Thinking about getting a Seekins HIT rifle in either 260 or 6.5 Creedmore. Would be shooting PRS out to 1000 yards. Which cartridge is easier to develop accurate loads for? Leaning towards the 260 because I have a lot of 308 brass. Yes, I would buy brass for either, but if things ever get crazy having the ability to make 260 brass would be nice.
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260 Vs. 6.5 Creedmore
- Thread starter MMH
- Start date
I find necking up from .243 is a little better than using .308. But, nowadays, cheap 6.5 creedmoor is less expensive than sourcing primers, bullets, and powder. AAC ammo is $1.25 ish per round delivered to my front door. It probably shoots better than I do.
Since you’re reloading 260 all the way. I’ve loaded for both and the 260 can be loaded for better velocity
The downside of the 260 is overall cartridge length. With long bullets you can run into issues with the ammo fitting in the magazine when running close or into the lands. This isn’t a problem with the 6.5 in my experience
If you were running factory then 6.5 CM
Otherwise
The downside of the 260 is overall cartridge length. With long bullets you can run into issues with the ammo fitting in the magazine when running close or into the lands. This isn’t a problem with the 6.5 in my experience
If you were running factory then 6.5 CM
Otherwise
6.5 Creedmoor for a match rifle. It will do anything you need and also allow the use of factory ammo if you didn't get a chance to load. Nothing the .260 can do over the 6.5 for a match rifle. 50fps more means nothing in matches.
6.5 Manbun vs God's own cartridge?
Is that even a real question?
Hafejd said if all.
Is that even a real question?
Hafejd said if all.
When that old statue was made is about the last time the .260 was relevant. LOL
OP people call the 6.5 Creedmoor the "Man bun" or other names when they know it's better but can't admit it. LOL You are building a new match rifle in 6.5mm so just use the right cartridge. Here's the current PRS cartridge use for all its members. Hmm what is missing???
OP people call the 6.5 Creedmoor the "Man bun" or other names when they know it's better but can't admit it. LOL You are building a new match rifle in 6.5mm so just use the right cartridge. Here's the current PRS cartridge use for all its members. Hmm what is missing???
260 Rem and 6.5 Creed are pretty close in performance. 260 Rem has a bit more case capacity, so you can push a little harder. 6.5 Creed gives you a little more room to work with longer bullets, and is supposed to be slightly more efficient. You can get factory ammo is either, although 6.5 Creed has benefitted from a lot of marketing and probably has more factory ammo options now, and brass might be easier to find when things get tight.. If you are reloading, you could do either. I like my 260s, and there is not enough advantage to move to 6.5 Creed. If I was starting today, I would probably Bo with 6.5 Creed just because of component availability. Neither choice is going to give you a performance advantage that is enough to make a difference.
260 Rem was a flop, period. It is the master of nothing. The 6.5 Creed has sold 10,000% more rifles and ammo than the 260.
260 was and is superior. To those who can utilize it properly.
6.5 was/is an overrated, overhyped and over marketed round for its performance
If we’re comparing factory ammo they are same same. But reloading and throated properly the 260 still outperforms the 6.5.
Might not matter for prs or inside 1000. Velocity is your friend at distance though
I run 2835 in my 260 with 142 smk. The couple 6.5 cm I’ve seen are mid 2700’s cratering primers and running into heavy bolt lift/ejector swipes
Others results may vary. But if your setup to do both. The 260 just makes more sense to me. But you need the mag length to take advantage of it
Id say the same for a 300 PRC against a properly throated 300 WM. When you build the rifle correctly and hand load the difference becomes minor. The 300 WM is the 260 in this case. It has more ability than factory ammo or most hand loaders know how to achieve. 300 PRC like the CM has a lot of marketing behind it
I’m not saying the 6.5 cm is a garbage round. But let’s be realistic in that a similar round with better performance was already on the table
260 was marketed and sold as a hunting round like the 300 WM. Never got the marketing attention or traction in LR like the 6.5 cm was marketed for. The factory ammo has typically been hunting oriented as well
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I have factory 140 ELD ammo in my 28” Creedmoor doing 2850fps and no cratering or heavy bolt lift. You can load that also. Can’t speak for the couple rifles you saw but it can easily be done if you needed it.
The OP wants a match round. The 6.5 Creedmoor is it. The .260 does nothing the Creedmoor can’t for matches and lacks the factory match ammo availability. You can get an extra 50fps from the .260 if you load it. And? Means nothing for match ranges. This isn’t the mid 2000s where you wants fast and flat. Different game now.
