Stock design and trigger hand placement

Odysseus1911 · Jan 1, 2020

Asked this question previously and no hits. Trying again with lots of pictures and less words.

Virtually all handguns position the firing hand fingers an inch or less behind the trigger. . .

like my .45 here.

Many precision rifle stocks also position the fingers of the firing hand very close to the trigger to facilitate a short, straight, and un-strained trigger pull. . .

like this drop dead gorgeous Anschutz 1927 CISM

or this Doan Trevor Palma stock

Some of the most widely respected sniper rifles have adopted these ergonomics. . .

My question is this: Why do Manners, McMillan, HS Precision, Bell & Carlson, etc. make their precision rifle stocks with the grip so far behind the trigger?

like this Manners PRS-1 as an example

Is it just something that got carried over from making sporter stocks for hunting rifles? Is it designed for a different type of shooting? I mean look at the grip on this sporter. It's a country mile behind the trigger. That can't be good for consistent shot placement because your hand has to float, right?

gnochi · Jan 1, 2020

As far as I can tell, the modified hand position is because you can’t put your palm behind the vertical grip on stocks, so they set it up so your palm rests against the side of the grip instead of your fingers resting against the side of the grip and your palm hanging off in space.

Ahogue · Jan 1, 2020

I never really realized how far back those sit....and now i cant un see it

morganlamprecht · Jan 1, 2020

Might have to do with the bottom metals...they’d have to cut a channel for the rear bottom metal pad

I dislike it tho...the most comfortable grips to me are vertical chassis and ARs that sit right against the trigger guard like my AI...it just fills your hand and doesn’t leave any dead space in your hand

my AI fits like a glove, my manners and foundations I can shoot fine, but don’t feel near as locked in/connected no matter how I grip them

Superjet · Jan 1, 2020

AG Composites also has a very long reach. I think part of the reason is rear action screw access.

I ended up trying a Magpul 700 pro for the adjustable hand grip location on my last build and it's working out nicely. The KRG Bravo I have also puts your hand in a good position close to the trigger guard.

Odysseus1911 · Jan 1, 2020

morganlamprecht said:
Might have to do with the bottom metals...they’d have to cut a channel for the rear bottom metal pad

Didn’t think of that. I bet that’s why.

morganlamprecht · Jan 1, 2020

Notice that on the foundations they’ve been moving the grip closer and closer every new model, it’s almost there

genesis > exodus > revelation

revelation is right up against the bottom metal pad pretty much

morganlamprecht · Jan 2, 2020

reubenski said:
It's amazing to me that this isn't figured out and standardized by now. Human bodies are different but finger lengths aren't really that different. Whoever consulted their grip design in the beginning should probably be acknowledged as "not on it".

Lol the funny thing is that original grip was checked out by a really well known and good shooter/smith and he said it was perfect how he liked it

wasn’t an accident, just a really different preference apparently

Nortex · Jan 2, 2020

morganlamprecht said:
Lol the funny thing is that original grip was checked out by a really well known and good shooter/smith and he said it was perfect how he liked it

wasn’t an accident, just a really different preference apparently

A couple of those OG foundation runners do have some pretty big bear paws for hands though. If John Kyle would just add more palm swell like the manners have I'd be running them over the rest.

perttime · Jan 2, 2020

The "traditional" rifle stocks also let you grip higher, with the middle finger behind the trigger guard....

WB300 · Jan 2, 2020

perttime said:
The "traditional" rifle stocks also let you grip higher, with the middle finger behind the trigger guard....

I've been grappling with this same question. Look at the Kimber Montana and Hunter stocks. They have a swept back grip which I can't stand. I believe traditional stocks have a drop at the comb and flatter grip angle due to history/tradition. Think of a model 94 lever action. Traditional hunting stocks (I believe but may be wrong) were designed to be shouldered while leaning into it and standing or sitting with the body bladed 45 to 90 degrees from the target... certainly not square to the target in the prone.

