Just tried my first batch of brass with my induction heater and looking for opinions. First off the brass hasn’t been cleaned so that’s why the neck is black but do you guys see anything that looks like I over annealed them? I attempted to stop the instant I saw glowing. I sacrificed a few pieces doing the plier test but can’t tell any difference. Just looking for opinions for safety sake because I really like the gun im shooting them through
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Annealed brass opinion
- Thread starter Ragin_cajun
- Start date
Visibly it looks fine but when annealing you should have a way to determine if you’re actually even annealing or over annealing. Something like the AMP obviously tests this. I use tempilaq for my bench source annealer.
It’s hard to tell just by looking at the brass afterwards. Different brass will discolor differently as well. My Lapua vs my Nosler brass is visible different when annealed even though they’re annealed to the same time/temp
I don’t see anything to suggest you’re over annealing
It’s hard to tell just by looking at the brass afterwards. Different brass will discolor differently as well. My Lapua vs my Nosler brass is visible different when annealed even though they’re annealed to the same time/temp
I don’t see anything to suggest you’re over annealing
Thank you and I ordered so 750degree paint today for the future. This is all Hornady brass so I’m trying to get everything right before I use high dollar brass
The 750, I do a small stripe from the neck down to just past the shoulder. (It’s thick in the pic for demonstration purposes way back when)
I like to vary how deep into the shoulder vs the neck I center the case in the coil to try and time when the green chalky tempilaq turns to a clear liquid closer between the two, the neck will always turn first.
I like for the tempilaq to just turn clear below the shoulder, the necks get hotter, the shoulders gets to the 750 base line which is equivalent to what I think many argue the necks needing to get to 1k are after.
An example of the 750 turning clear just below the shoulders. Go further and it burns further down and turns and really nasty black goop that’s hard to steel wool off clean.
Two cases at each time, a tempilaq and unpainted, to show you can’t judge by looks alone. Cleanliness of the case has a lot to do with it.
I like to vary how deep into the shoulder vs the neck I center the case in the coil to try and time when the green chalky tempilaq turns to a clear liquid closer between the two, the neck will always turn first.
I like for the tempilaq to just turn clear below the shoulder, the necks get hotter, the shoulders gets to the 750 base line which is equivalent to what I think many argue the necks needing to get to 1k are after.
An example of the 750 turning clear just below the shoulders. Go further and it burns further down and turns and really nasty black goop that’s hard to steel wool off clean.
Two cases at each time, a tempilaq and unpainted, to show you can’t judge by looks alone. Cleanliness of the case has a lot to do with it.
Your brass just needs to be uniformed hardness. Whether that is simply stress relieved or annealed to the micro crystalline structure of spaceships, just make it all the same without massively overdoing it. All the rest is the stuff used to sell the ignorant masses something they likely don't need.
I just want to point out nobody has shown their annealer to recrystalize the structure of brass.
What I hope you understand it that temperature alone is not the key. It's about temperature + time. If the brass necks are at 750°F for a fraction of a second, you're not going to get the same result as if at 750°F for 2 seconds. Though I flame anneal, I gave up the tempilaq use as I just wasn't getting the anneal I thought I would get. I finally had to go to the "glow method" since I have a good idea what temperature I'm dealing with based on the color of the glow, then I set my time accordingly. I would do the same if I had an induction annealer other than the AMP. The AMP has done all the work and figured out the timing and built that into how the AMP is supposed to be used.
With the flame annealing that I do, I was still blind as to where I was with the annealing results. I finally got hold of a tool to help me determine what my annealing was like. My goal was to have my necks the same as virgin Lapua brass, or close to it. I found I was much further off than I thought. I'm sure most people annealing (and those using tempilaq) are likewise further off than they think. Though, like has been mention, the important thing is that whatever is done, it needs to be consistent.
Here's that test I did to find where I was in relation to my virgin Lapua brass:
When I tested mine I used brass that was fired about 3-5 times. I loaded 5 rounds into that brass. Then annealed using the same method as I use currently. Loaded 5 rounds into that brass
Results:
Not annealed: almost 3 inch group at 300 yards. 30+ fps spread
Annealed: 1.6 inch group at 300 yards 19 fps spread
5 rounds per group.
This is what I did to determine if I was actually making any difference aside from tempilaq and everything I read about annealing
Results:
Not annealed: almost 3 inch group at 300 yards. 30+ fps spread
Annealed: 1.6 inch group at 300 yards 19 fps spread
5 rounds per group.
