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Sidearms & Scatterguns Two more P320s discharge in Holster.
- Thread starter ut755ln
- Start date
There is no way the shell casing could be ejected if the retention strap of the holster is still over the slide. Someone says "there is the casing". The gun would have to have been out of the holster for the casing to be ejected. You can see the attending emt/officer move the retention strap forward to remove the gun from the holster. Something is wrong with this story or we did not see the whole story.
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I’m torn on this. I believe these pistols are going off but I also don’t see how a guy who is walking, with a level 3 holster on a duty belt, gets shot in the leg. That bullet should have gone straight to ground (like the school hallway video) not through his leg.
I could be 100% wrong here, maybe his body type has the pistol angled in, but that looked like a high leg shot, through and through. How does that angle happen with a retained pistol on a duty belt while just walking?
I could be 100% wrong here, maybe his body type has the pistol angled in, but that looked like a high leg shot, through and through. How does that angle happen with a retained pistol on a duty belt while just walking?
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There is a comment by a YouTube user named @charlesgaston4439 that addresses this observation.
“It looks like that bit of bodycam footage could have been spliced out of sequence tbh. They're looking in the same area where the other officer took it to clear it. Edit: Yep if you look at the timestamps on the top of the screen, that comment is made after the pistol was cleared.”
The “Here’s the casing” bit is at ~1:30.
I’m not vouching for it, but the timestamps do appear to be as YT user @charlesgaston4439 says.
Since searching YT for comments effing sucks balls, go to a comment searcher like the ones below and paste in the URL and search for a bit of text that is in the above quote.
You can also see the pistol and magazine laying on the ground when he says "here's the casing". So he had already taken it out. The way the news edited the footage is kinda backwards.There is a comment by a YouTube user named @charlesgaston4439 that addresses this observation.
“It looks like that bit of bodycam footage could have been spliced out of sequence tbh. They're looking in the same area where the other officer took it to clear it. Edit: Yep if you look at the timestamps on the top of the screen, that comment is made after the pistol was cleared.”
The “Here’s the casing” bit is at ~1:30.
I’m not vouching for it, but the timestamps do appear to be as YT user @charlesgaston4439 says.
Since searching YT for comments effing sucks balls, go to a comment searcher like the ones below and paste in the URL and search for a bit of text that is in the above quote.
It depends on the type of duty holster that is used. I used Safariland and some are angled towards your leg when worn on a belt and others are straight down. Not the best pic but it gives you an idea
Totally un related.. they should have just went with glocks. It's tested.
Had this come in an email today from my chosen FFL.
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I wonder how many P320's are out in the wild now.
According to Sig, there are more than 2.5 million Sig P320's in the 48 USA states and probably a few more around the world.
To me, it seems with all of the "pistol fired by itself" There should be dead bodies laying everywhere.
My P320 lives locked and loaded at all times, It sleeps right next to my head and unholstered loose on the seat beside me when I'm up in the mountains and my POS P320 has never fired on it's own.
I even had my P320 drop out of my Denali holster, bounce off the ground and then just laid there. No discharges at all. No screaming women and children running for safety.
How come our military isn't accidently disharging around the world?
Maybe we could have President Trump delve into this.
According to Sig, there are more than 2.5 million Sig P320's in the 48 USA states and probably a few more around the world.
To me, it seems with all of the "pistol fired by itself" There should be dead bodies laying everywhere.
My P320 lives locked and loaded at all times, It sleeps right next to my head and unholstered loose on the seat beside me when I'm up in the mountains and my POS P320 has never fired on it's own.
I even had my P320 drop out of my Denali holster, bounce off the ground and then just laid there. No discharges at all. No screaming women and children running for safety.
How come our military isn't accidently disharging around the world?
Maybe we could have President Trump delve into this.
Now, I am not on either side of this issue. But in this, as in many areas of life, it pays to use some critical thinking skills here.
Critical thinking does not end with one’s own experiences on the matter. Otherwise, I’d probably think the earth was flat and the sky is actually blue (instead of being transparent).
I imagine the acceptable failure rate for a firearm’s safety apparatus approaches zero, so on the whole there doesn’t need to be very many failures, in absolute terms, to be very, very worrying.
Some units in the US military apparently disallow carrying one in the chamber, but other units are allowed to carry in condition one. Plus, the military insisted that their version (M17/18) have an external safety.
