I’m looking at Tikkas and Bergera arreled actions for a new elk/mule deer gun and was wondering if the velocity loss from a 20” PRC compared to a 24” creed would negate the benefits of the PRC. I don’t reload and will probably be using Hornady or Federal factory offerings in both. I have an old Savage 7mm rem mag but finding any decent stock for it seems to be more costly than a new rifle and I want something more shooter friendly.
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20” 6.5 PRC vs 24” 6.5 CM
- Thread starter adill84
- Start date
The difference in those 2 rifles won't equate to any significant velocity, which will translate to zero actual functional performance.
I shoot a 20" 6.5prc because I have suppressors.
I shoot an 18" 6.5cm because I shoot suppressors.
If you don't have and don't plan to have a suppressor, and those are your only choices, I'd take the creed, with less recoil, cheaper ammo, and double the barrel life. No critter shot with either of those rifles will know the difference..
Factory eldx in my 6.5 prc with 22” proof carbon is averaging 2920, that’s on an impact action and it’s suppressed
You're shooting the exact same bullets at almost the exact same velocity.
It's like having a hammer with a 4' handle and a 1lb head, or a 4lb head and a 1' handle. You're doing the exact same thing. Depending on the particular barrels, either of them could produce faster mv.
A 20" suppressed 6.5 PRC and 24-26" 6.5 Creedmoor are going to be pretty close in overall length, weight, and external ballistics. Unsuppressed, the PRC will be handier...but bring that ear pro.
Unsuppressed, the PRC is going to have about 20% more recoil energy (I just ran the numbers out of curiosity). A good suppressor though will tilt that balance in favor of the PRC.
Unsuppressed, the PRC is going to have about 20% more recoil energy (I just ran the numbers out of curiosity). A good suppressor though will tilt that balance in favor of the PRC.
It really comes down to having a slightly handier OAL in the 20" PRC versus the easier to find ammo and cheaper to shoot Creedmoor. For a deer rifle the difference is meaningless as is the barrel life IMHO. If neither of those categories matters to you then close your eyes and pick one.
Suppressors are a no go for me. The reason I say 20” PRC is Bergara is saying they are going to offer premier barreled actions and for the 6.5 PRC it’s 20” or 26” or a carbon barrel that I believe is 24” but that comes with a price that may put me near a custom barreled action.
I'd stick with the longer 6.5CM then in a Tikka rifle. Factory ammo will be cheaper, the barrel will last at least twice as long, range sessions will be a lot more fun, and recoil/muzzle blast will be a lot easier on you.
I have a Bergara "Premier" Approach (discontinued). There were several issues right out of the box that needed to be addressed. It is an accurate rifle, but this was my one and done with Bergara.
6.5PRC has 27% more case capacity. If you're getting almost the same velocity, you're doing it wrong.
With a 4" difference in barrel length?
Go back and read the question again. Most 6.5prc and 6.5cm barrels are roughly 150-200fps when apples to apples, hack 4" off the prc, and it's a coin toss on which of those two options are faster. So.... what am I doing wrong?
150gr+ projectiles and RL26, VV570, or H1000. The difference isn't 200fps, it is the difference between burn rate categories and 150gr class bullets. Here is QL using the same bullet; 20" 6.5PRC vs 24" 6.5CM. I can run it with different bullets if you want but it doesn't ever get closer. CM doesn't work with the slower powders used in the PRC.
Cartridge : 6.5 PRC
Bullet : .264, 150, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1755
Useable Case Capaci: 60.467 grain H2O = 3.926 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.966 inch = 75.34 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-26 *C
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 86 51.75 2567 2195 45591 15098 99.8 1.312
-09.0 87 52.33 2597 2246 47241 15207 99.9 1.290
-08.0 88 52.90 2627 2298 48945 15306 100.0 1.269
-07.0 89 53.48 2657 2351 50708 15395 100.0 1.248
-06.0 90 54.05 2686 2403 52534 15477 100.0 1.227
-05.0 91 54.63 2716 2456 54423 15557 100.0 1.207
-04.0 92 55.20 2745 2509 56379 15637 100.0 1.187 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 93 55.78 2774 2563 58405 15715 100.0 1.167 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 94 56.35 2803 2617 60503 15792 100.0 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 95 56.93 2832 2671 62677 15868 100.0 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 96 57.50 2861 2725 64928 15942 100.0 1.111 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 150, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1755
Useable Case Capaci: 43.090 grain H2O = 2.798 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350 *T
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 93 36.00 2395 1910 44559 8116 96.4 1.428
-09.0 94 36.40 2420 1950 45959 8202 96.8 1.408
-08.0 95 36.80 2445 1990 47402 8286 97.1 1.388
-07.0 96 37.20 2469 2031 48891 8367 97.4 1.369
-06.0 97 37.60 2494 2072 50427 8446 97.7 1.350
-05.0 98 38.00 2519 2113 52012 8521 98.0 1.331
-04.0 99 38.40 2544 2155 53647 8595 98.3 1.313 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 100 38.80 2568 2197 55335 8665 98.5 1.295 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 101 39.20 2593 2239 57077 8732 98.7 1.277 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 102 39.60 2617 2282 58876 8797 99.0 1.260 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 103 40.00 2642 2324 60733 8858 99.1 1.243 ! Near Maximum !
