As a relative rookie, just curious as to what more experienced and accomplished shooters do. I do know that after making adjustments of pretty much any kind it’s a good idea. What about something like a deep cleaning or an unusually sub par day at the range?
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How Often and Under What Circumstances To Check Zero?
- Thread starter Turkeytider
- Start date
I generally zero to start the day. It’s much easier to burn 3-5 rounds to make sure the rest of the session goes accordingly.
Nothing pisses me off more than to have issues missing and then 30-40 rounds later realize I was a tenth or two high in zero.
Nothing pisses me off more than to have issues missing and then 30-40 rounds later realize I was a tenth or two high in zero.
Pretty much never unless I use a different load or the temperature changes noticeably
I generally "warm up" for each range session by shooting, at the very least, 3 shots at 100 to verify zero.
For a match, check before.
I mostly hunt. Reasons I check zero:
Travel to a different altitude/distant location. (Eg Louisiana to CO for elk or prairie dogs)
Rifle is dropped/bumped.
A missed shot on a decent sized target that should have been a hit. (Deer)
Start of the hunting season.
I mostly hunt. Reasons I check zero:
Travel to a different altitude/distant location. (Eg Louisiana to CO for elk or prairie dogs)
Rifle is dropped/bumped.
A missed shot on a decent sized target that should have been a hit. (Deer)
Start of the hunting season.
When I clean a rifle, I put a piece of painters’ tape on the stock, noting the date the rifle was cleaned. This is a reminder to confirm zero before using it for anything “important.” I’ve also started to do the same thing with the date and what load the rifle was zeroed with.
I confirm zero at the beginning of a match. They set up the zero confirmation range, might as well use it. I confirm zero at the beginning of hunting season. And, I’ll confirm zero if anything odd happens (like a rifle cart-wheeling out of a pickup).
I confirm zero at the beginning of a match. They set up the zero confirmation range, might as well use it. I confirm zero at the beginning of hunting season. And, I’ll confirm zero if anything odd happens (like a rifle cart-wheeling out of a pickup).
As a dude who just shoots from the house mostly, please take this with a grain of salt:
Unless I'm trying to kill something, I usually fire a round to test zero before moving on each time I go out. It is also a way to test my cold bore zero, so I do put a bit of weight into it (I do this at 250, 300, 385, and occasionally 650 in addition to just my 100 yard range).
I will also fire a test shot if I hammer my rifle off of something. And I will also fire two shots after a deep cleaning, and test zero on the third.
It is not a bad practice to shoot a single round to confirm, where the alternative is busting a dozen of them in chasing your tail/zero.
Unless I'm trying to kill something, I usually fire a round to test zero before moving on each time I go out. It is also a way to test my cold bore zero, so I do put a bit of weight into it (I do this at 250, 300, 385, and occasionally 650 in addition to just my 100 yard range).
I will also fire a test shot if I hammer my rifle off of something. And I will also fire two shots after a deep cleaning, and test zero on the third.
It is not a bad practice to shoot a single round to confirm, where the alternative is busting a dozen of them in chasing your tail/zero.
Every time. I have caught myself more than once not returning my rifles scope to zero! So this saves some cuss words and ammo when I'm way off!
Would the shift be due to a change of ammo?
Wouldn't the temp/altitude difference have to be from sea level to 15,000+ feet or something to make a difference to a 100 yard zero? And what's the minimum bump the rifle has to take to make you check zero?
I'm really curious about this topic since I had a zero shift somewhere during travel to an antelope hunt in October. It was a 0.3 MIL shift down with a Razor G3 6-36. So I changed the optic, I'm having the chassis bedded, and will probably switch rings too. To me there's basically nothing that the airline employees could do to a Pelican case that would excuse a zero shift in a rifle setup completely surrounded and immobilized by foam.
manyyyy factors here...and most are being mentioned...
there are multiple inputs to a rifle/optic/shooter zero and how/when they matter depends on the quality of each of those 3 to start
a shooter needs to check it as often as required for them to feel confident in their system
in the real world you have the environmental factors of wind/visual effects added in that can not truly be zero'd for because they change with lighting, mirage, wind changes, etc (atmospherics can also, but those have to be huge changes to really show up much @ 100yds)
if you take a mechanically sound rifle out that had a good zero and dope, and then check your zero in a biased condition from wind/lighting/mirage...it will be off
if you move your zero to satisfy that biased condition, and exit that bias condition back to standard conditions (or move firing positions to where that bias doesnt occur in the same manner), your dope/wind calls will be off...these conditions can change in seconds, minutes, hours...just depends on the type and severity
very basic example: you zero in a 9 o clock 30 mph crosswind (exaggerated for effect) and dont account for it...then turn around and shoot the opposite direction w/ a 3 o clock 30 mph crosswind...your zero will be off, but the zero is not the real issue.