The OP wants a match round. The 6.5 Creedmoor is it. The .260 does nothing the Creedmoor can’t for matches and lacks the factory match ammo availability. You can get an extra 50fps from the .260 if you load it. And? Means nothing for match ranges. This isn’t the mid 2000s where you wants fast and flat. Different game now.
My speeds were 24-26” barrels for reference.
I agree for prs like Rob mentioned, no real difference. I don’t shoot prs. But I have banged steel over a mile on several occasions with my 260 and 142’s
My 260 has allowed me to achieve better speeds with the same barrel lengths vs the 6.5 cm. Without needing to play on the max charge
Mag length and factory ammo are its enemies though
I’m only arguing the 260 because the op brought it up. Which leads me to believe he narrowed down to that and is willing to load either. Otherwise I think 6.5 vs 6mm would be a better argument if he’s not already familiar with the issues vs advantages mentioned above
I agree for prs like Rob mentioned, no real difference. I don’t shoot prs. But I have banged steel over a mile on several occasions with my 260 and 142’s
My 260 has allowed me to achieve better speeds with the same barrel lengths vs the 6.5 cm. Without needing to play on the max charge
Mag length and factory ammo are its enemies though
I’m only arguing the 260 because the op brought it up. Which leads me to believe he narrowed down to that and is willing to load either. Otherwise I think 6.5 vs 6mm would be a better argument if he’s not already familiar with the issues vs advantages mentioned above
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I'd bet my bank account balance that at least 100 times more steel has been rung at a mile with a 6.5 creed than a .260.
I have both. Both are fine. The difference is irrelevant, so the smart choice is availability. In the availability game, the 6.5 creedmoor is the all time king. I walked into Walmart a few days ago and the girl scouts standing by the front doors had 11 different kinds of cookies for sale.... 11.........And 6 different types of 6.5cm ammo.
You mention availability. What exactly are you referring to? The OP will be hand loading. For me the only thing between the two that different is the brass. One is 260 LRP and the other is 6.5 CM SRP with 450’s and LRP. Both LRP are CCI BR2 or 200’s
Other than that my comparison in both is H4350 and 142 SMK. I’ve also ran 143 ELDX in both and the 260 is about 50 fps faster as well but runs into mag length issues in some rifles with the tips
What are you having issues with in availability between these? Both 260 and 6.5 Lapua brass have been easy to get for me lately and the other components are irrelevant as they are used in both rounds like bullets/primers and powder.
If the only thing we’re comparing between the two is factory ammo then the OP shouldn’t even consider 260.
If you "throat properly" for longs in a 260 surely that puts you in long action territory, at which point 7PRC wipes the floor with it. If staying short action why on earth wouldn't you pick 6.5 or 6 creed, 6GT, fast twist 243 or a 6BR variant with 109, 110 or 115gr projectiles?
It's a moronic choice, just as buying a long action to build a 30-06 is. 300wsm will outperform it with better SDs, 300PRC or 7PRC will spank it. Nearly every catridge Remington has developed has to be modified or tweaked for target applications to perform as well as off the shelf solutions.
I'm surprised how many people are still shooting 6.5CM in PRS.
6.5CM is definitely the easier options and for the OP. For all intents and purposes both rounds do the same thing, 6.5CM is just easier due to more factory rifles, more factory ammo, and a better supply of brass and dies.
My 260 probably does perform a bit better than my 6.5CM but not enough for me to get too worried about.
If I had to go back to shooting just 260 I wouldn't bat an eyelid.
I hand load all my own ammo too.
As I mentioned earlier I took my rifle to a competition this summer and after the competition I went on vacation to Nashville.
Dead Zero Shooting Park is in Spencer TN about 2 hours from Nashville so I made a detour.
World class facility with electronic targets out to 1,000y.
I brought about 60 rounds with me and by noon I was bone dry.
The choices were to go to the pro shop and shoot factory ammo or stop shooting.
I bought 2 boxes of FGMM with 140gr SMK’s
1 box of Sierra brand Matchking Competition Ammunition with 140gr SMK’s.
1 box of Hornady Match with 147gr ELD-M’s
I can tell you that in my rifle the Sierra brand MatchKing Competition Ammunition was shooting around 0.6MOA while the FGMM with the exact same bullet was shooting 1.2-1.3MOA.
I can tell you that the nearly $200 I spent on ammo that day was the best $200 I spent on that vacation.
The middle group was shot by my buddy which explains the shift in POI.
He did get a slightly smaller grouping than I did.
The last group was shot using the Hornady Match 147ELD-M.
You can see the difference in velocity.
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Why do you always come into these threads with common sense and logic ?
