SAC sizer die setup?

bbowles · Wednesday at 7:50 PM

Have a question on my new sac sizing die. Got it setup like the sac sizing die setup video says. Got the decapping expander mandrel in it with a .288 bushing for my 6.5 Creedmoor. The bushing edge (facing the decapping end) is lined up about even with the top end of the expander section (closest to top of die). It sizes with extremely good neck runout (0.0005 to 0.001). However, the shoulder bump seems inconsistent (ranging from 0.000 to 0.002 bump.
Other question I have is it drags pretty hard as the brass is coming back thru the mandrel. It is not smooth. It is jerky and almost squeaks. I use plenty of Imperial Die wax inside and outside neck and on body.
Got suggestions for me?

spife7980 · Wednesday at 8:04 PM

Provide actual fired vs sized measurements of the neck shoulder and body diameters and headspace set back.

Also, use more lube.

bbowles · Wednesday at 8:18 PM

Once fired brass.
Fired headspace 1.499 with Sinclair comparator. Sized 1.497 but some are still 1.499.
Fired neck 2.951. Sized back to .2894 odd with expander mandrel in sac die. When take expander out od is .2883. Try not too overwork brass. Like have done with Forster honed die for years.
Body just below shoulder. Fired .4632. Sized .4628.
Body at. 200 line... Fired .4702. sized .4698
All measurements with micrometer.
Lube...I have been putting more than ever have done with this die. I can try more but didn't want to cave in brass either. But will do.

bbowles · Wednesday at 8:20 PM

Once fired brass.
Fired headspace 1.499 with Sinclair comparator. Sized 1.497 but some are still 1.499.
Fired neck 2.951. Sized back to .2894 odd with expander mandrel in sac die. When take expander out od is .2883. Try not too overwork brass. Like have done with Forster honed die for years.
Body just below shoulder. Fired .4632. Sized .4628.
Body at. 200 line... Fired .4702. sized .4698

Lube...I have been putting more than ever have done with this die. I can try more but didn't want to cave in brass either. But will do

spife7980 · Wednesday at 8:55 PM

Heck, that all looks great. One of the few times that’s ever happened, someone having an issue and having taken actual measurements.
Shoulder diameters a bit tight back in the chamber but smaller so doubtful that’s it.

Annealing schedule? What’s this brasses prior life to this die like?

ST1TCH · Wednesday at 8:58 PM

bbowles said:
However, the shoulder bump seems inconsistent (ranging from 0.000 to 0.002 bump.

Annealing or no? Might try a small amount of dwell time while the casing sits in the die to see if that moves the needle at all there.
If it's jerky on the upstroke, I suppose it's possible that might pull on the shoulder but I'm not sure how much that would affect bump.

And lube, like spife mentions.

bbowles · Wednesday at 8:59 PM

Lapua once fired. Sized with same sac when was Virgin brass. I anneal every firing. Annealed right before the sizing with AMP.

ST1TCH · Wednesday at 9:03 PM

bbowles said:
Lapua once fired. Sized with same sac when was Virgin brass. I anneal every firing. Annealed right before the sizing with AMP.

Definitely wouldn’t recommend full length sizing virgin brass, neck mandrel only IMO before first firing.

But I don’t think that was your issue here.

bbowles · Wednesday at 9:07 PM

ST1TCH said:
Definitely wouldn’t recommend full length sizing virgin brass, neck mandrel only IMO before first firing.

But I don’t think that was your issue here.

Have always ran my virgin brass thru a FL sizing die. Since Virgin brass is not formed it only gets the neck sized anyway. Just curious why that would ever be a problem?

bbowles · Wednesday at 9:19 PM

Really like to hear from people as to how they set up the die. I simply ran ran up til contact shellholder and lock down due. I put 3 .025 shims on top which put the bushing even with the top part of expander (the top being the part towards the top of die). I sized with this die when was Virgin brass and was jerky going thru the die but assumed that was due to clean, new neck walls which is common. Expected this to change after brass was fired and had some carbon inside neck. I tumble with rice.
I also added the .001 shims between the bushing and taper adapter to get some bump. I also used a +.002 Area 419 shellholder to get bump. This is same shellholder I use with Forster die.

ST1TCH · Wednesday at 9:19 PM

bbowles said:
Have always ran my virgin brass thru a FL sizing die. Since Virgin brass is not formed it only gets the neck sized anyway. Just curious why that would ever be a problem?