This is what I did to determine if I was actually making any difference aside from tempilaq and everything I read about annealing
I’ve been reading the Bryan Litz 3 volume set “Advancements in LR Shooting”. He produced a lot of data that said generally we make conclusions on a sample size that is too small. Was yours a 1 group each, annealled vs not? Or a lot more?
I run the Annie it's good unit for 6 bra as reference the setting is 1.4 but that depends on the temperature of the brass at the time of annealing so adjustment might be needed you also need to adjust for the thickness of the neck. What I do is set the time for the neck to just start to turn red helps to dim the lights a bit. Ya would love to have an Amp but us poor folk got to feed the kids instead.
Educate yourself on proper temperature of cartridge brass , partial annealing or ductility restoration is what's to be accomplished .
One needs more heat ,nearer 1200-1300 Deg. F. for a shorter duration , in order to make your case neck and shoulder malleable .
No one's brass is annealed or realigning lattice aka crystalline structure growth ,not even at the factory level .
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F.
Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes.
Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.
WON'T make any difference what any of these people tell You or I tell You , simply READ and You'll fully understand WHY lower temperature DOESN'T do a damn thing . Higher heat shorter time ,lower heat WAY WAY TOO LONG OF TIME ,you'll ruin the case as heat will migrate through the cartridge case body and screw up the base . Persons who run cases at 700-800-900 Deg. F. , aren't doing anything but amusing themselves . Not a single one of them have an HV gauge ,so they DON'T know and only guess or pass the lie they've heard along .
Trust ME ,this man knows metallurgy :
George Vander Voort has a background in physical, process and mechanical metallurgy and has been performing metallographic studies for 47 years. He is a long-time member of ASTM Committee E-4 on metallography and has published extensively in metallography and failure analysis. He regularly teaches MEI courses for ASM International and is now doing webinars. He is a consultant for Struers Inc. and will be teaching courses soon for them.
I have met Jehovah Witnesses less annoying than an annealing evangelist.
It can work just fine, if . . . you get the bath hot enough, like 1100-1200°F.
I'd say it's a little more dangerous than flame annealing, but can be managed if one is inclined to be very very careful at all times.Why complicate simplicity ?. #1 problem is keeping the cartridge body cool ,I prefer under 250 Deg. F. but most certainly under 400 Deg. F. , otherwise BAD things can and will happen to rims and case-heads . People who are using the AMP apparently don't understand the temperatures involved . AMP far exceeds 700-900 Deg. more along the lines of 1200 Deg. F. or more .
I simply want to see reloaders doing it correctly ,how YOU do it isn't My business or concern . Just do it Right ,so YOU benefit .
Molten salts bath Class 1 or 2 at upper temperature is what would be required . Flame or induction would be far easier IMO .
Before any of you go berserk this is from AMP themselves :
The basics of cartridge brass:
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/
- We submitted six representative cases from five manufacturers for chemical analysis. They were all consistent with UNS C26000 specifications for cartridge brass, within analytical margin of error. (see Appendix 1 - 1.1 and Appendix 4).
- Cartridge brass melts at 915°C (1679°F). Up to that temperature it remains homogeneous (Appendix 1 - 1.1).
- Dezincification of brass can occur because of chemical attack, but heating brass, even to high annealing temperatures cannot cause dezincification unless chemicals are present. The zinc content of the alloy cannot burn or melt out up until boiling point (Appendix 1 - 1.6).
- Brass becomes harder with cold work such as drawing, stamping, forming etc., and softer when heated to annealing temperatures.
- The hardness of thin wall brass sections should be measured using micro hardness Vickers or Knoop testers (Appendix 1 - 1.2). Conventional Rockwell and Brinell equipment is not best suited to this application. The Vickers hardness scale is expressed as HV, with lower numbers being softer and higher numbers harder i.e. 50 HV is softer than 100HV.
- From testing on cross sections, the neck hardness of virgin cases from the two major brands tested averaged 100 HV. The hardness half way to the case head averaged 190 HV and the heads were 185 – 218 HV. The head hardness is variable depending on the region of the head being measured. (Appendix 2 figures 6.3, 6.12 and 6.13.)
The samples were placed in a controlled oven for one hour, one at 300°C (570°F), another at 350°C (660°F) and the third at 400°C (750°F). These were then sectioned as above for analysis. At temperatures of up to 350°C (660°F), very little happened in the neck regions.
I purposely separated the below sentence so ALL of you hopefully will understand ,WHY higher temp and shorter duration is vital . ONE HOUR AT 750 Deg. F. isn't even feasible . I'm partial annealing in seconds NOT minutes and certainly not hours !.