Hopefully, now you can see that:
- Pretty much any number over zero is a worrying failure rate for a safety (esp. in a new-ish gun in good condition), and
- your personal experiences don’t really statistically matter in such a low incidence failure scenario, and
- since the failure rate is low, that is why there are not “dead bodies laying everywhere,” and
- the US military’s external safety, round chambering and carry rules might explain a lot of things (I’m not sure of how many, if any,
accidentaluncommanded discharges have happened with the military Sigs; although https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...t-on-sig-m17-18-accidental-discharge.7223494/)
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I feel like I'm living an alternate reality. Didn't we go through this in the 90s when everyone adopted Glocks?
The thing is, Carbonbased, is that I am speaking of my expierence.
How many parrots are just repeating what that guy on youtube said?
There are many commonalities with these mysterious discharges other than just the weapon.
How many parrots are just repeating what that guy on youtube said?
There are many commonalities with these mysterious discharges other than just the weapon.
Personal experience owning and carrying the 320 (as you’ve already noted)? Or some other sort of experience?
Personal experience doesn’t really count for reasons I already covered. I mean, tons of people drive cars everyday that have safety recalls on them…airbags, gas tanks, etc…stuff that could kill them but it doesn’t.
But the recalls are there because the risk to harm has been calculated to be too great.
For example, someone might say, “Driven my Pinto through Somalia, got rear-ended by Scary WarLord and it never blew up.” Good for you, that’s interesting, but it doesn’t move the ball?
There very well may be. As I mentioned, I’m not on one side or the other of this issue.
I was merely taking issue with your logic, which, as written in post #9, is pretty faulty.
I’m not interested in a brawl…if you’ve got more evidence or reasoning then have at it.
i thought the same thing but there’s 2 huge differences now -
Striker fired stuff is mainstream now with no learning curve for people going to a 320.
There are cameras everywhere now, catching it on film.
How many are on camera with zero manipulation of the gun?
So far every one I've seen someone had their hand on it doing something, and it's generally a shitty 480i video where you can't tell what got stuck in the trigger guard. But you can generally assume it was something in the trigger guard if they go off when it's being shoved back into the holster.
Found it in this thread. Might be others in there too.
Military releases report on Sig M17/18 accidental discharge
No reason for concern A bullet from the sergeant’s own gun ripped through his foot, leading to surgery and six months of rehabilitation. Photos included in the Army’s report appear to show a bloodstained carpet. “Don’t feel safe around those weapons anymore,” the sergeant later told investigators
www.snipershide.com
@Terry Cross has something to say about the holsters in that same thread:
Military releases report on Sig M17/18 accidental discharge
The CZ p10 series, the M&P, and all the other Glock 'clones' are only partially cocked, but all with enough energy to ignite a primer if safeties were to fail. The AR-15 isn't truly safe either- if struck hard enough on the buttstock it could fire. I think it's H&K who improved the design of the...
www.snipershide.com
Quite a few with hands not on the pistol. Searching a subject, walking to a car, getting out of a car.
And let’s say that something did get into the trigger guard from normal day to day functions of carrying a pistol, it’s only 320’s that are reportedly having problems.
Like I said, pistol, holster, or combo of the 2 - there is a problem.
Just found this off a Reddit post. While not exclusively upon the subject of uncommanded discharges, it does a good job at explaining a plausible theory behind why it is happening with the 320. As it also describes the general history of the cases, I learned a lot about Sig’s corporate behavior.
Summary (partially cribbed from that Reddit post):
1: The 320 has a number of parts made via Metal Injection Molding (MIM). In MIM the part shrinks rather a lot as the binder is dissolved and heated out of it.
TL;DR: MIM parts are like Shrinky Dinks.
An expert has testified that because of this, edges frequently round off and part dimensions can be quite different compared to other 320’s (expert compared four guns in hand, and one via photos). The MIM parts were all of different sizes in the four guns…not sure how much different, but worrisomely different, I guess.
Sig also reportedly used a number of different subcontractors to MIM parts, which further opens the door to different subc producing parts to varying standards.
Anyway, the working theory is that if your part dimensions are all over the place, things can stack up just right and
.2: In the recent lawsuit that Sig lost (they are 0-1 in court with a jury): Did you know that Sig got caught tampering with the evidence? Sig was caught loosening the screws on the holster to manufacture a claim that the holster somehow caused the discharge.
3: Sig's current CEO has plead guilty to illegal arms trafficking to a German court. Not throwing shade here for shade-throwing’s sake, but it was used to show that Sig is way too into bending laws for profit (among other examples).
4: Many of the cases Sig has successfully had dismissed were because of a legal standard which requires expert witnesses to scientifically prove their claims. Which upon its face, sounds fine. However, in this case, the experts say that would mean having to buy and test a large number of p320 pistols (financially and logistically impossible for the plaintiffs).
Reddit post:
Again, I’m not on one side or the other. But the first vid at least presents a cogent argument.