Now why has it taken this long for stock companies to produce more vertical grip angles with the trigger closer to the grip??? My guess (and only a guess) is trends and sales. Up until recently, the PRS/Tactical world was a small segment of rifle stocks. People are slow to change. Some people on this site changed 30 years ago, others more recently. But a company won't produce something unless they believe it will sustain enough sales to be profitable.

I got my first chassis in the Black Friday sale from MDT and it's an eye opener. The LSS chassis with an ERGO Delux pistol grip put my hand and trigger finger in the most comfortable spot. If I can wait that long... I will be replacing more of my traditional stocks when sales come around.

This is all just my guess and I may be wrong. I'm just thinking out loud to hopefully contribute to the thread and encourage more participation.

Respectfully....

Terry Cross · Jan 2, 2020

Some worked through this issue years ago.

When the SENTINEL stock was designed, the goal was to allow good hand position regardless of what contortions the rest of your body might be forced into. Those concerns are what drove the entire grip section design of this stock up to an including the "reach" between the trigger pad and where the web of your hand would rest when using the thumbhole.

./

Terry Cross · Jan 2, 2020

reubenski said:
Terry, what is your shooting background beyond LE and the training you run now? Did you have any formal training from established institutions like NRA service Rifle, military Advanced Rifle Marksmanship, or equivalent?

Abbreviated background on this page: https://78db39a9-acfa-4415-8395-b0f...d/498d91_f902a076a84a4a60adf8cd62fc41c2fc.pdf

I also worked and trained with a lot of service rifle, AMU, MTU friends and others years ago.

Still learning and trying to keep an open mind.

./

diggler1833 · Jan 2, 2020

This is as much a personal preference issue as anything else, and I'm sure logical points can be conjured to support near and far placement.

My hands are maybe just a bit larger than average, and I absolutely love fatter grips. Not that I can't shoot a smaller grip, as I had a bit of success in various service rifle matches during my time in the Marines. I can also shoot my traditional grip rifles just as accurately as my vertical grip stocked ones.

However - to me - a fatter/further grip just naturally places MY pad of MY trigger finger where it needs to be...essentially reducing the number of mental checklist items before each shot by one. YMMV.

Give me a McMillan A4 and some original target stocks for a S&W revolver and I'm as happy as a pig in shit.

Terry Cross · Jan 2, 2020

reubenski said:
Do you think there is a definable standard for applying a shooting hand grip? Industrial application....
......................
What are your thoughts? Did you go thru something similar?

Definable standard......No sir. Not really.
You can go through hundreds of defined basics that are supposed to be best tailored to produce the most consistency and then the masses will still go with whatever the trend is.

Example is the way most comp shooters are not gripping the stock in the classical sense but rather laying their hand down the side of the stock. This has shown up in most of the sniper schools and we see it bleeding into other realms.

Now some of us think there are cons to that technique being used on work guns and although rare, you still see shooters using consistent conventional grip techniques that are beating everyone else......

I did a lot of measuring and surveyed a ton of good shooters before finalizing on the shape and dimensions of my stock but my goal was to have a usable "compromise" that would work across a spectrum of hand sizes and training/capability for the average officer/user that the stock/rifle would be issued to. My idea was that even if a shooter knew little or nothing about hand placement, I was going to get them pretty close just by default.

Stocks are THE user interface for extracting the most technical accuracy out of the rifle under field conditions. Even though we can assign standards you would like to meet, ultimately personal user preferences and shooting styles seem to drive the market. There are some designer grip and stock makers showing up to take their money.

./

spife7980 · Jan 3, 2020

I love the mdt vertical grip on the acc because it’s one of the few grips I can actually get my finger 90 degrees to the trigger. Most everything else has me reaching for it.

BCX · Jan 3, 2020

Terry Cross said:
Some worked through this issue years ago.