I'm not. As I mentioned it's not about the fastest and flattest anymore with knowing all your ranges now. Now it's more about lower recoil and beating the wind. The people shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor are starting to move to heavier bullets with better BCs and going 2650-2700fps. Recoil with the great brakes and heavier rifles we have now is not bad and you get BCs that are very high to help with wind which is the largest variable. Andy Slade won the 2023 AG Cup shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor with 153.5s at 2680fps. Granted Andy is a great shooter and could be shooting any caliber but that is what he chose.
"Perform" word gets thrown around in this conversation and others comparing the two but we need to specify that does not mean more accurate, which is what is important. It means about 50fps more velocity. Sometimes that means nothing to most shooters. I would venture to say most of the time it means nothing unless you plan to shoot past a mile and need a little more velocity. The advantages of the Creedmoor like match ammo availability, prefit barrel availability, brass and factory rifles far outweigh that 50fps. It's similar to the .243 vs 6mm Creedmoor. Can the .260 do well? Sure it can as can the .243 but for someone coming in now the Creedmoor is just the easier choice as you said.
By throated properly I’m simply referring to a chamber (my CBI match chamber) for example that allows me to run close to the lands, .015” off in my case, with room to spare in the mag to chase wear if needed.
Certain rifles like savage were generous with magazine length compared to something like a R700. My AI mags leave plenty of room with the 142 smk. The ELDX however need to be .030” off the lands to fit the mag.
If your barrel and mags are correct the length won’t be an issue with the 140 class bullets.
You don’t need a long action to run a 260
Current trend is moving to people running 147 and 150+ grains as well. Those would likely have issues in the 260. Just fyi to the op
Not that anybody asked but... MRAD mags have room to spare jamming 140eld's. Dumb ole .260 pushed them to 2881 out of a 24" tube that's still speeding up, before a tiny bit of pressure showed. That's an off the shelf rifle... 43.7g of H4350
Would I go that route for a dedicated comp rifle? Nope.
Would I go that route for a dedicated comp rifle? Nope.
So staying withing mag length may be an issue w/ the 260? I'm talking 147 gr. bullets. Sounds as if going any heavier (which is the current trend?) will cause issues w/ the 260. Correct?
Also, seems as either are fairly easy to reload for. Does one have an edge in being easier to get consistent velocity on?
Also, seems as either are fairly easy to reload for. Does one have an edge in being easier to get consistent velocity on?
.260
Never did that well and was somewhat of a flop, 6.5 creed will do everything you need and the factory ammo is really good if you don’t reload.
Never did that well and was somewhat of a flop, 6.5 creed will do everything you need and the factory ammo is really good if you don’t reload.
It was only somewhat a flop, it was developed ahead of the trend of fast twists and heavy projectiles..260
Never did that well and was somewhat of a flop, 6.5 creed will do everything you need and the factory ammo is really good if you don’t reload.
It took a long time to get mainstream popularity that by the time appropriate factory ammo and rifles were coming out the 6.5CM was already starting to take over.
It was just like 284win, which was chucked by the original factory rifles and ammo selection. So much so in the 284s case that 6.5-284 became more popular and most people shooting 284win were having to neck 6.5-284 back up to 7mm.
Figured I’d post some info I gathered today. Just in case anyone comes across this thread and wants more info on the 260.
Measured my brand new/unfired hawk hill 260 ATX barrel. Ironically it is identical to my 260 criterion match barrel on my savage. OAL of the rounds are within .002” when touching the lands from both barrels. This is with 142 SMK bullets
I looked at my notes. From my 26” criterion barrel I settled on the groups that were best on the lower end of my testing. To save the brass and barrel a bit. Those loads are running 2835 average and shot 1/2 moa at 300 and 600 for 5 shot groups. Bullets are .010” off the lands
My second node was at 2875 fps. Again .010” off the lands. Which shot just as well as the 2835 fps loads. My speed crept up to 2890 fps with the same loads just testing from touching to .020” off the lands.
I tested loads on fire formed brass up to 2930 fps on the 142 smk. That’s as high as my book shows and I don’t know if I ran into pressure signs there or not. That was many years ago and just can’t recall. I didn’t make a note of pressure in my book though.
This is with
Lapua Brass
H4350
CCI BR2
142 SMK
The criterion and hawk hill are both sammi spec chambers for reference
Now for something interesting and something that is mentioned above and should be taken into consideration when selecting between the 6.5 or 260. The OAL and magazine length. Below are rounds for my criterion barrel but for reference both the criterion and hawk hill would have these rounds seated .010” off the lands.
The pics are best I could get with Magpul pmag (AICS), AICS metal mag and AIAW mag. You’ll notice the Magpul has slightly less room than the metal magazine both in AICS. Easily measured with a caliper as well but the pic shows just how close these bullets run to the limits
The AW magazine however has a considerable amount of space left to seat the bullet out. Well past my needs with these 142 smk bullets.
