Shortening .22 Rifle Barrel...Any Down Side?

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-22T19:38:56-0500

I'm afraid I'm going to start an argument, but anyway...is there any good reason not to shorten a Savage A22 from 22 inches to 16.25 and thread it for a silencer?

My understanding is that velocity pretty much tops out at around 16", so it's not clear what the other 6 inches are for. Shortening the barrel would compensate for the added length of the can, and it would make the barrel more rigid, possibly improving the accuracy a little.

I have read that a long sight radius gives better accuracy, but it kind of sounds like a load to me. When I use a scope, the sight radius is only a few inches, and I get better accuracy than I would with iron sights. The scope can't tell a short rifle from a long one. It will work on either.

Seems to me the problem is fat sights combined with a short sight radius. Fat open sights are harder to use accurately, at least for me. Seems to me I could change the open sights to compensate for a short barrel. And I probably wouldn't use them anyway.

I am trying to be better about killing squirrels in my yard. They have cost me a fortune, and it's time to take the gloves off. I plan to kill them whenever I get the chance, and it would be nice to do it without ear muffs or a 4-foot-long rifle.

Since this is a cheap gun, I would like to do the work myself, but it looks like it's complicated. I would have to turn between centers because my lathe is so big, and I am not sure how to get the bore concentric with the spindle. I am reading up. Apparently, you can't just shove a live center into the muzzle.

I would also like to reattach the front sight, so I would have to drill and tap two holes in the finished barrel.

FuhQ · 2024-12-22T23:09:29-0500

Go for it. No reason I could argue against cutting one to 16.25" and threading for a can. Anything that gets more folks shooting suppressed, I'm all about it.

Also, CCI SV will probably be your best bet on ammo for range plinking, although I've killed plenty of squirrels dead with 1 shot with them. You could always be damn-sure and get the CCI Fragmenting HP ammo that's 1050 FPS. You're still subsonic, just got an expanding copper bullet now. They're about double the price of SV, but they work REALLY well. I use the SV for practice and range, and the FHP for squirrels and critter control.

CCI Standard Velocity 22LR Ammo 40 Grain Round Nose Box of 500 (10

CCI is known in the shooting sports industry for having reliable ammunition that delivers exceptional performance time and time again.CCI Standard...

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CCI Quiet 22LR Ammo 40 Grain Fragmenting Hollow Point Box of 500 (10

CCI is known for making some of the best rimfire ammunition on the market. Quiet-22 ammunition is no exception. This quiet round produces a report that...

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hafejd30 · 2024-12-22T23:12:21-0500

No reason to not shorten it. My 16” tikka keeps subsonic ammo subsonic all the time where my 18” Bergara flirts with supersonic and introduces the supersonic crack from time to time

SK ammo LR and Match

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-22T23:12:33-0500

So I shouldn't expect weird things to happen because of the short barrel and keeping the same twist rate? Or anything else I'm too ignorant to expect?

littlepod · 2024-12-22T23:15:18-0500

The crown / threads at the end are probably the most critical thing to get right. You screw that up and your savage now will start shooting like a shotgun. Chopping it down is fine, it's mainly making sure you do it right.

hafejd30 · 2024-12-22T23:16:25-0500

Buck Wilde said:
So I shouldn't expect weird things to happen because of the short barrel and keeping the same twist rate? Or anything else I'm too ignorant to expect?

Anytime you mess with a barrel it’s like messing with a tuning fork. If it shoots exceptionally well then my rule is go another route.

If it shoots average then chop it and hope it shoots as well or better.

Longer .22 barrels tend to favor to accuracy. Where shorter .22 barrels tend to give up potential accuracy for suppression. Of course that’s not always the case with accuracy.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-22T23:40:10-0500

The crown should be the easy part. Threading always makes me nervous. I can always practice on a piece of scrap steel.

FuhQ · 2024-12-23T00:03:37-0500

Buck Wilde said:
So I shouldn't expect weird things to happen because of the short barrel and keeping the same twist rate? Or anything else I'm too ignorant to expect?

Like was stated, the quality of the job, and making sure the crown and muzzle threads are 100% true are going to be the most important thing. Also, shorter barrels are structurally stiffer, by design, therefore you will get less whip, and it will be less susceptible to harmonics throwing it off. From my experiences, shortening a barrel, has almost always led to BETTER groups, thanks to the added stiffness of the barrel being shorter.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T00:06:03-0500

This is all great information. Thanks, everyone.