various lighting and mirage conditions can force similar effects
a good shooter knows when its him, when its the rifle, or when its the conditions...and manages their zero around it
there are multiple inputs to a rifle/optic/shooter zero and how/when they matter depends on the quality of each of those 3 to start
a shooter needs to check it as often as required for them to feel confident in their system
in the real world you have the environmental factors of wind/visual effects added in that can not truly be zero'd for because they change with lighting, mirage, wind changes, etc (atmospherics can also, but those have to be huge changes to really show up much @ 100yds)
if you take a mechanically sound rifle out that had a good zero and dope, and then check your zero in a biased condition from wind/lighting/mirage...it will be off
if you move your zero to satisfy that biased condition, and exit that bias condition back to standard conditions (or move firing positions to where that bias doesnt occur in the same manner), your dope/wind calls will be off...these conditions can change in seconds, minutes, hours...just depends on the type and severity
very basic example: you zero in a 9 o clock 30 mph crosswind (exaggerated for effect) and dont account for it...then turn around and shoot the opposite direction w/ a 3 o clock 30 mph crosswind...your zero will be off, but the zero is not the real issue.
various lighting and mirage conditions can force similar effects
a good shooter knows when its him, when its the rifle, or when its the conditions...and manages their zero around it
Before every match if I can. Always after cleaning and for a new load. Anytime I switch between Can and No can switch muzzle device (Yes I do know my offset).
I shoot a weekly match and so I will not check zero every week, but its also an F-class so I get "sighters" to begin with.
I can pull the barrel off and be back within a couple tenths. But I always check if I can (Because I can and will make mistakes, and a non-zero'd rifle is a big red flag something is screwed up--looking at my 300WM and zero changed--turns out I ripped out the front stud for my bidpod and had scope mount loose.
Think of it like a pre-shooting "check"
Do I have ammo
Is my rifle zero'd (aka is it not F'd up)
Do I have my binos
etc....
I shoot a weekly match and so I will not check zero every week, but its also an F-class so I get "sighters" to begin with.
I can pull the barrel off and be back within a couple tenths. But I always check if I can (Because I can and will make mistakes, and a non-zero'd rifle is a big red flag something is screwed up--looking at my 300WM and zero changed--turns out I ripped out the front stud for my bidpod and had scope mount loose.
Think of it like a pre-shooting "check"
Do I have ammo
Is my rifle zero'd (aka is it not F'd up)
Do I have my binos
etc....
Well, I could get my kestrel out and check but the combination of elevation, humidity, altitude, 14 to 24 hours in a truck (4 rifles each not in pelican cases), and the fact that most shots are 250 yards plus on very small baby prairie dogs, I check zero. And I do notice a difference.
As far as bumps, one fell on the scope in a jeep - it was off about 2” vertical. Most drops, like off my shoulder on the soft ground while hauling a deer, don’t move it at all. An outdoor range is provided so very convenient.
For an expensive out of state trip - check zero.
Would I be confident for antelope, deer, elk without zero? Sure. But if a good spot is available, why not check?
Another time is when I take the scope off to use thermal. Normally it goes right back to zero, but again why miss a shot?
I check my zero as often as I can.
For me it lets me know my equipment is solid when I consistently see I maintain zero it’s also confidence to start the day. For matches if I have checked zero multiple times before and seen no issues than it gives me confidence when I may be unable to check prior to the comp.
For me it lets me know my equipment is solid when I consistently see I maintain zero it’s also confidence to start the day. For matches if I have checked zero multiple times before and seen no issues than it gives me confidence when I may be unable to check prior to the comp.
Some of the places I go to shoot necessitate some bumpy, off-road travel. On one such trip, I was on my way out, minding my own business, and driving along a "road" that hadn't been driven on since the rainy season started. The grass was growing at a good pace and made the hills all nice and green. Unfortunately, it also hid a nice-sized mini sink hole. Even though I was only going about 10 mph, it was the roughest "hit" I'd ever taken in the Jeep. Most of the gear in the back hit the roof.
When I got home and got ready to pull the rifles out to clean, I opened the bag for my 300 and wondered, "why is my rifle upside down in the rifle bag?"
In short, I like to zero whenever I travel off of paved/gravel roads.