When the SENTINEL stock was designed, the goal was to allow good hand position regardless of what contortions the rest of your body might be forced into. Those concerns are what drove the entire grip section design of this stock up to an including the "reach" between the trigger pad and where the web of your hand would rest when using the thumbhole.

What camo pattern is that?

View attachment 7214876

./

A&8's · Jan 3, 2020

Personally I like the MPR Enhanced Vertical Grip. Only thing I would do is add the ability to adjust like on the MDT ACC grip.

z7.jled · Jan 3, 2020

And don’t even try to fit a gun to a kid cuz it ain’t happening,

Steel head · Jan 3, 2020

spife7980 said:
I love the mdt vertical grip on the acc because it’s one of the few grips I can actually get my finger 90 degrees to the trigger. Most everything else has me reaching for it.

I have a MDT grip on my XLR element.
It’s nice to be able to set it at the perfect distance.

brianf · Jan 3, 2020

z7.jled said:
And don’t even try to fit a gun to a kid cuz it ain’t happening,

last one i did...used a saw to chop off a bunch of stock then reshaped the but pad

latest trends are shorter LOP and vert grip...both are uncomfortable for me
but im also not a strait behind the rifle guy
still flat footed but i sprawl to the left
i dont know how some guys necks take it

but i can actually close my eyes and fall asleep behind a old school square AI

ddavis · Jan 3, 2020

I was able to get the grip on a wood stock this close to the bottom metal with a mini mill and zero experience with making stocks OR using a mill. I'm confident the stock makers can figure it out. With this set up, my middle finger is very close to the trigger guard. If you have sausage fingers it might be too close. BUT it works so much better than a Manners for getting your trigger finger at 90 degrees. I'm 6'1 and have pretty long fingers. You'll notice a lot of people shooting Manners stocks just float their hand over the grip. I really don't understand why they are made that way. Once you've experienced a stock/chassis that has the grip closer to the trigger it's hard to go back to hovering your hand over the grip.

-Dan

jzwolen · Jan 3, 2020

reubenski said:
I think this is it. No one in this sport learns the same. There's no consistent instructional phase of the basics that EVERYONE goes through. No common to all base line.

I'm 6'4", 240lbs, wear size 12 shoes, and XL gloves and I think the reach on the first Foundations is too long. I really don't know how a person grips that without having to reach for the trigger. Perhaps fat hands really do put the trigger finger closer to the trigger. Literal fat palms.

Exactly....just another example of personal preference/whatever fits the specific shooter. I've been running Manners stocks for the past 5yrs, and have rather large hands. I always hated that most triggers are so close to the back of the trigger guard. To compensate, I run Timney CE adjustable triggers, and run the trigger shoe about halfway into the trigger guard. Naturally places my finger pad where it needs to go.

Bottom line...its your gun, and do whatever you need to do to make it fit you the best.

PBWalsh · Jan 3, 2020

I’m a shorter guy (5’8”) and do wish Manners and McMillian made their grips closer to the trigger. The A10 from McMillian seems to look right though. I actually modified a factory CZ 452 sporter stock for this reason. Looks awful, but it was very comfortable for my hands.

Dthomas3523 · Jan 3, 2020

This is why I only use AI and Kmw sentinels. And occasionally McMillan A10 (it’s slightly further back than the other two).

Dthomas3523 · Jan 3, 2020

PBWalsh said:
I’m a shorter guy (5’8”) and do wish Manners and McMillian made their grips closer to the trigger. The A10 from McMillian seems to look right though. I actually modified a factory CZ 452 sporter stock for this reason. Looks awful, but it was very comfortable for my hands.

A10 is pretty good. It’s slightly further back than AI and Sentinel (they are very close to the same feel IMO).

Dthomas3523 · Jan 3, 2020

Terry Cross said:
Some worked through this issue years ago.

When the SENTINEL stock was designed, the goal was to allow good hand position regardless of what contortions the rest of your body might be forced into. Those concerns are what drove the entire grip section design of this stock up to an including the "reach" between the trigger pad and where the web of your hand would rest when using the thumbhole.