I don't suppose anyone would know whether a test indicator with a 1.5" probe is long enough to indicate the bore for threading. I see people say they use a 2.75" probe, but I can't see buying a $470 indicator for a $250 rifle.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T00:11:21-0500

Seems to me that a 1.5" probe should be fine, because the bullet's direction is completely determined by what happens in the final half-inch of the barrel. If the last half-inch is aligned with the silencer and concentric with it, I don't see how the bullet could hit a baffle.

264win · 2024-12-23T00:12:49-0500

Definitely shorten that barrel.
One suggestion would be if you aren’t 100% confident in what you are doing, cut it .5” longer that your minimum length. That way you have enough barrel to take a second swing just in case.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T00:18:01-0500

Thanks for the support. I'm not too worried, since a replacement barrel is not expensive. If I succeed, I get a nice modification. If not, the cost of a new one is tuition.

Vodak · 2024-12-23T10:28:24-0500

There’s a risk that the bore isn’t concentric in the barrel. It’s not at all uncommon for it to wander, and if you’re unlucky it might be a little funky to indicate and thread.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T11:46:03-0500

That's why I'm getting an indicator for the bore.

DOA · 2024-12-23T11:57:33-0500

FuhQ said:
Like was stated, the quality of the job, and making sure the crown and muzzle threads are 100% true are going to be the most important thing. Also, shorter barrels are structurally stiffer, by design, therefore you will get less whip, and it will be less susceptible to harmonics throwing it off. From my experiences, shortening a barrel, has almost always led to BETTER groups, thanks to the added stiffness of the barrel being shorter.

If that were the case, precision/sniper rifle barrels would be short. Velocity and wind drift play a role in accuracy down range. The only legitimate reason to shorten a barrel would be to add a suppressor.

grauhanen · 2024-12-23T12:46:20-0500

A Savage barrel may not be any tighter at the muzzle than elsewhere, in which case cutting it shorter won't interfere with that aspect characteristic of some barrels.

hafejd30 said:
No reason to not shorten it. My 16” tikka keeps subsonic ammo subsonic all the time where my 18” Bergara flirts with supersonic and introduces the supersonic crack from time to time

Supersonic .22LR velocities aren't the problem many shooters think they are. Transonic turbulence, which puts accuracy at risk, may occur when supersonic rounds slow down into the transonic range of velocities.

All match ammo for .22LR will be in the transonic range of "speeds" (about 890 fps to 1340 fps) and won't slow down out of it until about 150 yards. The vast majority of high velocity .22LR ammo remains in the transonic zone a little further.

The reason HV ammo may be less accurate than match ammo is because it is not made to have match ammo round-to-round consistency.

oneshot.onehit · 2024-12-23T12:56:35-0500

grauhanen said:
A Savage barrel may not be any tighter at the muzzle than elsewhere, in which case cutting it shorter won't interfere with that aspect characteristic of some barrels.

Supersonic .22LR velocities aren't the problem many shooters think they are. Transonic turbulence, which puts accuracy at risk, may occur when supersonic rounds slow down into the transonic range of velocities.

All match ammo for .22LR will be in the transonic range of "speeds" (about 890 fps to 1340 fps) and won't slow down out of it until about 150 yards. The vast majority of high velocity .22LR ammo remains in the transonic zone a little further.

The reason HV ammo may be less accurate than match ammo is because it is not made to have match ammo round-to-round consistency.

Have you tested this or is it your theory or hear-say. Just asking I shoot a lot of extreme ELR both centerfire as well as 22LR? I am always open to real data at this level .

Thanks
Jh

hafejd30 · 2024-12-23T13:10:55-0500

grauhanen said:
A Savage barrel may not be any tighter at the muzzle than elsewhere, in which case cutting it shorter won't interfere with that aspect characteristic of some barrels.

Supersonic .22LR velocities aren't the problem many shooters think they are. Transonic turbulence, which puts accuracy at risk, may occur when supersonic rounds slow down into the transonic range of velocities.

All match ammo for .22LR will be in the transonic range of "speeds" (about 890 fps to 1340 fps) and won't slow down out of it until about 150 yards. The vast majority of high velocity .22LR ammo remains in the transonic zone a little further.

The reason HV ammo may be less accurate than match ammo is because it is not made to have match ammo round-to-round consistency.

He’s shooting squirrels in his yard. I’d be more concerned about keeping the initial speed in subsonic ranges. Accuracy should be fine for what he’s doing

A .22 going off at subsonic speeds through a suppressor sounds like a paintball gun.