When I got home and got ready to pull the rifles out to clean, I opened the bag for my 300 and wondered, "why is my rifle upside down in the rifle bag?"
In short, I like to zero whenever I travel off of paved/gravel roads.
So for the lighting part of that, is that still the case even if you use a sun shade on your scope?
Can be
I’ve seen it from cloud cover moving thru on shooter vs targets
Or sun behind the shooter where a shade wouldnt help
Lighting and mirage kinda work together depending on how they interact, can really Throw a wrench in things sometimes…but in these cases there wasnt much mirage visible to indicate anything
When one considers all the myriad things that can impact the flight of a bullet from point A to point B, sometimes I’m amazed that we can hit ANYTHING!
Everytime I go to the range. I don’t want to throw rounds down without knowing what to expect that day. I check before every match for the same reason. There’s a sense of comfort knowing she’s printing tight groups before a match.
Shooting is fun. If I am hunting in the evening, I will often swing by camp and shoot 8-10 rounds.
Morning hunts I just go hunt. I shoot my hunting rifles weekly at the range (shooting is fun) so I usually catch zero shifts.
Morning hunts I just go hunt. I shoot my hunting rifles weekly at the range (shooting is fun) so I usually catch zero shifts.
When it matters what I'm shooting at. I'll always check before a hunt. Or after a deep cleaning when I break my rifle all the way down.
At the start of every shooting session, I shoot a 50 yard (rimfire) and for centerfire, 300, 400, 500, 700 and 800 yard shots to verify sight settings, watching carefully where the rounds hit. Why, 300. Even at our local range there are 300 yard steel targets, large and small. I watch the hits very carefully to assure they are well centered. Why not 100? it’s a Pain to set up a target at any of the ranges I shoot to see a hit at 100. Finally It’s been a habit.
Checking further than 300, it’s a good time to check wind holds as well.
Finally, Finally I hate shooting paper, so darned boring. If all’s I wanted to do was punch holes in perfectly good sheets of paper, I would stay home and buy a hole puncher.
Checking further than 300, it’s a good time to check wind holds as well.
Finally, Finally I hate shooting paper, so darned boring. If all’s I wanted to do was punch holes in perfectly good sheets of paper, I would stay home and buy a hole puncher.
+1 Another consideration having a 100% RTZ optic.
Absolutely critical for maintaining sanity...
(But ofc some people may disagree...)
Absolutely critical for maintaining sanity...
(But ofc some people may disagree...)
They don't talk about zero retention and durability much on this forum, it's all glass quality and features per $. I'd like to see the conversation change over time.
Personally, I want my optics to be as reliable and accurate as the rifle I put them on. There can be no weak links in the system.
Zero retention, rtz and tracking are #1 and ought to be #1 in everyone's list.+1 Another consideration having a 100% RTZ optic.
Absolutely critical for maintaining sanity...
(But ofc some people may disagree...)
it used to be talked about more, there were entire threads for tracking testing and RTZ...people could send their optic to the tester who ran the thread even
but my scope tracking and holding zero doesnt mean anything for anyone else with the same optic...each user needs to test their own scope
plus how/what they are mounted with and how those mounts/rails interact matters just as much if not more than the scope
ive bought "broken" scopes that wouldnt track or hold zero off people and then put them on my rifle and won the next match with them so discussing optic durability is hard to do on a large scale IMO
even more surprising is the number of people who pay $2k+ for an optic and have issues with it because they dont know how to set the turrets, adjust the zero stop, etc...
cost, features, and glass are low hanging fruit
but my scope tracking and holding zero doesnt mean anything for anyone else with the same optic...each user needs to test their own scope
plus how/what they are mounted with and how those mounts/rails interact matters just as much if not more than the scope
ive bought "broken" scopes that wouldnt track or hold zero off people and then put them on my rifle and won the next match with them so discussing optic durability is hard to do on a large scale IMO
even more surprising is the number of people who pay $2k+ for an optic and have issues with it because they dont know how to set the turrets, adjust the zero stop, etc...
cost, features, and glass are low hanging fruit
also to add...
tracking and RTZ are non negotiable in my book
if my personal scopes dont do those 2 better than my ability to test/verify them...they arent useful and none of the other features or cost matters after that lol
tracking and RTZ are non negotiable in my book
if my personal scopes dont do those 2 better than my ability to test/verify them...they arent useful and none of the other features or cost matters after that lol
For clarification (I might have my terms mixed up) by RTZ do you mean ability to retain zero or the scope just tracking back to the original zero when dialed back down?