At 400°C (750°F) for one hour, the neck was annealed to an average of 117 HV mid wall and 83 – 89 HV at the edges of the neck wall.
(Appendix (2) - 4.0 – 4.6). The case heads, however, were softened in each region measured as shown below. See appendix (2) 4.3 for explanation.
I love the science behind all of this and a machine such as the amp that can do it but 20yrs of construction and growing up in a fab shop prior to engineering kinda made me less amazed and just look for real world solutions. Since we (some of us, not me) have amp machines we could simply get higher temp tempilaq and figure out whats happening and replicate it with home built annealers for $250. Simply take a few extra brass and put vertical marks of different temps and put that in the amp and see what temps it hits and where on the cases the temp changes are then simply replicate on a handheld annealer with a timer to control it and 
. If we all trust the amp then no matter if we’re truly annealing or restoring partial ductility is simply semantics, we’re simply extending the life of our brass.
. If we all trust the amp then no matter if we’re truly annealing or restoring partial ductility is simply semantics, we’re simply extending the life of our brass.I love the science behind all of this and a machine such as the amp that can do it but 20yrs of construction and growing up in a fab shop prior to engineering kinda made me less amazed and just look for real world solutions. Since we (some of us, not me) have amp machines we could simply get higher temp tempilaq and figure out whats happening and replicate it with home built annealers for $250. Simply take a few extra brass and put vertical marks of different temps and put that in the amp and see what temps it hits and where on the cases the temp changes are then simply replicate on a handheld annealer with a timer to control it and
YEP ; That's the gist of what all of us are doing , is extending case neck and shoulder life . All comes with a price ,case stretch aka elongation until eventually case head separation or shoulder blow out . Yet extends # of reloads 3-7 fold before any of that is a concern .
I set up MY annealer after changing the clamp and torch head . I also ran numerous test cases noting TIME rather than color ,of all calibers I reload for ( 17 ) . Then after verifying on an HV tester adjusted those time tables better .
I use an Annealeez modified ,NO earthly reason to put out ridiculous monies for an AMP machine . One can make a Really Good water cooled 1200-1400 watt , water cooled induction heater for perhaps $350-550 or less .
A close friend of mine made a very nice water cooled induction heater , he did the electronics ( his thing ) I supplied copper tubing and an extra Bernard SS circulation tank pump , off a GTAW /Heli Arc machine I had lying about . He mounted the whole affair on one of those 36" Rubber Maid polyurethane rolling carts . Has extra shelves underneath it's sweet ,was going to 3D print a trap door with a timer . Never heard whether he did ,as we moved .
I don't quite go this extreme of Orange but close and I personally don't see a problem with how this fellow is doing his . I just try to replicate Lapua's witness marks and don't go too far down past the shoulder. The Body isn't where I want the heat ( Right or Wrong ) it's working for ME .
I do have access to super sophisticated Lab analysis equipment and checked ALL MY reloading cases on a vickers scale aka HV hardness tester . I worked nearly 24 years in Aerospace ,as a PHD. , R&D Chemist/ Composites Fabrication Engineer . What I didn't know ; I ASKED PEOPLE WHO DID KNOW . Then verified info by testing .
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/homemade-induction-annealer.6966638/
What I’ve done is simply take a cheap hand held annealer like everyone has seen on YouTube but changed it up a little bit. Instead of the timer controlling power to the unit I opened it up and tapped into the switch in parallel to run a pigtail out of the bottom to plug into the timer. Doing it this way allows the switch to work as normal but also the timer works as doesn’t turn the fans off so it’s still cooling the whole time. I’ve found no heat issues with this unit yet.
Explain over annealed. If you over annealed it? You just about melted it. Many here don’t know anything about metallurgy other than what someone says. It’s like the Tempilac bs spewed on the net. So, are we stress relieving or annealing? Cause there IS a difference
The one where everyone claims when it hit 750F it’s annealed and that’s BS
I’m guessing that over annealing could burn part of the tin off and make the case to soft but I haven’t ran into that problem yet so 
I’m interested in learning more
I’m interested in learning more
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Annealing temp of brass is based on time and temp. At 600F it takes 1 hr to anneal. 750F in a few seconds it’s NOT annealed. Brass can be annealed at 1291F. That is the max limit on annealing temp. 1690F is melting temp. So when your brass glows red to orange? It’s getting annealed. No you cannot dezinc brass or eliminate one of it chemical compounds when annealing.
