Is there a gray area between a SBR & a Pistol or is the definition cut & dried?

CZ 527 · Dec 8, 2024

I am considering a suppressed 338 ARC as a deer hunting firearm. Sticky point per state game laws is the ammo in a shoulder held firearm is required to use ammo that produces 1000 ft pounds at the muzzle. Whereas a hand gun is only required to use ammo that produces 500 ft pounds at the muzzle. This may suggest that I may not use subsonic ammo from a shoulder held 338 ARC though the same subsonic ammo is perfectly acceptable from a hand gun.

What is the difference technically between a 12" SBR & a 12" hand gun? Same question applies weather I am asking about a bolt action firearm or an AR.

Namekagon · Dec 8, 2024

It’s pretty clearly divided for now. Things may change, but I’d bet not under Trump. Just build the gun as a braced pistol. I don’t see how state game officials could claim it’s a rifle if the ATF says it’s a pistol.

Namekagon · Dec 8, 2024

Just to add,

To build the gun as a pistol, it has to start life as one. You can’t convert a receiver that is a rifle into a pistol, that makes a SBR and has to be registered.

Easiest way to do this is to go to the local gun shop and buy the registered part, (such as the AR lower) but tell them it’s going to be built as a pistol and make sure they record the purchase as a pistol ( there might be an “other weapon” classification that works also, I don’t remember exactly. Just make sure it’s not a rifle purchase). The gun shop should know what to do. I think you can also do this with a new bolt action as well.

hlee · Dec 8, 2024

If the receiver transfers as a receiver, it can be built into a pistol. If it transfers as a rifle, it is always a rifle.

That said, I “think” a ruling regarding the TC Encore blew a pretty big hole in the “once a rifle, always a rifle” as applied to ARs by the ATF…

I’m not a lol-yer, but there might be some legal wiggle room to snare a braced pistol, given the wording of “shoulder fired” vs “hand held…”

My personal opinion is that if you are in an area where you can SBR it, and crossing state lines isn’t a worry, just SBR it and be done.

srt-4_uk · Dec 8, 2024

hlee said:
My personal opinion is that if you are in an area where you can SBR it, and crossing state lines isn’t a worry, just SBR it and be done.

The problem in OPs case is an SBR is a Short Barrel Rifle and cannot use the same rounds as a pistol to hunt with

HD1911 · Dec 8, 2024

Pistol it and be done with it. Don’t overthink it.

hlee · Dec 9, 2024

srt-4_uk said:
The problem in OPs case is an SBR is a Short Barrel Rifle and cannot use the same rounds as a pistol to hunt with

Maybe the OP’s area is blessed with GWs with more appreciation of nuance than those around here. I’d expect them to see either a stock or a brace and say “shoulder fired.”

“But, but, you see, it’s not a ‘rifle’ because I didn’t register it with the ATF. I mean, I didn’t need to register it because the stock is a brace. I mean the brace isn’t a stock.”

“Get in the car, loser. We’re doin’ law stuff.”

They say “you can beat the charge, but not the ride.”

No, I get it. Given the way laws are crafted, I wouldn’t put a brace on an AR intended to not fit a “shoulder fired” designation. And, bullets approximating the weight of pistol bullets, fired at pistol velocities, should be expected to act like pistol bullets. Don’t expect “rifle performance” just because you held the gun to your shoulder.

But, the best answer is to contact your dept of wildlife and ask them. Then, ask the local GW about his interpretation. If you do have a run in, it will be the GW that you are dealing with.

Mike Casselton · Dec 9, 2024

Simple, don't put a brace on the pistol. It's a pistol without being a "shoulder fired weapon."

Nothing would stop you from accidently bumping your shoulder while you fire it...

Bakwa · Dec 9, 2024

As a former game warden, and as one who has encountered many games wardens in different states, GW's seem to know that fed laws regarding firearms is not something they want to deal with. I even had the jurisdiction as a federally deputized GW to make a stink, but we were told not to touch stuff that ATF would otherwise deal with. Sounded good to me.
State laws may be different if they're further defined when compared to fed law, but I wouldn't worry as much if we're talking about fed definitions.
That's my experience from the other side of the counter anyways.

Wannashootit · Dec 9, 2024

CZ 527 said:
What is the difference technically between a 12" SBR & a 12" hand gun? Same question applies weather I am asking about a bolt action firearm or an AR.

Depends on how the receiver was registered at time of distribution into commerce.
You can't take an AR that was sold at retail as a rifle, and turn it into a pistol. Ditto for bolt guns- same rules apply.