im meaning "return" in this case with RTZ in reference to the optic alone
but in a rifle system, both returning and retaining carry equal weight...returning to zero can be a test of the optic itself...
retaining zero requires the mounts and rifle to not throw a wrench into things...mounts cant shift on rails, rails cant loosen/shift (if not integral), rifle cant shift in stock/chassis...none of those are the fault of the optic
you can test optic tracking and return to zero on a jig completely separate from the rifle...retaining is a test of the whole system
on a really well mated rifle system you can take anything that indexes apart and put it back to together and the zero will still be good...
barrel off
rings off rail (need to leave the rings on the scope because round scope body is nothing to really index off of)
action out of stock
^^**Disclaimer: i havent seen many components, even the high end ones that can do this right out of the box and just bolted together...some can/will, but not most
reassemble and it should be good to go...if it moves any amount outside of the shooters ability to repeat himself, there is something in that system than can shift if it sees a force hard enough in the right spot...just a matter of time
but in a rifle system, both returning and retaining carry equal weight...returning to zero can be a test of the optic itself...
retaining zero requires the mounts and rifle to not throw a wrench into things...mounts cant shift on rails, rails cant loosen/shift (if not integral), rifle cant shift in stock/chassis...none of those are the fault of the optic
you can test optic tracking and return to zero on a jig completely separate from the rifle...retaining is a test of the whole system
on a really well mated rifle system you can take anything that indexes apart and put it back to together and the zero will still be good...
barrel off
rings off rail (need to leave the rings on the scope because round scope body is nothing to really index off of)
action out of stock
^^**Disclaimer: i havent seen many components, even the high end ones that can do this right out of the box and just bolted together...some can/will, but not most
reassemble and it should be good to go...if it moves any amount outside of the shooters ability to repeat himself, there is something in that system than can shift if it sees a force hard enough in the right spot...just a matter of time
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one of the biggest headaches a scope gave me was it would track perfect dialing counter clockwise, but would come up .2-.3ish mils short dialing clockwise, unless you over shot your mark and dialed back counter clockwise
i thought i noticed something at the end of a match, kind of ignored it, then it showed up in the next match...pulled the scope and put it in a jig to confirm
if i dialed from 0 to 2, 3, 5,10 mil etc, it was spot on...if i dialed from 10 to 5, it would actually end up around 5.2, unless i clicked to 4.9 then back to 5...then it would be spot on. same thing would repeat dialing from 5 to 3 or 2...did it every where.
the zero would also come up about .2 short unless i over shot it and then came back
in the couple matches where the issue showed up, depending on the stage design, the scope would work perfect if it was only targets from near to far...soon as a target would require far to near, id miss high if the target was small enough...really had me scratching my head before i put it on the jig...i could have also shot a tracking test up and down, but it worked more often than not because most stages are set up for near to far that i kept doubting it was the optics fault lol
i thought i noticed something at the end of a match, kind of ignored it, then it showed up in the next match...pulled the scope and put it in a jig to confirm
if i dialed from 0 to 2, 3, 5,10 mil etc, it was spot on...if i dialed from 10 to 5, it would actually end up around 5.2, unless i clicked to 4.9 then back to 5...then it would be spot on. same thing would repeat dialing from 5 to 3 or 2...did it every where.
the zero would also come up about .2 short unless i over shot it and then came back
in the couple matches where the issue showed up, depending on the stage design, the scope would work perfect if it was only targets from near to far...soon as a target would require far to near, id miss high if the target was small enough...really had me scratching my head before i put it on the jig...i could have also shot a tracking test up and down, but it worked more often than not because most stages are set up for near to far that i kept doubting it was the optics fault lol
Here's a quick tip:
Max out your elevation turret and take note of how many clicks/mils/MOA you have and write it down in your data book. Do the same with your windage turret.
If you ever encounter a situation where you completely lose your zero, say your scope malfunctions and the turret or zero stop slips or you send it in for servicing you can get it back quite close to your zero. Also you will have your max elevation recorded so if you are in a match or other extreme range situation you will know in advance if you can dial for a given distance.
Max out your elevation turret and take note of how many clicks/mils/MOA you have and write it down in your data book. Do the same with your windage turret.
If you ever encounter a situation where you completely lose your zero, say your scope malfunctions and the turret or zero stop slips or you send it in for servicing you can get it back quite close to your zero. Also you will have your max elevation recorded so if you are in a match or other extreme range situation you will know in advance if you can dial for a given distance.