Just generally no need to FL size virgin cases, you want the case to fully fire form to your chamber which it’ll do regardless of FL sizing or not, just less working of the brass that way.

That’s the explanation I’ve gotten before, anyway. You aren’t going to ruin them, and certainly shouldn’t cause these issues.

ST1TCH · Wednesday at 9:25 PM

bbowles said:
I put 3 .025 shims on top

FWIW I have none of the .025” shims on top of my SAC modular sizing die and don’t have issues. Mine is for 6mm dasher though

bbowles · Wednesday at 9:29 PM

Guess my question is where exactly is the bushing edge in relation to the expander mandrel portion?
Have heard 6 Dasher typically uses no bushings.

avidflyer · Wednesday at 10:12 PM

Had the same issue with my setup. About half or perfect other half couple thou off. I think its the mandrel pulling back through. Try a larger bushing if you have it, should have less pull coming back through. I went to a 2k smaller bushing than fired and it helped.

Vivacious Stallion · Thursday at 1:34 AM

Just my experience - I am running 2 SAC dies a Creedmoor with a .288" bushing and .2630" decapping mandrel and a GT with a .266" bushing and .2410" mandrel. I've probably put 5000 cases through the Creedmoor die and only recently got the GT version for my new prs build.

I use a light spray of Hornady one shot case lube pointed at the neck and shoulder. I have gotten very consistent .0002-3 bump when I have measured, but honestly I generally don't bother. I do not use any shims, but do have a slight cam over from how I finally set it up. With that lube process I have never experienced noise from the mandrel or inconsistent/excessive force, but you can feel it pass through the die on the way out. Before sizing, I decap, ultrasonic clean/dry, zap them with the AMP and then lube for sizing.

Your experience would sound to me like a lube issue, but you seem to already be on top of that. Do you have the correct length mandrel? If you mistakenly had a too short one it could possibly be in conflict with the bushing I suppose.

WasNH4X · Thursday at 7:09 AM

bbowles said:
. The bushing edge (facing the decapping end) is lined up about even with the top end of the expander section (closest to top of die).

What is being described above..............I'm seeing in my mind, the conflict / problem.

I wouldn't want my necks to be engaging the mandrel until after the case mouth has existed the bushing..........preferably right at the moment the case mouth exists the bushing.

I may be picturing it wrong ,by the description......... If so........I got nothing ,but needs more imperial wax . If it squeaks ,do some polishing / add more lube.........I never cared for a " dry hole".............

OREGUN · Thursday at 8:50 AM

I have a few thoughts given my experience with the SAC product.
First, call SAC and see what they say.

I’ve never had as much trouble setting up a sizing die as I do with the SAC sizing/decapping/mandrelling die. It’s a pain in the ass unrivaled by any other die I’ve used.

I finally gave up on trying to make the shims do anything consistent. I don’t use any now. Either the .025 or the .001.
How tightly you screw on the top cap seems to affect my sizing more than the shims do anyways. I highly recommend marking that cap and the die body and screwing it to the exact same tension/place every time. Set up exactly like you would any other die. By screwing it in or out of the press to adjust depth. Or you can use your shell holders if that works for you.

I can change my shoulder bump by a few thousands, either direction by changing the amount I lube the cases. All these recommendations for more lube miss the mark in my opinion. A small amount of lube in the right places (neck inside and out and the base or bottom 1/3rd of the case), applied consistently from case to case will be critical in getting a consistent result. ESPECIALLY WITH A LUBE AS THICK AS IMPERIAL DIE WAX. It’s a great lube but a little goes a LONG way.

I suspect you have some interference between the bushing and the mandrel. First, take out all the bushings and see what happens. Make sure you have the correct length mandrel. You can adjust the mandrel depth with the e-clip at the die top, you could try that. Move it down so the expander part is deeper in the case when the neck is engaged in the bushing. Clean the die well.

Other opinions:
You don’t need to worry about overworking your brass since you’re annealing every time.
I too am of the opinion that you do more harm than good by full sizing brand new brass assuming you’re not buying trash brass. One pass over the expander mandrel or nothing at all is all that’s needed for Lapua.
The amp can leave an inconsistent patina on the case neck interior. Consider moving your annealing step to a different place in your process so that your brass has a chance to go through some kind of cleaner or tumbling before you apply lube and put it through the sizing die. I used to anneal immediately before sizing. I have recently switched to annealing first and then tumbling followed by resizing. I get more consistent bullet seating pressures by doing it that way.