View attachment 7214876

./

Best grip I’ve ever used and I’ve tried most every one out there.

I’m sure you’ve answered this a million times, what is the “hump” in front of the magwell designed for? I don’t have any issues with it at all. Just curious as to the design intent.

Steel head · Jan 3, 2020

Dthomas3523 said:
Best grip I’ve ever used and I’ve tried most every one out there.

I’m sure you’ve answered this a million times, what is the “hump” in front of the magwell designed for? I don’t have any issues with it at all. Just curious as to the design intent.

I’ve always wondered that as well.

Greg Langelius * · Dec 8, 2020

I have larger hands (XXL Glove), and have equipped all of my AR based rifles with the Luth AR Chubby Grip.

IMHO it does an excellent job of positioning the trigger finger, and since it's an AR grip, it fits most chassis, as well.

Greg

kswaterfowl · Dec 8, 2020

I don't know how I missed this thread. But I have been thinking about this for a long time. I thought maybe I was the only guy with short ninja turtle fingers that struggled to get a comfortable hand position on stocks. I'm glad I'm not the only one that has this problem.

carbonbased · Mar 28, 2022

Steel head said:
I’ve always wondered that as well.

I know this thread is a little old, but I too wonder what the hump is for. Can one put an Arca plate there?

On the ballhead, I like to balance my rifles at that spot…tends to not need as much tension on the ballhead and lowers the chance the rifle accidentally falling backwards.

Underneath pics would be cool.

Guns&WhiteWater · Mar 28, 2022

carbonbased said:
I know this thread is a little old, but I too wonder what the hump is for. Can one put an Arca plate there?

On the ballhead, I like to balance my rifles at that spot…tends to not need as much tension on the ballhead and lowers the chance the rifle accidentally falling backwards.

Underneath pics would be cool.

From what I understand, I believe the hump is for greater strength in this area of the stock.

Carlos0311B4 · Dec 13, 2024

Odysseus1911 said:
Asked this question previously and no hits. Trying again with lots of pictures and less words.

Virtually all handguns position the firing hand fingers an inch or less behind the trigger. . .

like my .45 here.
View attachment 7214183

Many precision rifle stocks also position the fingers of the firing hand very close to the trigger to facilitate a short, straight, and un-strained trigger pull. . .

like this drop dead gorgeous Anschutz 1927 CISM
View attachment 7214185

or this Doan Trevor Palma stock
View attachment 7214186

Some of the most widely respected sniper rifles have adopted these ergonomics. . .
View attachment 7214188
View attachment 7214184

My question is this: Why do Manners, McMillan, HS Precision, Bell & Carlson, etc. make their precision rifle stocks with the grip so far behind the trigger?

like this Manners PRS-1 as an example
View attachment 7214187

Is it just something that got carried over from making sporter stocks for hunting rifles? Is it designed for a different type of shooting? I mean look at the grip on this sporter. It's a country mile behind the trigger. That can't be good for consistent shot placement because your hand has to float, right?
View attachment 7214189

Yup! Annoying as all hell! Asked stock makers this a while back. Never really got a good answer.

wind gypsy · Dec 13, 2024

Carlos0311B4 said:
Yup! Annoying as all hell! Asked stock makers this a while back. Never really got a good answer.

Because:

That's how everyone else makes stocks.. Micky made the A5 and we should all copy the grip (sarcasm)
Many hunters and people who dont shoot only know what a traditional sporter stock feels like and they think that's how it should be.
1. "Vertical grips are good for prone but i dont shoot prone while hunting"
2. Dudes who dont shoot focus more on what the trigger hand feels like lifting the gun to shoulder than what their firing hand is going to feel like trying to make a good trigger press.
3. "It looks too tactical"

The actual precision, competition oriented stocks have no excuse. Not sure why they shit the bed on it for so long.

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