Just tried my first batch of brass with my induction heater and looking for opinions. First off the brass hasn’t been cleaned so that’s why the neck is black but do you guys see anything that looks like I over annealed them? I attempted to stop the instant I saw glowing. I sacrificed a few pieces doing the plier test but can’t tell any difference. Just looking for opinions for safety sake because I really like the gun im shooting them through
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Annealed brass opinion
- Thread starter Ragin_cajun
- Start date
Visibly it looks fine but when annealing you should have a way to determine if you’re actually even annealing or over annealing. Something like the AMP obviously tests this. I use tempilaq for my bench source annealer.
It’s hard to tell just by looking at the brass afterwards. Different brass will discolor differently as well. My Lapua vs my Nosler brass is visible different when annealed even though they’re annealed to the same time/temp
I don’t see anything to suggest you’re over annealing
It’s hard to tell just by looking at the brass afterwards. Different brass will discolor differently as well. My Lapua vs my Nosler brass is visible different when annealed even though they’re annealed to the same time/temp
I don’t see anything to suggest you’re over annealing
Thank you and I ordered so 750degree paint today for the future. This is all Hornady brass so I’m trying to get everything right before I use high dollar brass
The 750, I do a small stripe from the neck down to just past the shoulder. (It’s thick in the pic for demonstration purposes way back when)
I like to vary how deep into the shoulder vs the neck I center the case in the coil to try and time when the green chalky tempilaq turns to a clear liquid closer between the two, the neck will always turn first.
I like for the tempilaq to just turn clear below the shoulder, the necks get hotter, the shoulders gets to the 750 base line which is equivalent to what I think many argue the necks needing to get to 1k are after.
An example of the 750 turning clear just below the shoulders. Go further and it burns further down and turns and really nasty black goop that’s hard to steel wool off clean.
Two cases at each time, a tempilaq and unpainted, to show you can’t judge by looks alone. Cleanliness of the case has a lot to do with it.
I like to vary how deep into the shoulder vs the neck I center the case in the coil to try and time when the green chalky tempilaq turns to a clear liquid closer between the two, the neck will always turn first.
I like for the tempilaq to just turn clear below the shoulder, the necks get hotter, the shoulders gets to the 750 base line which is equivalent to what I think many argue the necks needing to get to 1k are after.
An example of the 750 turning clear just below the shoulders. Go further and it burns further down and turns and really nasty black goop that’s hard to steel wool off clean.
Two cases at each time, a tempilaq and unpainted, to show you can’t judge by looks alone. Cleanliness of the case has a lot to do with it.
Your brass just needs to be uniformed hardness. Whether that is simply stress relieved or annealed to the micro crystalline structure of spaceships, just make it all the same without massively overdoing it. All the rest is the stuff used to sell the ignorant masses something they likely don't need.
I just want to point out nobody has shown their annealer to recrystalize the structure of brass.
What I hope you understand it that temperature alone is not the key. It's about temperature + time. If the brass necks are at 750°F for a fraction of a second, you're not going to get the same result as if at 750°F for 2 seconds. Though I flame anneal, I gave up the tempilaq use as I just wasn't getting the anneal I thought I would get. I finally had to go to the "glow method" since I have a good idea what temperature I'm dealing with based on the color of the glow, then I set my time accordingly. I would do the same if I had an induction annealer other than the AMP. The AMP has done all the work and figured out the timing and built that into how the AMP is supposed to be used.
With the flame annealing that I do, I was still blind as to where I was with the annealing results. I finally got hold of a tool to help me determine what my annealing was like. My goal was to have my necks the same as virgin Lapua brass, or close to it. I found I was much further off than I thought. I'm sure most people annealing (and those using tempilaq) are likewise further off than they think. Though, like has been mention, the important thing is that whatever is done, it needs to be consistent.
Here's that test I did to find where I was in relation to my virgin Lapua brass:
When I tested mine I used brass that was fired about 3-5 times. I loaded 5 rounds into that brass. Then annealed using the same method as I use currently. Loaded 5 rounds into that brass
Results:
Not annealed: almost 3 inch group at 300 yards. 30+ fps spread
Annealed: 1.6 inch group at 300 yards 19 fps spread
5 rounds per group.
This is what I did to determine if I was actually making any difference aside from tempilaq and everything I read about annealing
Results:
Not annealed: almost 3 inch group at 300 yards. 30+ fps spread
Annealed: 1.6 inch group at 300 yards 19 fps spread
5 rounds per group.
This is what I did to determine if I was actually making any difference aside from tempilaq and everything I read about annealing
I’ve been reading the Bryan Litz 3 volume set “Advancements in LR Shooting”. He produced a lot of data that said generally we make conclusions on a sample size that is too small. Was yours a 1 group each, annealled vs not? Or a lot more?
I run the Annie it's good unit for 6 bra as reference the setting is 1.4 but that depends on the temperature of the brass at the time of annealing so adjustment might be needed you also need to adjust for the thickness of the neck. What I do is set the time for the neck to just start to turn red helps to dim the lights a bit. Ya would love to have an Amp but us poor folk got to feed the kids instead.