JSW2000 · Thursday at 6:09 PM

ST1TCH said:
Definitely wouldn’t recommend full length sizing virgin brass, neck mandrel only IMO before first firing.

But I don’t think that was your issue here.

FL Sizing Virgin brass shouldn't change any dimension other than the neck.

JSW2000 · Thursday at 6:11 PM

bbowles said:
Really like to hear from people as to how they set up the die. I simply ran ran up til contact shellholder and lock down due. I put 3 .025 shims on top which put the bushing even with the top part of expander (the top being the part towards the top of die). I sized with this die when was Virgin brass and was jerky going thru the die but assumed that was due to clean, new neck walls which is common. Expected this to change after brass was fired and had some carbon inside neck. I tumble with rice.
I also added the .001 shims between the bushing and taper adapter to get some bump. I also used a +.002 Area 419 shellholder to get bump. This is same shellholder I use with Forster die.

What press are you using?

bbowles · Thursday at 6:17 PM

Area 419 with their shellholder. Using a +2.

JSW2000 · Thursday at 6:22 PM

bbowles said:
Area 419

How much did you turn the die down once it contacted the shellholder?

bbowles · Thursday at 6:28 PM

JSW2000 said:
How much did you turn the die down once it contacted the shellholder?

Screwed die down until touched shellholder with ram at top. Then I typically leave the die lock ring a little loose and run brass up into die and then lock it down. Usually helps with runout.
Runout is actually about .0005. If I don't run brass into die and lock down it can be a little over. 001 to .0015. Runout is not the issue.
The harsh sizing to the point of brass almost getting stuck in die and squeaking is an issue for me.
The shoulder setback tends to be within a .001 to .002 which I would like to see .001 or less consistently.

JSW2000 · Thursday at 6:36 PM

bbowles said:
Screwed die down until touched shellholder with ram at top. Then I typically leave the die lock ring a little loose and run brass up into die and then lock it down. Usually helps with runout.
Runout is actually about .0005. If I don't run brass into die and lock down it can be a little over. 001 to .0015. Runout is not the issue.
The harsh sizing to the point of brass almost getting stuck in die and squeaking is an issue for me.
The shoulder setback tends to be within a .001 to .002 which I would like to see .001 or less consistently.

On the Zero press you need to screw the die in another 1/4 turn atleast once it has contacted the shellholder. If you have it just touching and then fasten it down there will definitely be a gap between the two when you're sizing. That's probably where the inconsistency is coming from. I don't know about the rough sizing though! I switched to a homemade Isopropyl Alcohol and Liquid lanolin oil sizing lube and it is the smoothest I have ever used. I am curious about the .001" of shoulder bump? That's a tight standard to try and hold.

DairyDictator · Thursday at 6:38 PM

I have used the SAC die on GT and 223 for thousands of cases.

The top of the sizing portion of the mandrel has to be low enough so the brass isn't binding inside the bushing, but high enough that the mandrel engages the ID before the OD of the neck exits the bushing. Contrary to what others have said, this is intentional and should be set up that way to reduce runout in theory.

Possible options from most likely to least likely in my opinion:
1. The mandrel is set too high, binding the brass between the bushing and the carbide mandrel. If you can't go low enough, you may have the wrong length mandrel.
2. You're not getting as much lube on the ID as you think
3. The mandrel and/or bushing is the wrong size. Check mandrel size with a caliper and check brass thickness to determine bushing size
4. The ID of the die body isn't smooth

As for inconsistent headspace, this can come from inconsistent lube (probably not the case in your situation) or the die not having enough preload. They should be screwed in enough to where the die maintains contact with the shell plate through sizing.

bbowles · Thursday at 7:54 PM

Will try all this tonight and tomorrow. Never had so much trouble getting a sizing die to work like I want. I do think it's capable but sure hard to beat the smooth sizing of my Forster honed die.

bbowles · Thursday at 7:56 PM

JSW2000 said:
On the Zero press you need to screw the die in another 1/4 turn atleast once it has contacted the shellholder. If you have it just touching and then fasten it down there will definitely be a gap between the two when you're sizing. That's probably where the inconsistency is coming from. I don't know about the rough sizing though! I switched to a homemade Isopropyl Alcohol and Liquid lanolin oil sizing lube and it is the smoothest I have ever used. I am curious about the .001" of shoulder bump? That's a tight standard to try and hold.