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In general interest Glock vs. Sig safety news, I was bored and looked up some vids as to how exactly the two companies designed their safeties.
I’m no gunsmith and am not intimately familiar with these guns. I do own a 19x, CZ P-01 & Rami, but am much more of a precision rifle guy. I admit lusting a bit over a P226 Mk25 after fondling one in the shop.
I couldn’t find a nice animated 320 vid. The one I did find wasn’t as detailed as I’d prefer as the P320 has lots of little springs and stuff. It nonetheless shows how the 320 fully cocks its striker spring vs the Glock.
I was surprised just how different the mechanisms were. The videos helped me visualize exactly what people are saying about the rather complicated safety mechanism of the Sig…including two sears?
Edit: lots of intricately-shaped and important 320 bits have a “diecast” look, which I’m sure they’re not? I assume these are MIM.
I could see that, unless carefully created, varying the dimensions of these curved interlocking pieces could be very bad.
Btw I posted this for the boobs like me, and not for you experienced guys.
I’m no gunsmith and am not intimately familiar with these guns. I do own a 19x, CZ P-01 & Rami, but am much more of a precision rifle guy. I admit lusting a bit over a P226 Mk25 after fondling one in the shop.
I couldn’t find a nice animated 320 vid. The one I did find wasn’t as detailed as I’d prefer as the P320 has lots of little springs and stuff. It nonetheless shows how the 320 fully cocks its striker spring vs the Glock.
I was surprised just how different the mechanisms were. The videos helped me visualize exactly what people are saying about the rather complicated safety mechanism of the Sig…including two sears?
Edit: lots of intricately-shaped and important 320 bits have a “diecast” look, which I’m sure they’re not? I assume these are MIM.
I could see that, unless carefully created, varying the dimensions of these curved interlocking pieces could be very bad.
Btw I posted this for the boobs like me, and not for you experienced guys.
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I have a p320 and like it on a range but I would take precautions if I were to carry it chambered, mainly cycling the weapon every time it’s unholstered. It has a fatal flaw that isn’t overly discussed at least in my opinion. On most striker pistols when you pull to the wall then release the striker safety returns to its safe position blocking the striker, the p320 doesn’t. So when you pull to the wall(or if the trigger moves at all holstering and re-holstering multiple times).the striker safety stays disengaged. You disengage every internal safely on that weapon in the first few millimeters of trigger pull, and the internal safeties don’t engage again until it is cycled. Combine that with the lack of a trigger donegal preventing objects from engaging the trigger or the trigger moving intentionally and the discharges don’t surprise me, their are probably a number of people at this moment that haven’t cycled their weapon recently, where the trigger has been slightly actuated that have a fully charged striker and a open striker channel. I just prefer the Glock, CZ, or Beretta striker pistols where the striker isn’t fully charged, it’s just a little more piece of mind for myself at least. The mim part issue is also real, I’ve seen pictures of different p320’s that show different levels of wear and dimensions particularly on the ledge holding the striker that weren’t reassuring.
Mmmm. You're painting with too broad of a brush. This isn't really the case. Most units run cold ranges. Like USPSA matches. But when in the conduct of an exercise or drill the weapon is holstered loaded. Some units run hot ranges, safe direction loads in a 360° environment. But these units also use a large amount of Glocks to the ratio of Sigs. I don't know for sure, but basic, service level MOSs that have a daily carry requirement for duty shifts like MPs probably carry loaded. Where you get this foolish loaded mag/ empty chamber BS is from ignorant low level(Co level and below) leaders sporadically across the formations making up SOPs or protocols in reaction to young, poorly trained troops displaying poor weapons handling skills from a lack of maturity and training. Primarily non-combat arms units. At least that's been my tangential experience with those types of units. I've never been in one of those units but have had to coexist with them on forward operating bases. There certainly isn't an Army wide protocol codified in doctrine where the loaded status of a pistol is loaded magazine/ empty chamber.
Interesting. So the 320’s trigger behaves like some allegedly “fake” two stage rifle triggers. Where (again allegedly) after NOT firing, returning the trigger to its start position doesn’t actually fully reset the internals.
If memory serves, the example I’m thinking about is the Huber “2 stage” rifle trigger.
Well, if true, that IS some disturbing p320 news.
Thanks for that. Feedback like this (and @Jgault ‘s) is how we can actually cement some group-sourced facts together.
Originally, I had added the word “apparently” as I wasn’t quite all-in on the source of that info. I’ll further modify that sentence now.
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So, I can’t find anything on the non-resetting effect that you describe. Can you post links to, say, videos, animations, or other’s descriptions of this?
