon and all of the suggestions seem to point to a weak ejector spring but as far as I can tell, the spring seems to be practically brand new and working properly....

Could it be that all of the newly manufactured Enbloc clips are what's giving me fits or is there something incredibly basic/obvious that I'm just missing?

-LD

Good Day LD,
Please provide more details to the problem -
do you find loading the new mfg clips difficult?
Is the parked finish heavy?
is the forward gap narrower than used GI clips?
Are the loaded clips easily inserted?
Is the finish (parkerization) in the receiver clip well heavy (Pay attention to the inside clip guides on the receiver)?
Does the rifle pass the tilt test?
Does the op rod spring appear new production or GI?
are there marks inside the stock where metal parts in motion might be dragging on the wood?
Does the clip remain in the receiver at times or does it "fall" back when the last round is fired?
What do you consider proper ejection and what's your desired end state (this ID'S the "gap" between expectations vs. reality)?

A timing block might help but you have to look holistically at rifle and remember the CMP rifles are rebuilds with interface issues. One issue might not be a problem, but the cumulative effects of multiple, seemingly small, quirks can add up.

Regards,
Michael

sirhrmechanic · Dec 5, 2024

LuckyDuck · Dec 7, 2024

FlightRN said:
Good Day LD,
Please provide more details to the problem -
do you find loading the new mfg clips difficult?
Is the parked finish heavy?
is the forward gap narrower than used GI clips?
Are the loaded clips easily inserted?
Is the finish (parkerization) in the receiver clip well heavy (Pay attention to the inside clip guides on the receiver)?
Does the rifle pass the tilt test?
Does the op rod spring appear new production or GI?
are there marks inside the stock where metal parts in motion might be dragging on the wood?
Does the clip remain in the receiver at times or does it "fall" back when the last round is fired?
What do you consider proper ejection and what's your desired end state (this ID'S the "gap" between expectations vs. reality)?

A timing block might help but you have to look holistically at rifle and remember the CMP rifles are rebuilds with interface issues. One issue might not be a problem, but the cumulative effects of multiple, seemingly small, quirks can add up.

Regards,
Michael
View attachment 8561547

Goodness- sounds like you're my actual huckleberry here- to answer your questions though- I'm using newly manufactured enbloc clips- the best I've managed was similar to a toaster though where the clip doesn't fully eject anymore than "halfway" (hence popping up like a piece of toast).

I had a slight learning curve on how to load the En Bloc clips- I "think" I'm ok there. The rifle is "well" lubricated with Mobile 1 Synthetic Grease... the rifle also passed the op rod test that I found online- it just can't seem to "pop" the whole way through despite using S&B, Winchester, and Federal M1 Garand Ammunition.

To your question on proper ejection- I just want a proper 'ping' where the En Bloc clip shoots out over my right shoulder but I can't seem to get the ejection beyond a lame strudel/half butt ejection stuck in the receiver (hope that makes sense).

-LD

Skunk · Dec 7, 2024

LuckyDuck said:
To your question on proper ejection- I just want a proper 'ping' where the En Bloc clip SHOOTS OUT OVER MY RIGHT SHOULDER

LD, sorry to inform you of this, but a Garand, though awesome, is not Peter North. The clip isn’t going to get ejected in that manner. It’s not gonna go flying like a piece of brass. The best you can hope for is for the clip to pop up 4-6” out of the rifle, then fall down, bounce off the gun, and fall away.

I know that doesn’t help you diagnose a problem. I just think you may be on a wild goose chase for something you’re not going to achieve.

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

cplnorton said:
Unless I'm reading this wrong, you have more than one Garand? If so, I would try the enblocs in another M1 and see if they function fine.

The nice thing about having more than one M1, you can swap around or test parts and enblocs to try to figure out what the issue is.

If it's not the enblocs, I also think it's a spring issue and I would try swapping springs between the rifles and re-test.