+01.0 104 40.40 2666 2368 62651 8917 99.3 1.226 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
I'm glad you typed all of that worthless shit that I didn't read. Go look at any factory ammo load you want to, (both using the same length test barrels), and compare 6.5cm to 6.5prc. You'll find quickly that what I've said is correct, and it's in line with what my 2 different ballistic apps with data going back nearly a decade on both cartridges, multiple firearms, multiple barrel lengths, etc.. will also demonstrate.
But thanks for the 2 pages of whatever that was.
You have nearly a decade worth of load data with 6.5PRC? Did you get it with a time machine?
I have 2 time machines. Your mom left hers in my driveway once with a bow on it upon receiving a really mediocre weinering.
The advantage of the PRC will most likely, baring super slow barrel vs super fast barrel, not be eliminated by a 4" shorter barrel than a creed. The 18" 6.5 PRC i have shot over a chronograph averaged around 2800 fps (143 ELD-X hornaday factory). I do NOT have the data infront of me but it was around 100fps faster that a 26" creed shooting 140 handloads.
The 6.5 PRC should probably be faster than the creed excluding extreme outliers. It will also have, as stated above, about 1000 rounds less barrel life, significantly more recoil and possibly light close targets on fire from the fireball.
The 6.5 PRC should probably be faster than the creed excluding extreme outliers. It will also have, as stated above, about 1000 rounds less barrel life, significantly more recoil and possibly light close targets on fire from the fireball.
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I find myself in a similar conundrum. I want a short handy light(ish) weight rifle in a medium caliber. 260REM/6.5CM/7mm08 is kind of what I was thinking. A buddy of mine keeps pushing me towards the 6.5PRC but I don't want to be getting up in recoil quite that high unneccessarily. I have 7RM, 300PRC, 270WIN. I've got heavier hitters. I've got a 260 already that I love, barreled action by LRI. Shoots amazing with 130's and 140's. I've also got a Bergara M40(ish) in 308WIN. Both those guns in those calibers are awesome and kind of what I am after. That 260 by LRI is a Med Palma countour at 24 or 25", so not exactly light and the Bergara M40 is...well, an M40. Its also a tank.
I am of the mind to build an 18" or 20" 7mm-08 and go after deer and shoot targets with it. I think that would be about perfect in my mind. It will have a suppressor on the end of it whatever it is.
I am of the mind to build an 18" or 20" 7mm-08 and go after deer and shoot targets with it. I think that would be about perfect in my mind. It will have a suppressor on the end of it whatever it is.
Are there R700 clone barreled actions with a 22-24” barrels for around the price of a new Bergara or Tikka? The aftermarket stock options for the Tikka is what’s holding me back on them. If anyone has suggestions I’m open to here them
My 20" 6.5prc shooting the same load is 2740. That's a 20" barrel. That's why you can't make declarative statements like that. There is more variability in barrels than the margin between these two proposed situations.The 150fps advantage of the PRC will not be eliminated by a 4" shorter barrel than a creed. The 18" 6.5 PRC is have shot over a chronograph averaged around 2800 fps (143 ELD-X hornaday factory). I do NOT have the data infront of me but it was around 100fps faster that a 26" creed shooting 140 handloads.
The 6.5 PRC will still be faster than the creed. It will also have, as stated above, about 1000 rounds less barrel life, significantly more recoil and possibly light close targets on fire from the fireball.
Which is still faster than the 6.5 creed load from hornaday, which was my point.
The incorrect thinking is the 50 fps per inch that everybody seems to be going off of to assume a 20" PRC will be slower than a 24" Creed. Also to be noted that I never recommended the 20" PRC.
The 150fps advantage of the PRC will not be eliminated by a 4" shorter barrel than a creed. The 18" 6.5 PRC is have shot over a chronograph averaged around 2800 fps (143 ELD-X hornaday factory). I do NOT have the data infront of me but it was around 100fps faster that a 26" creed shooting 140 handloads.
The 6.5 PRC will still be faster than the creed. It will also have, as stated above, about 1000 rounds less barrel life, significantly more recoil and possibly light close targets on fire from the fireball.
My hunt buddy's 20" prc was 2680 with the Hornady factory 143ELDx
I'm not assuming 50 fos per inch, I'm correctly stating that it isn't out of line for 2 identical barrel to shoot 100fps different, so the 2 proposed options are easily in the margin of error. This is a mathematical fact, no matter what your personal barrel does.
I think comparing untuned Quickload estimates without truing data for real measured velocities is mostly for suckers, but this ^ is a hilariously cherry-picked comparison.