Any color between full red to orange is fine. Ppl rant and rave over the AMP. THE AMP is just an induction annealer like any other. What you’re paying for is the lab results for HV testing in all the brass manufacturers and cartridges. But there are plenty of places you could send your brass to that’d hardness test them. Of course at a price. But much cheaper than price of an amp if you’re doing one or 2 pieces of brass labeled 1.9 sec, 2 sec or whatever time you set your induction to…
As stated before, consistency is key but also at a temp above the 750F BS
Any color between full red to orange is fine. Ppl rant and rave over the AMP. THE AMP is just an induction annealer like any other. What you’re paying for is the lab results for HV testing in all the brass manufacturers and cartridges. But there are plenty of places you could send your brass to that’d hardness test them. Of course at a price. But much cheaper than price of an amp if you’re doing one or 2 pieces of brass labeled 1.9 sec, 2 sec or whatever time you set your induction to…
As stated before, consistency is key but also at a temp above the 750F BS
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Ok, and so by the time the 750 tempilaq changes below the case shoulder, how hot to you suspect the neck gets? And what if you were told that by the time the 750 turns below the shoulder, that the neck is glowing?
Editing to add emphasis since people whop argue this never read whats written
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I do my annealing in bright day light. Dont see anything for glow. BUT tempilaq, when used in the manner as described, correlates seemingly exactly, from 223 to 3006 in my experiences.
Sure, if you only look at tempilaq on the neck then its not enough, but thats not what people are saying to do.
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You don’t need to waste your time on Tempilac. If induction, the case body will never see annealing temps because it’s flashed
Tempilac makes a 1000F. I’d say that would be more beneficial on a case neck than using 750 at all
I set my annealer dwell times/gas psi per cartridge using tempilac. I paint a 750* stripe down the entire case. I note that when it melts roughly 1/3 of the way down the case body I have the glow just change to orange on the neck without burn off. My goal is the temp change but I do use the tempilac as one reference. Don't know if you would call that annealing or stress relieving with my set up method but I will say that is my process for years and I have very good consistency and number of loads before case neck failure/loss of neck tension. I also anneal every cycle though I see recommendations to anneal all manner of frequencies. Always open to improvement though.
I will say your cases look like mine finished though that is likely a poor reference.
I will say your cases look like mine finished though that is likely a poor reference.
Unless you get it hardness tested it’s hard to say how well it’s annealed? However if you see it dull red to an orange? Its annealed. And consistency is key. You don’t need the hardness testing done. That’s just be for piece of mind knowing you hit the optimum a hardness testing however let’s say instead of the 90HV you were 115HV. While it wouldn’t as good? It’d still relax the grain structure enough that you don’t have to worry about your second reload cracking a neck. Secondly, hitting the correct hardness of annealing doesn’t guarantee the best results. There are some I’ve read using an AMP and stated their accuracy was off. However if you’re consistent in what you’re doing and accuracy is good then I see no issues. Annealing brass is simply for longevity. Not accuracy. Consistency just ensure a constant neck tension throughout.
I agree on the longevity vs accuracy. Only reason I started annealing....to get more reloads per case. Now I am sure it does help keep neck tension more consistent throughout the life of the cases but I have never noticed more or less accuracy after annealing or vs loading before I started annealing.
I’m sure ppl who stated accuracy changes was based on their fundamentals and not annealing process
I can't say I've noticed any accuracy changes due to my annealing process, but I find it has improved my chrono results (e.g. better SD's). . . which may be related to some extent to more consistent "neck tension".
Thanks for chiming in.
So inconsistent vs consistent neck tension won't effect accuracy? This is why I anneal....
I find the pressure to seat bullets to become inconsistent over several firings. Annealing creates consistent seating pressures for me.
Yes. Neck tension as well. It makes it consistent as since all brass is at the same annealing, the necks should be as well. Where as no anneal one is harder than the other etc
I’m guessing that over annealing could burn part of the tin off and make the case to soft but I haven’t ran into that problem yet so
NO dezincification WON'T happen unless chemicals are present . Vinegar ,Citric acid and so many more home cleaning recipes can and will cause that . IF not thoroughly neutralized prior to heating .
To over anneal Brass is to melt it . Brass must be held at TEMPERATURE AND TIME ,for true annealing .
AMP hits about 1400°f. We understand just fine. Nothing happens to brass at 400°f for the length of time we’re subjecting it to.
You are absolutely correct neck tension consistency is what's important . Now this will hurt peoples feelings : All MY brass I've tested ,New , once fired or partial annealed , vary in various spots on the neck . It's the nature of the beast .
It most certainly will extend case longevity .
NO one not even factory brass manufacturers are actually annealing brass cases ,it's simply a misnomer or mis stated phrase for " Partial Annealing " . As NO grain structure or lattice appears ,we reloaders are simply resorting ductility or malleability .