That's correct, have several but only shot the one thus far. Pulling out another and shooting them side by side is what I was leaning towards as well and sounds like that may be my best option (at least for narrowing down variables)

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

Halfnutz said:
As I recall you need a "Timing Block". We peened a portion of the radiused nose on the bullet guide to lengthen it to get to function. I would call as stated above and see what they say.
Also look up a "Tilt Test" to check the op rod function.
Timing Block is available through Brownells for $40.

I'll look into the timing block, thins seem fine with the op rod/tilt test. Appreciate the help though!

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

FlightRN said:
Good Day LD,
Please provide more details to the problem -
do you find loading the new mfg clips difficult?
Is the parked finish heavy?
is the forward gap narrower than used GI clips?
Are the loaded clips easily inserted?
Is the finish (parkerization) in the receiver clip well heavy (Pay attention to the inside clip guides on the receiver)?
Does the rifle pass the tilt test?
Does the op rod spring appear new production or GI?
are there marks inside the stock where metal parts in motion might be dragging on the wood?
Does the clip remain in the receiver at times or does it "fall" back when the last round is fired?
What do you consider proper ejection and what's your desired end state (this ID'S the "gap" between expectations vs. reality)?

A timing block might help but you have to look holistically at rifle and remember the CMP rifles are rebuilds with interface issues. One issue might not be a problem, but the cumulative effects of multiple, seemingly small, quirks can add up.

Regards,
Michael
View attachment 8561547

Of course, happy to share some more details-

(1) Yes, I did find that loading the last round or two to be difficult. Truth be told- I attributed that to a lack of experience/technique rather than clip related (as it seemed to get easier as I loaded more) but when it comes to the Garand, I fully admit to being a complete rookie.

(2) It'd be difficult to say with my lack of experience but my unqualified opinion is that I'd think the parked finish to be a bit heavy. Now each of the Garands shipped with one En Bloc clip from the CMP but I will say that they also appear to be newly manufactured but also consistent with the 20 I ordered.

(3) Forward gap... sorry but I haven't been able to source any used GI clips to compare them so I couldn't give you an objective answer on that one.

(4) There's resistance for sure when inserting the clips but nothing that I'd consider to be outrageously obvious as wrong. Which basically is a way of saying I can insert them with just my thumb and am not hammering down on them to seat.

(5) Instructions unclear, please provide further guidance.

(6) I have researched the tilt test and while replicating what I've found online, I don't see anything that would indicate an issue there.

(7) Best I can tell (especially after having to clean them up) the op rod is GI . I can give you the date codes on it if that'd help but I'm fairly confident that it isn't newly manufactured.

(8) I've only put about 12 clips so about 100 rounds through it but can't say I notice anything dragging on the stock internally. For what it's worth, the stock IS newly manufactured since it is an expert grade (still haven't put any teak or linseed oil on it)

(9) I have NOT been able to get any of the clips to fully eject after the last round. Best illustration I can give is the closest I've come is it ejecting halfway (maybe a touch further) and sticking in the receiver like a piece of popped toast in your toaster. Apologies if that's an odd comparison but that's the best I can think of to describe it. (I've also had failures to feed about halfway through the clips... 4-5x through the approximately 12 clips I've run through it).

(10) My expectation for proper ejection would be for the En Bloc to fully clear/eject from the receiver and the bolt locking back consistently ready for the next clip to be loaded. As I mentioned, it's not so much that I feel I'm experiencing "weak" ejection but I'm not getting a clean ejection at all yet.

All good questions and before I forget to mention it- I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to dive into the issues I'm reporting. Hopefully my answers were thorough enjoy to be of some help.

-LD

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

Skunk said:
LD, sorry to inform you of this, but a Garand, though awesome, is not Peter North. The clip isn’t going to get ejected in that manner. It’s not gonna go flying like a piece of brass. The best you can hope for is for the clip to pop up 4-6” out of the rifle, then fall down, bounce off the gun, and fall away.

I know that doesn’t help you diagnose a problem. I just think you may be on a wild goose chase for something you’re not going to achieve.