My Forster honed die produces one after another sized within. 001 of each other on my Area 419 or my Redding press. Measured with Sinclair comparator and Mitutoya calipers

bbowles · Thursday at 8:11 PM

JSW2000 said:
On the Zero press you need to screw the die in another 1/4 turn atleast once it has contacted the shellholder. If you have it just touching and then fasten it down there will definitely be a gap between the two when you're sizing. That's probably where the inconsistency is coming from. I don't know about the rough sizing though! I switched to a homemade Isopropyl Alcohol and Liquid lanolin oil sizing lube and it is the smoothest I have ever used. I am curious about the .001" of shoulder bump? That's a tight standard to try and hold.

It's odd they say I'm their video you can adjust headspace thru shims, shellholder or adjusting die in or out of press. I usually setup my sizers as you said. This thing is just a different animal.
Made we want to try a micron or a cortina sizer. Lol. Maybe they are about same.

bbowles · Thursday at 8:34 PM

DairyDictator said:
I have used the SAC die on GT and 223 for thousands of cases.

The top of the sizing portion of the mandrel has to be low enough so the brass isn't binding inside the bushing, but high enough that the mandrel engages the ID before the OD of the neck exits the bushing. Contrary to what others have said, this is intentional and should be set up that way to reduce runout in theory.

Possible options from most likely to least likely in my opinion:
1. The mandrel is set too high, binding the brass between the bushing and the carbide mandrel. If you can't go low enough, you may have the wrong length mandrel.
2. You're not getting as much lube on the ID as you think
3. The mandrel and/or bushing is the wrong size. Check mandrel size with a caliper and check brass thickness to determine bushing size
4. The ID of the die body isn't smooth

As for inconsistent headspace, this can come from inconsistent lube (probably not the case in your situation) or the die not having enough preload. They should be screwed in enough to where the die maintains contact with the shell plate through sizing.

Can u send me a pic of where it needs to be?

JSW2000 · Thursday at 8:34 PM

bbowles said:
It's odd they say I'm their video you can adjust headspace thru shims, shellholder or adjusting die in or out of press. I usually setup my sizers as you said. This thing is just a different animal.
Made we want to try a micron or a cortina sizer. Lol. Maybe they are about same.

If you want the ultimate in headspace adjustabilitity get a Area 419 M-Series die. Expensive but the consistency and ease of use is incredible.

DairyDictator · Thursday at 8:38 PM

bbowles said:
Can u send me a pic of where it needs to be?

I'm running 419 dies now and just sold my SAC dies.

When you pull the cap and collet assembly and stack them up outside the die, you should be able to look in the bushing and see a .125" ish gap between the neck-shoulder junction part of the bushing and the top of the sizing part of the mandrel. Please forgive the crude drawing but this is what you're looking for where the black ink is the bushing and red is the mandrel.

bbowles · Thursday at 8:45 PM

I did the opposite. I ran Forster honed dies for years. Tried Area 419 die few months ago. Yes it is nice but I hated that it sized excessively the neck down only to expand it back up. Just hated that. Worked well though.

JSW2000 · Thursday at 8:46 PM

bbowles said:
I did the opposite. I ran Forster honed dies for years. Tried Area 419 die few months ago. Yes it is nice but I hated that it sized excessively the neck down only to expand it back up. Just hated that. Worked well though.

Fair enough! If you anneal every firing the little bit of overworking shouldn't effect it that much though.

bbowles · Thursday at 8:49 PM

I do anneal every firing on an Amp. Just was a mindset that I hated. Anyone have any experience with cortina or micron dies? I have a Micron seater and it's very nice. However, I think I like the SAC Infinity better. But their both nice.

DairyDictator · Thursday at 8:52 PM

bbowles said:
I did the opposite. I ran Forster honed dies for years. Tried Area 419 die few months ago. Yes it is nice but I hated that it sized excessively the neck down only to expand it back up. Just hated that. Worked well though.