Educate yourself on proper temperature of cartridge brass , partial annealing or ductility restoration is what's to be accomplished .
One needs more heat ,nearer 1200-1300 Deg. F. for a shorter duration , in order to make your case neck and shoulder malleable .
No one's brass is annealed or realigning lattice aka crystalline structure growth ,not even at the factory level .
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Annealing experiments were conducted on a number of the cold worked specimens. Figures 5a and b show color etched images of the specimens cold reduced 50% and then annealed 30 minutes at 500 and 700°F. No difference in the microstructure is seen in the specimen held 30 minutes at 500°F while a very small amount of recrystallization is observed in the specimen held 30 minutes at 700°F.
Figures 6a and b show color images of 50% cold reduced specimens held for 4 and 8 minutes at 800°F while Figures 6c and d show 50% cold reduced specimens held 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F. No change is observed after 4 minutes at 800°F, while a minor amount of recrystallization has occurred after 8 minutes.
Holding specimens for 15 and 30 minutes at 800°F revealed partial recrystallization after 15 minutes and full recrystallization after 30 minutes. The grain structure is relatively fine but is not uniform in its distribution.
WON'T make any difference what any of these people tell You or I tell You , simply READ and You'll fully understand WHY lower temperature DOESN'T do a damn thing . Higher heat shorter time ,lower heat WAY WAY TOO LONG OF TIME ,you'll ruin the case as heat will migrate through the cartridge case body and screw up the base . Persons who run cases at 700-800-900 Deg. F. , aren't doing anything but amusing themselves . Not a single one of them have an HV gauge ,so they DON'T know and only guess or pass the lie they've heard along .
Trust ME ,this man knows metallurgy :
George Vander Voort has a background in physical, process and mechanical metallurgy and has been performing metallographic studies for 47 years. He is a long-time member of ASTM Committee E-4 on metallography and has published extensively in metallography and failure analysis. He regularly teaches MEI courses for ASM International and is now doing webinars. He is a consultant for Struers Inc. and will be teaching courses soon for them.
It can work just fine, if . . . you get the bath hot enough, like 1100-1200°F.
I'd say it's a little more dangerous than flame annealing, but can be managed if one is inclined to be very very careful at all times.Why complicate simplicity ?. #1 problem is keeping the cartridge body cool ,I prefer under 250 Deg. F. but most certainly under 400 Deg. F. , otherwise BAD things can and will happen to rims and case-heads . People who are using the AMP apparently don't understand the temperatures involved . AMP far exceeds 700-900 Deg. more along the lines of 1200 Deg. F. or more .
I simply want to see reloaders doing it correctly ,how YOU do it isn't My business or concern . Just do it Right ,so YOU benefit .
Molten salts bath Class 1 or 2 at upper temperature is what would be required . Flame or induction would be far easier IMO .
Before any of you go berserk this is from AMP themselves :
The basics of cartridge brass:
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/
- We submitted six representative cases from five manufacturers for chemical analysis. They were all consistent with UNS C26000 specifications for cartridge brass, within analytical margin of error. (see Appendix 1 - 1.1 and Appendix 4).
- Cartridge brass melts at 915°C (1679°F). Up to that temperature it remains homogeneous (Appendix 1 - 1.1).
- Dezincification of brass can occur because of chemical attack, but heating brass, even to high annealing temperatures cannot cause dezincification unless chemicals are present. The zinc content of the alloy cannot burn or melt out up until boiling point (Appendix 1 - 1.6).
- Brass becomes harder with cold work such as drawing, stamping, forming etc., and softer when heated to annealing temperatures.
- The hardness of thin wall brass sections should be measured using micro hardness Vickers or Knoop testers (Appendix 1 - 1.2). Conventional Rockwell and Brinell equipment is not best suited to this application. The Vickers hardness scale is expressed as HV, with lower numbers being softer and higher numbers harder i.e. 50 HV is softer than 100HV.
- From testing on cross sections, the neck hardness of virgin cases from the two major brands tested averaged 100 HV. The hardness half way to the case head averaged 190 HV and the heads were 185 – 218 HV. The head hardness is variable depending on the region of the head being measured. (Appendix 2 figures 6.3, 6.12 and 6.13.)
The samples were placed in a controlled oven for one hour, one at 300°C (570°F), another at 350°C (660°F) and the third at 400°C (750°F). These were then sectioned as above for analysis. At temperatures of up to 350°C (660°F), very little happened in the neck regions.
I purposely separated the below sentence so ALL of you hopefully will understand ,WHY higher temp and shorter duration is vital . ONE HOUR AT 750 Deg. F. isn't even feasible . I'm partial annealing in seconds NOT minutes and certainly not hours !.
At 400°C (750°F) for one hour, the neck was annealed to an average of 117 HV mid wall and 83 – 89 HV at the edges of the neck wall.
(Appendix (2) - 4.0 – 4.6). The case heads, however, were softened in each region measured as shown below. See appendix (2) 4.3 for explanation.