I’m not saying I don’t believe you, it’s just good to get confirmation. (Not only on gun stuff, but pretty much all stuff)
I remembered a report from magnum research on this I attached bellow, I realize they are a Sig competitor but Magnum research makes very good weapons and I doubt they would have released the report if it was inaccurate and Sig could sue them at any moment.
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23759277/tertin-slatowski-report.pdf
The information is under section D. He doesn’t specifically address the reset itself but states once the trigger travels the initial fraction of a inch without firing the internal safeties are disabled, and the weapon can fire in this state from being dropped or jostled.
As it turns out in recent reports this is a problem the military is having as well. I k ow there were a large number of discharges when law enforcement went with Glocks back in the day but that was due to officers bad habits of having their finger on the trigger combined with the reduction of pull weight between a double action and a striker. I’ve never seen anything credible on a Glock going off in a holster, but I’ve seen a few videos now of p320 going off with an officer just getting out of the car. Sig keeps releasing explanations on the videos but honestly the more it happens Sig seems to be jumping through mental hoops trying to explain it. Some of the videos are obvious user error, and that woman that threw it in her purse was just unbelievably negligent, but there are now a number of videos that are very hard to dispute, and to keep saying it was improperly holstered just isn’t working anymore.
I see you addressed that in your post. Apologies for not reading carefully. So the answer to the question about the safeties resetting after a slight trigger press is up in the air. The videos I have seen seem to show the safeties are indeed resetting in that scenario.
But the potential MIM dimensional challenges coupled with the minimal trigger movement needed to disengage the internal safeties certainly give me pause.
I also note that Sig itself admits that the design is single action as the action fully cocks the striker spring. The author asserts that all other single action pistols on the market have an external safety. I see why the military insists on that external safety on the 320.
Also noted is that the lead engineer of the P320 (Sean Toner) admitted he would not carry one in the chamber with that gun! (Last sentence right before Section D):
Notably, Mr. Toner testified that he would not personally feel comfortable carrying a P320 with a round in the chamber. Deposition of Sean Toner at 89:4-91:1.
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As far as the reset part that is just my opinion and or experience, just experimenting with mine I can easily move the trigger slightly past the wall without firing, and the trigger doesn’t return to its previous position. In that position the trigger weight drops from its intial weight of over 5 pounds to a very short travel and a 4 pound weight indicating the trigger had already began its travel. I’m definitely not a Sig hater and still like the gun for range use, but I wouldn’t carry it chambered unless it was my last firearm remaining and I lived in the Bronx.
You should test it: smack it around a bit after the slight “trigger press and release” to see if the striker releases. And put it in a holster and bump the grip.
Obv without a round in the chamber. Duh.
^^^^^^^
I would think this is a pretty easy test with a pistol with dummy rounds loaded to actual weight specs and run through testing with the various holsters used. There also seems to be many instances of holsters that aren't designed for the specific 320 being involved especially Safariland. When my son was in USAF Security Forces they carried with a chamber loaded safety off (M9) but not sure how it's done now especially since they all have manual safety afaik in all branches.
I would think this is a pretty easy test with a pistol with dummy rounds loaded to actual weight specs and run through testing with the various holsters used. There also seems to be many instances of holsters that aren't designed for the specific 320 being involved especially Safariland. When my son was in USAF Security Forces they carried with a chamber loaded safety off (M9) but not sure how it's done now especially since they all have manual safety afaik in all branches.
A bit different scenario and it was more like late 80s. Street cops where used to 10lb da/sa autos or 8-10lb da revolver triggers. That heavy ass first trigger pull does alot to prevent ND/AD issues. When they were handed glocks that had a 4.5-5.5lb trigger pull, it unmasked poor gun handling by some cops, hence ND/AD. Also serpa holster, mid 90s, brought back the issue, as some people could not manage to keep booger hook off trigger during draw from serpa. Trigger finger pushes in on serpa button to unlock and during draw they still were pushing/curling trigger finger and found trigger on the the way out of holster.
The sig320 has had plenty of straight up issues, sure some are the "I didn't even touch it and it fired" bs that some patrol guy got finger fucking it and made up a story to cya. A quick history look at those guys that had AD with a sig will show questionable or competent gun handling in their past. Also, if they never had any issue with a glock before, why an issue with the sig? The biggest issue with the sig is no trigger shoe safety and being fully cocked at all times with no mechanical safety on probably half or more sig320 sold. Sure mil uses them but all have mech safety engaged. A sig 320 is akin to carry a 1911 hot with no safety(thumb or grip safety). Combine in alot of stamped sheet metal and India sourced mim and seems dicey at best.
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One question I have is does the safety on the M17 and M18 eliminate the spontaneous holster discharges?
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