When I zero, I zero at 300yds.... still using a 100yd base ballistically. It leaves not doubt which .1 mrad/ 1" turret setting you need to be on. And when shooting a match, you never need to shoot 100yds but you will often shoot some small targets around 300. I care more about my data being true from 300 to 1200 than a 100yd zero. I just use a 100yd zero ballistically in the calculator.
I may check zero during random range sessions sometimes but I generally don't zero and slip my turrets very often. If I was constantly rezeroing every other range session or morning of a match, I would have serious concerns about my scope, rifle, or abilities. I'm not saying that in a bragging sort of way. It just doesn't bode well for performance if you're losing zero that much. If I check zero before a match and I'm not POI/ POA I'm more immediately suspect of my position. I really don't like slipping my turret right before a match.
Maintaining a zero is a blend of mechanical soundness from your optic and rifle and shooters ability and I think one of the less obvious basic skills that should never be taken for granted is the shooters ability to shoot their zero in a variety of positions. I think a lot of folks think that after progressing past novice level they have basic marksmanship fundamentals mastered. But I think marksmanship fundamentals are one of those things that you constantly revisit and find new depth to try to master as you progress. And being able to shoot your mechanical zero in all kinds of environments and positions is what separates really good shooters from guys that have figured out how to shop for rifle components, free recoil, and buy Berger bullets. I know when I'm doing well with a rifle and load when I haven't rezeroed or changed my profile in several months and haven't had issues with elevational misses at matches.
I may check zero during random range sessions sometimes but I generally don't zero and slip my turrets very often. If I was constantly rezeroing every other range session or morning of a match, I would have serious concerns about my scope, rifle, or abilities. I'm not saying that in a bragging sort of way. It just doesn't bode well for performance if you're losing zero that much. If I check zero before a match and I'm not POI/ POA I'm more immediately suspect of my position. I really don't like slipping my turret right before a match.
Maintaining a zero is a blend of mechanical soundness from your optic and rifle and shooters ability and I think one of the less obvious basic skills that should never be taken for granted is the shooters ability to shoot their zero in a variety of positions. I think a lot of folks think that after progressing past novice level they have basic marksmanship fundamentals mastered. But I think marksmanship fundamentals are one of those things that you constantly revisit and find new depth to try to master as you progress. And being able to shoot your mechanical zero in all kinds of environments and positions is what separates really good shooters from guys that have figured out how to shop for rifle components, free recoil, and buy Berger bullets. I know when I'm doing well with a rifle and load when I haven't rezeroed or changed my profile in several months and haven't had issues with elevational misses at matches.
As the OP, and to be a bit off subject I suppose, this thread has me wondering just what percentage of Snipers Hide posters and readers are active in competition (?). It’s always been obvious, at least it seems to me, that the vast majority here are very serious, long term rifle shooters, many if not most with extensive investments in high dollar custom equipment. Most definitely NOT the “ average Joe” recreational shooter, hunter, and range denizen such as yours truly!
i was very active for about 8 yrs...then i switched to bows and bow hunting and only pick up a rifle about once every year now for a random local comp to make sure i still got a lil somethin left lol
My 45 year old shootin iron gets/got checked before every hunt and/or a change of ammo type and sometimes a range visit if some of the guys were going to the hunting club to play . After 10 rounds of 300 win mag its zeroed or jus close enough then i pull out the AK's and dump 2/3 hundred rounds .....into anything lookin iffy lol
average guy here too but i sometimes threaten the deer with " its a 300 winmag" ........some just drop then rather than run n die tired
That gave me a chuckle.
I remember a short while ago when burying handguns in mud, dropping them onto concrete, and all other kinds of semi-destructive activities for testing was all the rage.
I would love to see someone take a hundred rounds or so and do every crazy thing they could think of to a quality scope and rings and carefully record any shift in zero. Hit it with a mallet, loosen/remove one ring, loosen/remove one ring and hit it with a mallet, put a C-clamp on it pulling the objective housing down, heat it up, pour liquid nitrogen on it.
Maybe MDT could do it. They're always doing weird tests for their videos.
Torture tests are great but for most guns they are go/no-go type tests to see if they work. For precision work/zero shifts I would like to see a bit more calculated/measured testing where the zero is carefully rechecked after each stage, preferably with tests that simulate real issues like dropping rifles, screws coming loose, driving down bumpy roads, or force/pressure being applied to components.
As much as needed. I always crack one shot off when I go to the hunting camp and if I’m there’s an altitude or big temp shift I pull out the garmin. Having a good zero and speed is the difference in coming home with the trophy elk or deer that Murphy will put in front of you the one day when your not prepared.