IF one puts a piece of brass in an oven say at 800 Deg. F. , after about 30 Minutes it will be truly annealed ( depending upon size of brass ) but a cartridge case will become totally worthless . Heat in excess of 400 Deg. F. to the body and especially the base will ruin any cartridge case . Those areas MUST REMAIN HARDENED ,so as to withstand pressure . Again proving Time with Temp works either for you or against you .
Partial annealing does happen at higher heat and less time duration . 750 -900 Deg. F. isn't enough , IMO but 1200 Deg. F. is . As to a long a duration time Heat begins to migrate down the body of the case . So as precision a flame one can muster ,aimed at the shoulder flowing onto the neck and as it begins to glow orange is enough . Measuring neck temperature accurately is beyond any reasonable control ,it happens too quickly and flame is present or an induction coil ,so measuring is dicey at best .
Partial annealing takes seconds not minutes or an hour and does restore ductility . HV about 115-124 ,after one sizing stroke . I've tested all of the calibers on Mine .
You know when people tell you " If you got your brass neck orange it's ruined or over annealed " , Total Bullshit !.
NO ; dezincification WON'T happen unless chemicals are present . Ammonia ,Vinegar ,Citric acid and so many more home cleaning recipes can and will cause that . IF not thoroughly neutralized . Any strong oxidizer, acid or even saliva will contribute .
The only practical way zinc come away from copper cartridge cases is by MELTING them .
To over anneal Brass is to melt it . Brass must be held at TEMPERATURE AND TIME ,for true annealing and NONE of us can do that .
Note what AMP states : At 400°C (750°F) for one hour, the neck was annealed to an average of 117 HV mid wall and 83 – 89 HV at the edges of the neck wall.
1400F? No it doesn’t. THAT would be OVERANNEALED. Max annealing temp for cartridge brass usc2600 is 1291F.
Here we go.
You’re missing the time component.
Do you think if a piece of cartridge brass in the area of .011" to .013" thick contacts something that's 2000 degrees, for a quarter second, it's going to melt, just because brass melts at just over 1600 degrees? How hot do you think a MAP gas flame is?
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Guys ; If any of you feel you've over annealed a case neck ? There's a simple solution size the neck once or twice ,Problem solved .
It's known as cold working . I myself did some cases where necks turned red ,still using some of those cases . None were ruined .
A long known principle of hydraulic plumbing ,use Steel ,SS , Synthetic rubber, Thermoplastic hose with 1-6 wire reinforced flexible hose .
Copper or aluminum won't work , as those materials fatigue from cold working .
Photo's regardless of how I attempt to post aren't coming through , so must be on the Hide technical glitch .
I was going to show various witness marks ,contamination from chemical partial annealing Etc. .
It's known as cold working . I myself did some cases where necks turned red ,still using some of those cases . None were ruined .
A long known principle of hydraulic plumbing ,use Steel ,SS , Synthetic rubber, Thermoplastic hose with 1-6 wire reinforced flexible hose .
Copper or aluminum won't work , as those materials fatigue from cold working .
Photo's regardless of how I attempt to post aren't coming through , so must be on the Hide technical glitch .
I was going to show various witness marks ,contamination from chemical partial annealing Etc. .
Some partial annealing of 7.62X51 cases ,as well as 5.56X45 . After some time and flame adjustments ,I was able to match Lapua's witness marks . I've never been successful at partial annealing any case and not having it darken ,the heat simply makes it happen .
One can however polish the cases to remove 90+ % of it ,so not the end of the world or a deal breaker .
The photo Raw annealed , note the green haze left after partial annealing ,due to MY error in leaving cleaning solution on Brass and not rinsing and neutralizing same . Case in far right corner of same photo shows all cleaned up well and were quite usable .
Having a stripped trunion ( unknown to me at the time ) on one of my oldest Garands ,prevented my adjusting the rear aperture so group is low . However at 165 Yd. isn't a hateful group ,all #8 are there. We should all work that well at 81 years old
One can however polish the cases to remove 90+ % of it ,so not the end of the world or a deal breaker .
The photo Raw annealed , note the green haze left after partial annealing ,due to MY error in leaving cleaning solution on Brass and not rinsing and neutralizing same . Case in far right corner of same photo shows all cleaned up well and were quite usable .
Having a stripped trunion ( unknown to me at the time ) on one of my oldest Garands ,prevented my adjusting the rear aperture so group is low . However at 165 Yd. isn't a hateful group ,all #8 are there. We should all work that well at 81 years old
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