A .22 just clearing the supersonic threshold going through a suppressor sounds like a .22 without a suppressor

Cut it and run CCI standard velocity (at least that’s what I’d do). No need for match ammo or special made subsonic ammo. If you still break the subsonic range then try something slower.

My T1X 16” won’t hit supersonic with SK match, SK LR or CCI SV

Can also just use an air gun. I shoot my squirrels with a Benjamin marauder .22 or Armada in .25 cal

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T13:30:19-0500

Far as I know, sniper barrels are long to maximize velocity, not accuracy. But I am no expert.

I know a 16" .22 barrel is just about as fast as a 20" barrel.

hafejd30 · 2024-12-23T13:57:57-0500

Buck Wilde said:
Far as I know, sniper barrels are long to maximize velocity, not accuracy. But I am no expert.

I know a 16" .22 barrel is just about as fast as a 20" barrel.

There’s a point where velocity peaks and then drops yes. Around 18”-20” I believe

I do know the same ammo subsonic in my T1X 16” shot through my 18” bergara will go supersonic on occasion. SK match won’t do it very much but my lot of SK LR does it more frequently

Here’s a 100 yard 10 shot group with SK LR in the Bergara. I had at least 3 if I remember go supersonic and got the “crack” vs the others. Shot through a griffin Optimus Micro. In my case at this range it made no difference

oneshot.onehit · 2024-12-23T14:37:27-0500

I’m running a 25” only because I mess around with the crazy long distance stuff. The average powder burn is finished in the 18 to 20” range and you have optimum speed for that brand with good accuracy . The extra length is only desired to get the extreme velocity spreads tighter as the lead slug settles down while still in the barrel after getting its butt kicked from behind in which here is only desirable if shooting crazy distances because the speed spreads will be tighter yet slightly slower.

With the 25’ barrel I loose a little speed maybe 20 - 30 fps but the average it better and with that said any match grade ammo will be sub sonic when it leaves the barrel , my Midas plus runs 1050 fps at the muzzle and by 75 yards is floating in the 953 to 984 range. We have messed around with slightly higher velocity ammo and played with Mach tuning in which the ammo would leave the barrel just above the speed of sound and found the the extreme speed difference at the muzzle was cleaned up some as it broke the sound wave thus the extreme spread was less or better before it reached 75 to 100 yards on the Doppler in which would clean up some of the vertical dispersion at distance but this get very annal do to the speed of sound changing with temperature on a given day and it was cool to see how you could have a better extreme spread at 100 yards versus the muzzle but is it really worth the effort ??? We have shot some crazy tight targets at 500 to 700 yards with just Midas Plus which leaves sub sonic so its not worth it in my opinion but it was cool to see how you would break the sound barrier just after leaving the muzzle and once it settled before 75 to 100 yards the numbers were better.

Cheers
Jh

grauhanen · 2024-12-23T15:07:26-0500

oneshot.onehit said:
Have you tested this or is it your theory or hear-say. Just asking I shoot a lot of extreme ELR both centerfire as well as 22LR? I am always open to real data at this level .

Thanks
Jh

Familiarize yourself with the problem of transonic turbulence. You'll see that it may become a problem for some bullets as they slow down from supersonic speeds and enter the transonic range of speeds. As has been noted above, the vast majority of .22LR ammo never exceed the transonic range. It can't slow down into a speed range it never exceeds.

This isn't the place for a more full discussion of the problem. Nevertheless, it can be noted that it was confirmed in 1990 by Robert McCoy that .22LR ammo with transonic zone velocities (from about 1340 fps to 890 fps) doesn't suffer from the increased pitching and yawing that causes the flight instability associated with bullets slowing down into the transonic zone from considerably greater velocities. See conclusion #5, p.11 in Robert McCoy "AERODYANMIC CHARACTERISTICS OF CALIBER .22 LONG RIFLE MATCH AMMUNITION" https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a229713.pdf

The image below may serve as a brief visual introduction to the issue.

As far as high velocity .22LR ammo being less consistent than match ammo, if anyone needs to see the evidence it's easily seen whenever reliable and serious target shooting is done. There's a clear cost-of-production reason .22LR HV is usually much less costly than .22LR match ammo.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T15:43:50-0500

hafejd30 said:
Here’s a 100 yard 10 shot group with SK LR in the Bergara. I had at least 3 if I remember go supersonic and got the “crack” vs the others. Shot through a griffin Optimus Micro. In my case at this range it made no difference.