Hah, that did make me laugh and I appreciate it and would say that's fair enough. It may be be more accurate to rephrase that statement that I expect the clip to eject cleanly and completely. 4-6" clearance would have me back to being a happy camper to be honest. I mentioned in my previous post though that I couldn't get it to eject more than halfway, looking like a piece of toast in your toaster.

-LD

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

My apologies gentlemen-

There is ONE other thing I've done that I failed to test yet but the op rod springs were pretty gnarly (ie coated in surface rust) when I received them from the CMP and since my last outing, I did replace them all with brand new Orion 7 op rod springs (the high power shooters seemed to highly favor that brand over Wolff by a wide margin). I thought that 'may' be of some help in this problem but as mentioned, I haven't had a chance to get them out to the range to experiment with the new spring to see if that made a difference.

Apologies for not mentioning making that change/not testing it, but truth be told, I forgot I had done so until this discussion. So any input in if that was a wise investment would also be appreciated. From studying how the Garand worked, it seemed that the op rod springs is essentially the "engine" that drives the action so that's why I started there.

-LD

FlightRN · Dec 8, 2024

LuckyDuck said:
.....the best I've managed was similar to a toaster though where the clip doesn't fully eject anymore than "halfway" (hence popping up like a piece of toast)....

Good Day LD,
Thank you for the expansion on the enbloc clip you're experiencing.

If understand you correctly, after the last round, the enbloc attempts to eject, but doesn't have enough momentum to clear the receiver and falls back and rests [empty] on the clip ejector spring.

I posit two possibilities:
1. When the follower rises, the follower rod, pushes on the acelerator/op rod catch, depresses the camming surface (forward teat on the latch) of the clip latch, and releases the enbloc. The issue might be there isn't enough bolt inertia to clear quickly and the enbloc might be hitting the "lagging" bolt as it travels reaward, therefore not clearing the receiver (a type of timing issue but not the one a timing gauge could ID).
2. The clip sping isn't new and is too weak.

A few more questions:
1. Does the rifles extract and eject all 8 cartridges during the firing sequence?
2.Does the bolt lock back everytime, or does it occasionally hit/jam into the partially ejected clip?
3. Is the ejector spring blued, parkerized grey/ green black, or in the white (completely unfinished)?
4. Are there any subtle drag marks on the inside of the stock, or anywhere along the travel of the op rod that might affect inertia?

Regards,
Michael

Aftermath · Dec 8, 2024

I do not recall the gents name but there is a guy that frequents the shooting range out east of Lapwai that is (as far as I am concerned) a Garand Grand Guru. When I showed up with my rack grade from CMP and told the RO's it was my first time shooting a Garand, they called him in and he gave it a good looking over and then coached me on proper use. My rifle worked fine, maybe not as accurate as a nice one but I bet there isn't a soul alive that wants that thing shooting their direction inside 400 yards.

Take your stuff with you and go out there on a Friday and ask the RO's about the Garand Grand Guru...ok, maybe don't ask by that title.
That guy should be able to diagnose and either rectify on the spot or steer you to the parts or whatever you need. Realize that he may not be there that day but that was the day I'd see him most often. I'm sure you can get connected. I am pretty sure he lives in Peck.

EDIT: That is a real nice looking rifle and in a far nicer case than the cardboard box mine arrived in.

GS455 · Dec 8, 2024

Have you contacted CMP. After all they are newly constructed rifles with, I would think a warranty.

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

FlightRN said:
Good Day LD,
Thank you for the expansion on the enbloc clip you're experiencing.

If understand you correctly, after the last round, the enbloc attempts to eject, but doesn't have enough momentum to clear the receiver and falls back and rests [empty] on the clip ejector spring.

I posit two possibilities:
1. When the follower rises, the follower rod, pushes on the acelerator/op rod catch, depresses the camming surface (forward teat on the latch) of the clip latch, and releases the enbloc. The issue might be there isn't enough bolt inertia to clear quickly and the enbloc might be hitting the "lagging" bolt as it travels reaward, therefore not clearing the receiver (a type of timing issue but not the one a timing gauge could ID).
2. The clip sping isn't new and is too weak.