"Once a rifle, always a rifle". It cannot be changed.

tinker · Dec 11, 2024

Namekagon said:
Just to add,

To build the gun as a pistol, it has to start life as one. You can’t convert a receiver that is a rifle into a pistol, that makes a SBR and has to be registered.

Easiest way to do this is to go to the local gun shop and buy the registered part, (such as the AR lower) but tell them it’s going to be built as a pistol and make sure they record the purchase as a pistol ( there might be an “other weapon” classification that works also, I don’t remember exactly. Just make sure it’s not a rifle purchase). The gun shop should know what to do. I think you can also do this with a new bolt action as well.

"make sure they record the purchase as a pistol"

FYI that is illegal. A dealer can't do that. That would be manufacturing without a license and can land them in a LOT of hot water. It's also tax evasion. If the dealer gets an inspection and wants to make the dealers life miserable ....it won't be good.

ClangClang · Dec 12, 2024

Lots of fuddlore and incorrect terminology in this thread.

Buy a brand new stripped lower receiver. It must be recorded (not registered) on the 4473 as an "Other Firearm" so confirm that with the FFL before starting paperwork. From there you can build it into a pistol with a brace.

tinker · Dec 12, 2024

ClangClang said:
Lots of fuddlore and incorrect terminology in this thread.

Buy a brand new stripped lower receiver. It must be recorded (not registered) on the 4473 as an "Other Firearm" so confirm that with the FFL before starting paperwork. From there you can build it into a pistol with a brace.

View attachment 8567087

Exactly.

Side note, NJ (which is ride down the road from us) makes dealers transfer them as rifles. So people in NJ can buy a lower but have to build it into a rifle. Then NJ folks figured out that "other firearms" aren't banned like AR evil features and AR pistols, but since they can only buy "rifles" as stripped lowers they can't build themselves an "other" they have to have a Mfg log it in and change it to an other and engrave it. Some stuff is stupid but things like that create a lot of the confusion.

Another thing that makes ithe fuddlore worse is a lot of dealers have no odea what they are doing. Some fudd will just an ffl out of his basement and go do shows. I have seen a bunch of table top dealers here in PA at gun shows sell stripped lowers to NJ residents and record them as rifles on the 4473

More than once I have done a show and refused to sell a stripped lower to a nj resident and then had them actually get pissed and tell me I was wring because dealer over there (whatever direction they point to) just sold them one and proceeded to hold it up in front of me to prove how wrong I was.

carbonbased · Dec 17, 2024

It’s time to unearth this chestnut again.

I can’t tell you if every tiny bit of it is correct, but it sure seems like it. Edit: at least at the time the vid was made.

That channel has some other vids talking about future developments (some of which, I believe, were struck down).

cas6969 · Dec 17, 2024

Namekagon said:
I don’t see how state game officials could claim it’s a rifle if the ATF says it’s a pistol.

Simple. By writing the ticket.
No longer his problem. Now your problem.

Wannashootit · Dec 17, 2024

ClangClang said:
Lots of fuddlore and incorrect terminology in this thread.

Buy a brand new stripped lower receiver. It must be recorded (not registered) on the 4473 as an "Other Firearm" so confirm that with the FFL before starting paperwork. From there you can build it into a pistol with a brace.

View attachment 8567087

True- and this is what the OP should do, assuming he wants to build it himself.

CZ 527 said:
What is the difference technically between a 12" SBR & a 12" hand gun? Same question applies weather I am asking about a bolt action firearm or an AR.

It's also important he understand the distinction in how the receiver was recorded initially if purchasing an assembled rifle or pistol, whether new or used- and that (for example) he can't buy a used AR rifle that he got a smokin' deal on- and put a brace and 10" barrel on it.

CZ 527 · Tuesday at 12:08 PM

Thanks for the input all. Checked with our State game & fish on this & the individual that responded was clear that if the firearm is to be in any way used as shoulder fired then rifle ft lb requirements apply. Suppose The 458 socom may be the best way around meeting the rifle ft lb requirement for my subsonic itch.

Or perhaps I'll just continue with the Supersonic 6mm ARC that has been serving me very well. In all likelihood I could use anything here that has been touched on & never get checked by a game warden, Though why push it.

Kayakfish1 · Tuesday at 12:17 PM

How are they going to prove the muzzle energy of the rounds you’re using to harvest a deer?
I have had a bunch of interactions with game wardens, and I know that I’ve had some that were looking to write me a ticket for anything they could find but the majority of them have been very easy to get along with, just checking license/tags and sending me in my way.
I feel like you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill on this subject, fwiw you could always carry a factory supersonic box full of whatever subsonic pill you’re shooting and if they check you just say “yes sir here’s my ammo”……..

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