Tell me the honest truth. What kind of groups does that combination USUALLY get? I gave up on rimfire accuracy based on a long thread here. A guy whose handle is Justin Amateur provided pretty good arguments against trying to get real accuracy with a .22. He showed a photo of a target shot with some kind of precision rifle that was bolted down, and it was a mess compared to what a real precision rifle will do.

If it's actually possible to get a .22 that will shoot consistently into half an inch at 50 yards, I am willing to buy one for the stinking squirrels, but I don't want to have my heart broken again. I have something like 3,000 rounds of .17 HMR which I bought before I learned 1-MOA groups with .17 HMR were always flukes.

If I could get the A22 to do 1" at 50 yards (consistently, not an occasional 5-shot group) I would be beside myself with joy.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T15:51:30-0500

The A22 I plan to cut up does pretty well at 25 yards. It shoots about the same with Mini-mags or CCI Standard Velocity. Something like half an inch if I don't flinch. Good enough for squirrel head shots with a rest. At 50 yards, for my 75th-percentile skill level, it has to be a body shot or else I'm likely to maim a squirrel and have it run off to suffer.

I don't have any .22 bolt guns. I didn't think there was any point, because I thought there was no chance of real accuracy.

Below is a 25-yard target shot from a shooting table I made.

01 13 21 Savage A22 36 g Mini-mag 25 y small.jpg

oneshot.onehit · 2024-12-23T15:58:00-0500

grauhanen said:
Familiarize yourself with the problem of transonic turbulence. You'll see that it may become a problem for some bullets as they slow down from supersonic speeds and enter the transonic range of speeds. As has been noted above, the vast majority of .22LR ammo never exceed the transonic range. It can't slow down into a speed range it never exceeds.

This isn't the place for a more full discussion of the problem. Nevertheless, it can be noted that it was confirmed in 1990 by Robert McCoy that .22LR ammo with transonic zone velocities (from about 1340 fps to 890 fps) doesn't suffer from the increased pitching and yawing that causes the flight instability associated with bullets slowing down into the transonic zone from considerably greater velocities. See conclusion #5, p.11 in Robert McCoy "AERODYANMIC CHARACTERISTICS OF CALIBER .22 LONG RIFLE MATCH AMMUNITION" https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a229713.pdf

The image below may serve as a brief visual introduction to the issue.

As far as high velocity .22LR ammo being less consistent than match ammo, if anyone needs to see the evidence it's easily seen whenever reliable and serious target shooting is done. There's a clear cost-of-production reason .22LR HV is usually much less costly than .22LR match ammo.

I am very very familiar with transonic zones and have been having to deal with this in the ELR competitive world since 2016 and when we are today pushed to out 4200 yards in the center fire world and need to deal with the environments when its your time on the competitive line yes you better have it figured out.

My 22LR stuff - Midas Plus match grade ammo leaves my 25” barrel at 1052 so it is already sub sonic.

You’re right this isn’t the place, but hands on experience trumps those who just read /study or hear information versus dealing with it

The sad part is the original post was about taking a barrel down to 16” on a 22LR for taking out critters in which will get it done in a heart beat and all of this is irrelevant or way beyond what is needed. Buck you will have a good shooting rifle for what you you need it for period.
We all want to exceed our expectations

Thanks to you as well I see you focus as well in the technical side of the system, which is good

Cheers

JH

hafejd30 · 2024-12-23T17:01:28-0500

Buck Wilde said:
Tell me the honest truth. What kind of groups does that combination USUALLY get? I gave up on rimfire accuracy based on a long thread here. A guy whose handle is Justin Amateur provided pretty good arguments against trying to get real accuracy with a .22. He showed a photo of a target shot with some kind of precision rifle that was bolted down, and it was a mess compared to what a real precision rifle will do.

If it's actually possible to get a .22 that will shoot consistently into half an inch at 50 yards, I am willing to buy one for the stinking squirrels, but I don't want to have my heart broken again. I have something like 3,000 rounds of .17 HMR which I bought before I learned 1-MOA groups with .17 HMR were always flukes.

If I could get the A22 to do 1" at 50 yards (consistently, not an occasional 5-shot group) I would be beside myself with joy.

That’s the only 100 yard group I shot with the gun.