A few more questions:
1. Does the rifles extract and eject all 8 cartridges during the firing sequence?
2.Does the bolt lock back everytime, or does it occasionally hit/jam into the partially ejected clip?
3. Is the ejector spring blued, parkerized grey/ green black, or in the white (completely unfinished)?
4. Are there any subtle drag marks on the inside of the stock, or anywhere along the travel of the op rod that might affect inertia?

Regards,
Michael

Absolutely sir, you've got it, the enbloc attempts to eject after the last round but for "some reason" (out of spec clips, binding, not enough/too much bolt velocity, user error {which could very well be the case}) the clip doesn't eject, the furthest it has is halfway.

To answer your follow-on questions, I have not experienced any issues ejecting fired cartridges during the sequence, and the bolt question is very obvious but if I'm being honest, I don't know if I can answer that with the same accuracy as the other questions. I 'want' to say that the bolt does NOT lock back either but I can only answer that with... say a 70% confidence level (although that seems like something I should have picked up on from the get-go now that you mention it). I can tear the rifle apart but I'm pretty confident that it's parkerized grey. No drag marks that have been picked up by my observation but I can certainly give it another look (I want to pat myself on the back on how thorough and observant I am, but I'm human and certainly capable of missing/overlooking things particularly when I'm frustrated).

-LD

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

Aftermath said:
I do not recall the gents name but there is a guy that frequents the shooting range out east of Lapwai that is (as far as I am concerned) a Garand Grand Guru. When I showed up with my rack grade from CMP and told the RO's it was my first time shooting a Garand, they called him in and he gave it a good looking over and then coached me on proper use. My rifle worked fine, maybe not as accurate as a nice one but I bet there isn't a soul alive that wants that thing shooting their direction inside 400 yards.

Take your stuff with you and go out there on a Friday and ask the RO's about the Garand Grand Guru...ok, maybe don't ask by that title.
That guy should be able to diagnose and either rectify on the spot or steer you to the parts or whatever you need. Realize that he may not be there that day but that was the day I'd see him most often. I'm sure you can get connected. I am pretty sure he lives in Peck.

EDIT: That is a real nice looking rifle and in a far nicer case than the cardboard box mine arrived in.

I do mean this to come across with the utmost respect (have to say that being that it's the Internet and tone doesn't always carry through as we intend) but while fantastic advice, the ranges around here- or at least the ones I shoot at aren't staffed by RO's. It's more-so the Wild West/self-police type of arrangement BUT I want to double down and say that your advice is excellent but it seems that the institutional knowledge of keeping these old warhorses running isn't as... widespread as it used to be.

Along the lines of your comment- I got to the point where my next 'best' idea was to go to a local/nearby high power match and pick the brains there but it seems that time marched on and most of the folks are shooting AR's with 4x scopes and the Garands are reserved for specialty matches. Growing up, I remember the club I belonged to used to supply Garands (and ammo too if I'm not mistaken) to anyone that showed an interest in high power shooting but unfortunately it seems like (at least locally) those folks aren't among us anymore.

Sorry if I'm rambling and in case it didn't come through, just wanted to thank you for your advice/suggestions and taking the time out to share them.

-LD

LuckyDuck · Dec 8, 2024

GS455 said:
Have you contacted CMP. After all they are newly constructed rifles with, I would think a warranty.

Obvious question/solution but to answer it- I have not. Partially because of pride, partially because of curiosity, but mainly I've been convinced that I could work it out in the forums (or at least wanted to give that an honest effort first).

If I can't figure it out, calling the CMP is exactly what I'm going to do but (not sure if this makes sense) as of the present moment, it's a frustration but one I still have the energy/desire to work through if for no other reason than being "a gun guy". If I have to throw in the proverbial towel and can't get the problem solved, I'll certainly go to the mothership.

So all that to say- great question/suggestion, I'm just being bull headed.