Just thought I’d share some measurements, magazine concerns and real world speeds here for those still considering a 260.
Measured my brand new/unfired hawk hill 260 ATX barrel. Ironically it is identical to my 260 criterion match barrel on my savage. OAL of the rounds are within .002” when touching the lands from both barrels. This is with 142 SMK bullets
I looked at my notes. From my 26” criterion barrel I settled on the groups that were best on the lower end of my testing. To save the brass and barrel a bit. Those loads are running 2835 average and shot 1/2 moa at 300 and 600 for 5 shot groups. Bullets are .010” off the lands
My second node was at 2875 fps. Again .010” off the lands. Which shot just as well as the 2835 fps loads. My speed crept up to 2890 fps with the same loads just testing from touching to .020” off the lands.
I tested loads on fire formed brass up to 2930 fps on the 142 smk. That’s as high as my book shows and I don’t know if I ran into pressure signs there or not. That was many years ago and just can’t recall. I didn’t make a note of pressure in my book though.
This is with
Lapua Brass
H4350
CCI BR2
142 SMK
The criterion and hawk hill are both sammi spec chambers for reference
Now for something interesting and something that is mentioned above and should be taken into consideration when selecting between the 6.5 or 260. The OAL and magazine length. Below are rounds for my criterion barrel but for reference both the criterion and hawk hill would have these rounds seated .010” off the lands.
The pics are best I could get with Magpul pmag (AICS), AICS metal mag and AIAW mag. You’ll notice the Magpul has slightly less room than the metal magazine both in AICS. Easily measured with a caliper as well but the pic shows just how close these bullets run to the limits
The AW magazine however has a considerable amount of space left to seat the bullet out. Well past my needs with these 142 smk bullets.
Just thought I’d share some measurements, magazine concerns and real world speeds here for those still considering a 260.
Wow! I missed a nostalgic rehash of the which is better shenanigans.
Of course .260 is superior in any way. Unless you prefer regular fish eggs over caviar and Bud light over a good bourbon. And if that’s the case, go ahead and shoot your commoner’s round while the men shoot real calibers…
Of course .260 is superior in any way. Unless you prefer regular fish eggs over caviar and Bud light over a good bourbon. And if that’s the case, go ahead and shoot your commoner’s round while the men shoot real calibers…
A little late but one of the other 3 or 4 70+ years olds still shooting the .260 already posted this.
A few years ago I chose 260 over 6.5C for my AIAT. The rifle has a large firing pin and from the research I had done back then, it seemed that people were getting pierced primers with 6.5C but not with 260. A few years ago it was pretty easy to find prefit AI barrels in 260 but apparently not anymore.
I honestly wish they had specced 260 at 8 twist and marketed it better, Australian defence industries would have been doing 480 round bulk tins of match ammunition as it's a 308 based case. No suck luck with 6.5creedmoor.
I can think of a half-dozen quality gunsmiths that will spin one up for you right now without having to see your rifle. However, you are correct on lack of readily available "stocked" .260 barrels.
I may go the .260 route again on my next AT-X barrel. I had one many years ago on a 700, and loved it.
*****
I have now done my part to keep this thread alive...
If people were getting pierced primers they were using small rifle primer 6.5 Creedmoor brass. It will not happen with factory ammo or with brass that uses large rifle primers.
IMO, the 260 is all but done. I have 2 Custom 260's and lifetime supply Lapua brass. I really like mine!
I picked up Sako S20, Redding dies, 500rds Lapua brass at an auction for a song. I then picked up 700rds 1x fired Hornady brass at a very fair price. The stock suks but the rifle shoots very good.
CM is here to stay. Hornady can market a round like no one else!!
I picked up Sako S20, Redding dies, 500rds Lapua brass at an auction for a song. I then picked up 700rds 1x fired Hornady brass at a very fair price. The stock suks but the rifle shoots very good.
CM is here to stay. Hornady can market a round like no one else!!
480 round tins for 243 and 308, 4 bags of 120 rounds in each, 900 round tins of 223, 30 round blister packs. Have gone up a bit but 223 used to work out about 90c each and 243/308 about $1.50 which is pretty good here.
I've been doing a but of digging, looks like the Australian Outback ammo is now branded as ADI world class, they do some pretty nice options (168gr TMK 308).
I've not seen much of it in NZ but maybe some is coming through as I can see the 55gr SP 223 in stock.
ADI 260 ammo with 130gr SMKs or TMKs would be amazing. I think good factory ammo would bring the 260 back to life as that's really the main advantage 6.5 creed has.
I wonder if it's be worth sending ADI an email about it.