The SAC does the same thing the Forster dies do, but the bushing replaces honing the neck and the mandrel replaces your expander ball.

bbowles · Thursday at 8:57 PM

I get that. It's just not working even close to as nice yet. Hopefully, I have the patience to make it work. Otherwise, may try a simpler system like Cortina or Micron. Really like the thought of the bushings with shoulder built in though

bbowles · Thursday at 9:04 PM

DairyDictator said:
I'm running 419 dies now and just sold my SAC dies.

When you pull the cap and collet assembly and stack them up outside the die, you should be able to look in the bushing and see a .125" ish gap between the neck-shoulder junction part of the bushing and the top of the sizing part of the mandrel. Please forgive the crude drawing but this is what you're looking for where the black ink is the bushing and red is the mandrel.

View attachment 8573295

Outer edge of my bushing is .080 from start of mandrel. The shoulder/neck junction of bushing is .114 to outer edge of bushing. Therefore, it is .194 from where neck starts in bushing to mandrel. This is without any shims at all. I tried 0,1,2 and 3 .025 shims. No luck with any setup. Rough sizing no matter what.

bbowles · Thursday at 9:41 PM

DairyDictator said:
I'm running 419 dies now and just sold my SAC dies.

When you pull the cap and collet assembly and stack them up outside the die, you should be able to look in the bushing and see a .125" ish gap between the neck-shoulder junction part of the bushing and the top of the sizing part of the mandrel. Please forgive the crude drawing but this is what you're looking for where the black ink is the bushing and red is the mandrel.

View attachment 8573295

Ok.

DairyDictator said:
I have used the SAC die on GT and 223 for thousands of cases.

The top of the sizing portion of the mandrel has to be low enough so the brass isn't binding inside the bushing, but high enough that the mandrel engages the ID before the OD of the neck exits the bushing. Contrary to what others have said, this is intentional and should be set up that way to reduce runout in theory.

Possible options from most likely to least likely in my opinion:
1. The mandrel is set too high, binding the brass between the bushing and the carbide mandrel. If you can't go low enough, you may have the wrong length mandrel.
2. You're not getting as much lube on the ID as you think
3. The mandrel and/or bushing is the wrong size. Check mandrel size with a caliper and check brass thickness to determine bushing size
4. The ID of the die body isn't smooth

As for inconsistent headspace, this can come from inconsistent lube (probably not the case in your situation) or the die not having enough preload. They should be screwed in enough to where the die maintains contact with the shell plate through sizing.

Ok. So I went back to no shims at all. Have been there before. However, your suggestion of running die 1/4 in past first contact with shellholder worked. It actually made the sizing process MUCH smoother. It is very touchy as to exactly how much past touching to set headspace but think I am there. .002 under fired. Seems pretty consistent also with .0005 to .001 neck runout average.
Think this will work. I have 50 pieces of once fired Lapua brass that has been sized every which way but loose. Lol. I bet it will still shoot awesome. My Moon Roberts rifles seem to shoot anything but a backwards seated bullet well. Lol.
Can't say I am ecstatic about this die but maybe will like it more as I experiment.
REALLY APPRECIATE you guys leading me to a fix! Merry Christmas to you all!

DairyDictator · Thursday at 9:45 PM

bbowles said:
Ok.

Ok. So I went back to no shims at all. Have been there before. However, your suggestion of running die 1/4 in past first contact with shellholder worked. It actually made the sizing process MUCH smoother. It is very touchy as to exactly how much past touching to set headspace but think I am there. .002 under fired. Seems pretty consistent also with .0005 to .001 neck runout average.
Think this will work. I have 50 pieces of once fired Lapua brass that has been sized every which way but loose. Lol. I bet it will still shoot awesome. My Moon Roberts rifles seem to shoot anything but a backwards seated bullet well. Lol.
Can't say I am ecstatic about this die but maybe will like it more as I experiment.
REALLY APPRECIATE you guys leading me to a fix! Merry Christmas to you all!

The die should be threaded in until it sizes consistently, then adjust the headspace from there using the 419 shell holder inserts and .001 shims on top of the die bushing as necessary.

bbowles · Thursday at 9:47 PM

Appreciate it again.

HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur · Saturday at 3:38 PM

Could you take the expander out and see if the problem goes away? That would at least tell you if it is the problem.

I run a separate mandrel die and just use the decapper in my SAC die

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SAC sizer die setup?

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