Shot a bunch of 50’s but I use it for hitting long range steel with my buddies

This was more or less to point out that even though some left subsonic and some didn’t they all landed in the same spot. How that’s looking at 200 I’m not sure

reelserious · 2024-12-23T17:18:55-0500

I cut my cz to 16.5 and with the can on it. Perfect

hlee · 2024-12-23T17:52:30-0500

Buck Wilde said:
Tell me the honest truth. What kind of groups does that combination USUALLY get? I gave up on rimfire accuracy based on a long thread here. A guy whose handle is Justin Amateur provided pretty good arguments against trying to get real accuracy with a .22. He showed a photo of a target shot with some kind of precision rifle that was bolted down, and it was a mess compared to what a real precision rifle will do.

If it's actually possible to get a .22 that will shoot consistently into half an inch at 50 yards, I am willing to buy one for the stinking squirrels, but I don't want to have my heart broken again. I have something like 3,000 rounds of .17 HMR which I bought before I learned 1-MOA groups with .17 HMR were always flukes.

If I could get the A22 to do 1" at 50 yards (consistently, not an occasional 5-shot group) I would be beside myself with joy.

Peruse this thread.

6X5 Thread V5.0 new 1/1/21

Hey guys welcome back to the "NEW OLD HIDE", its good to be home! So getting back to business I am starting the 6X5 thread over from scratch. Same rules: Rules are pretty simple. There must be exactly six groups of 5 shots, all on one target board. No more, no less. Every shot on the group...

www.snipershide.com

Note they’re not cherry picked 5 round groups, but six 5-round groups on one target paper. Yes, it is possible. Also, note that a 1” average at 50 yards will barely get you on the board.

reelserious · 2024-12-23T18:05:43-0500

My cz with can consistently shoots 1/2 inch at 50 yards and about 1.5 at 100 yards

FuhQ · 2024-12-23T18:53:55-0500

DOA said:
If that were the case, precision/sniper rifle barrels would be short. Velocity and wind drift play a role in accuracy down range. The only legitimate reason to shorten a barrel would be to add a suppressor.

Ok Boomer...

FuhQ · 2024-12-23T19:00:14-0500

Buck Wilde said:
Far as I know, sniper barrels are long to maximize velocity, not accuracy. But I am no expert.

I know a 16" .22 barrel is just about as fast as a 20" barrel.

Don't try to tell Boomers that, the truth might cause them to have a coronary. It's as bad as telling vintage sniper rifle collectors that a $20,000 paperwork'd XM3 is really just a modified $5,000 M24, which is nothing more than an $1,100 Rem 700 5R Milspec with a hand-picked heavy barrel on it in the same HS Precision stock, but with an adjustable cheekpiece and LOP. They'll almost ban you from the forum over it...Ask me how I know...

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T19:33:21-0500

hlee said:
Peruse this thread.

6X5 Thread V5.0 *new 1/1/21*

Hey guys welcome back to the "NEW OLD HIDE", its good to be home! So getting back to business I am starting the 6X5 thread over from scratch. Same rules: Rules are pretty simple. There must be exactly six groups of 5 shots, all on one target board. No more, no less. Every shot on the group...

www.snipershide.com

Not a whole lot of cheap guns on that list, but I see the Savage Mark II. CZ seems to be doing very well. No Tikkas.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T19:48:11-0500

I guess if I bought a new CZ 457 and immediately cut the barrel short, I would have to be quiet about it in order to prevent a major forum incident. They make a short gun, but they have a stupid European thread on the muzzle .

The Savage is tempting. I like Savages. Cheap and effective, and they give you a lot of room for modification and improvement. But a CZ comes with a barrel that comes out with three screws, and when you buy it, you don't need to fix anything.

hlee · 2024-12-23T20:02:50-0500

FuhQ said:
Don't try to tell Boomers that, the truth might cause them to have a coronary. It's as bad as telling vintage sniper rifle collectors that a $20,000 paperwork'd XM3 is really just a modified $5,000 M24, which is nothing more than an $1,100 Rem 700 5R Milspec with a hand-picked heavy barrel on it in the same HS Precision stock, but with an adjustable cheekpiece and LOP. They'll almost ban you from the forum over it...Ask me how I know...

When in India, don’t slaughter the sacred cows.

FuhQ · 2024-12-23T20:10:55-0500

hlee said:
When in India, don’t slaughter the sacred cows.

Yeah, well, in my eyes, stupidity doesn't know borders or cultures, I just calls it like I sees it.

Buck Wilde · 2024-12-23T20:13:01-0500

I'm a boomer myself, but I don't believe in being hidebound and refusing to learn.

Old people know a lot of stuff. When you get old, you realize the young should be glad the old eventually die. If we didn't, we would be so smart and so strong, they would be our slaves.

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