-LD

Edited to add: if this was a newly manufactured rifle, I'd absolutely and admittedly feel differently but this being an 80 year old rifle just seems more like a puzzle to me to figure out rather than expectations for a new product. Not sure if that makes any sense either (and more accurately, as I said, I'm just being bull headed) but part of the "charm/allure", if you can call it that, is figuring this old war horse out and getting it back into fighting shape more so as a hobby/personal interest in period timepieces than anything else.

GS455 · Dec 9, 2024

I haven't read through all of this, and I will, but have you tried a USGI Enloc? I've got a gazillion of them. I could sell you a fistful at a reasonable amount if you like. Which, really, you should be using anyway.

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

GS455 said:
I haven't read through all of this, and I will, but have you tried a Zusgo Enloc? I've got a gazillion of them I could sell you a fistful at a reasonable amount if you like

I've never even heard of those- do you have a link that I could research?

GS455 · Dec 9, 2024

Typo corrected. Have you tried USGI Enblocs

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

GS455 said:
Typo corrected. Have you tried USGI Enblocs

Hah ok, that makes more sense. To answer your question- I have not yet. I ended up pulling everything out though...

At least 1 (likely 2 of the clips that came with the rifles) is marked CMP interestingly enough. I must not have tried these clips yet...

The 20 I purchased are all stamped AEC (pics included). They all appear to be newly manufactured to my eye.

-LD

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

And lousy cell phone pictures inside the receiver...

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

While I was at it, some obligatory pics of the rifle itself as beautiful as it is.

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

I don't know how well this shows up on the camera/pictures but the above 3 pictures 'should' represent how much grease/lubrication was applied (I haven't screwed with it since the last range outing other than to clean out the barrel quickly) but there's a film of grease in the expected areas that as far as I can tell is appropriate.

In my opinion at least, it's not too thick that it'd gum up the action but if I were to run my finger across the raceways, it'd certainly displace the coating that's there (in case the sheen doesn't show up in the pics).

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

Likely my last set of pictures for the night. I'm actually a bit surprised that I (1) kept them for future reference and (2) was able to find them after having recently moved into a new house.

Anywho- as I referenced in previous posts and depicted in the 1st picture, the top 3 op rod springs were what I pulled from what came in from CMP (the right 3 in the second picture). The opposite trio in either picture are the new springs I have "in reserve" from Orion 7 that I mentioned I ordered.

Suffice to say- at least that part of my memory is still holding up that there isn't a discernible difference as far as length that would indicate/paint a clear picture of that part being out of spec. But they've been swapped out regardless and I mentioned.

-LD

LuckyDuck · Dec 9, 2024

Oops, one last alibi since it was suggested I look at it- the gas plug does appear to be snug & flush.

Aftermath · Dec 9, 2024

LuckyDuck said:
I do mean this to come across with the utmost respect (have to say that being that it's the Internet and tone doesn't always carry through as we intend) but while fantastic advice, the ranges around here- or at least the ones I shoot at aren't staffed by RO's. It's more-so the Wild West/self-police type of arrangement BUT I want to double down and say that your advice is excellent but it seems that the institutional knowledge of keeping these old warhorses running isn't as... widespread as it used to be.

Along the lines of your comment- I got to the point where my next 'best' idea was to go to a local/nearby high power match and pick the brains there but it seems that time marched on and most of the folks are shooting AR's with 4x scopes and the Garands are reserved for specialty matches. Growing up, I remember the club I belonged to used to supply Garands (and ammo too if I'm not mistaken) to anyone that showed an interest in high power shooting but unfortunately it seems like (at least locally) those folks aren't among us anymore.

Sorry if I'm rambling and in case it didn't come through, just wanted to thank you for your advice/suggestions and taking the time out to share them.

-LD

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GS455 · Dec 12, 2024

I dunno man, if I bought a brand new gun and it was misbehaving I'd get back in touch with the business that sold it to me. If it's used? Well, then buyer beware.

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Hey fellas, not exactly a sniper rifle but looking for some M1 Garand help if you have the experience...

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