Here is what Quickload shows for the top velocity powders in a 20" PRC vs a 24" Creed at SAAMI max pressure.
Cartridge : 6.5 PRC
Bullet : .264, 150, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1755
Useable Case Capaci: 59.123 grain H2O = 3.839 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.955 inch = 75.06 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 76 *C 105.5 61.9 4.01 2924 100.0 65000 17008 1.081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 96.8 56.7 3.68 2857 100.0 65000 15745 1.106 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 517 102.6 59.7 3.87 2853 99.5 65000 16230 1.085 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12 102.5 59.6 3.86 2852 99.6 65000 16197 1.085 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 *C 99.9 55.6 3.60 2848 98.9 65000 16482 1.092 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-25 *C 105.8 57.4 3.72 2848 100.0 65000 15357 1.089 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP *C 98.0 55.7 3.61 2845 100.0 65000 15947 1.099 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 100.1 58.0 3.76 2842 97.9 65000 16635 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC 98.7 55.3 3.58 2841 99.2 65000 15985 1.081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 104.3 55.3 3.58 2841 99.2 65000 15985 1.081 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 150, Sierra HPBT MatchK 1755
Useable Case Capaci: 44.793 grain H2O = 2.908 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.850 inch = 72.39 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 106.8 47.4 3.07 2869 100.0 63000 10626 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP *C 107.0 46.1 2.99 2825 99.8 61907 10731 1.209 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 *C 100.3 44.1 2.86 2805 100.0 63000 9954 1.197 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 *T 97.5 42.2 2.74 2799 100.0 63000 9488 1.199 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC 107.0 45.4 2.94 2791 98.1 62229 10536 1.201 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 96.4 41.8 2.71 2778 100.0 63000 9425 1.207 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Elcho 17 96.4 41.8 2.71 2778 100.0 63000 9425 1.207 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 101.4 40.8 2.64 2771 100.0 63000 9393 1.203 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RL16 TZ *C *T 101.4 40.8 2.64 2771 100.0 63000 9393 1.203 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 *C 107.0 45.1 2.93 2765 97.2 58630 10797 1.238 ! Near Maximum !
No surprise to anyone that's used them that RL-26 is the velocity king and works great in the Creed, RL-16 is on the top 10 velocity list and H4350 isn't. Staball 6.5 would also be on there, but like some other powders, Quickloads profile for Staball is hot garbage and after an email exchange with them mentioning that real data from a variety of cartridges that was a couple hundred fps off of their estimates, they don't seem interested in correcting (the latest update is still wrong).
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That is data from saved cartridges I have shot and verified. 107% fill on the other hand...
..... Is a QL volume estimate, is sometimes a little compressed, sometimes not, but has worked well for me and never presented a problem. If you haven't tried the slower powders in the creed you're missing out.
If it makes you feel better, I left the case volume presets alone, but my actual measurements are closer to 52gr for newer Starline and Peterson and 53.5gr for Hornady. In the Hornady case, the RL-26 max estimate picks up 30 fps and drops to a measly 105.2% fill estimate, RL-16 and RL-17 are both at or under 100% fill estimate.
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I've shot RL26 in 6.5CM. It isn't viable; you have to stretch the COAL and heavily compress it (just like your list says). Of the list of powders you posted, RL16 is the only one viable in 6.5CM. RL17 can work but ends up with a low fill rate and high temp instability. I specifically mentioned other viable powders for PRC if RL26 get you too asshurt. I didn't just grab random powder from QL's top 10 velocity list, I used two of the most commonly used powders for the cartridges discussed (RL26 has been pretty hard to find in the last year, I still have plenty though).
You and the guy with a decade of experience for a cartridge that's been out a little over five years are kind of struggling.
You and the guy with a decade of experience for a cartridge that's been out a little over five years are kind of struggling.
Nonsense, more of your boomer fuddlore and Quickload "experience" masquerading as actual experience trying stuff, just like your Hornady load data conspiracy theories in 6 ARC threads.
I've used RL-26 in Creedmoor with 140s and it works fine, and gives top velocities, sometimes it's compressed, but not overly so in useful loads (btw, 150gr SMK is not a very practical bullet for comparison of deer deer/elk loads). I've burned plenty of H4350, but moved away from it a while ago for RL-16 and Staball 6.5. The fact that you posted an H4350 load as the best that can be done for the Creed in a thread comparing hunting load velocities is either indicative of a lack of actual experience trying other stuff, or cooking the comparison to match your narrative, my money is on the latter, but tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you're just ignorant.
i'm curious if anyone on here has actually shot a 1000 rnds with a 6.5 PRC? what barrel and what was the load and results ? ThanksThe 150fps advantage of the PRC will not be eliminated by a 4" shorter barrel than a creed. The 18" 6.5 PRC is have shot over a chronograph averaged around 2800 fps (143 ELD-X hornaday factory). I do NOT have the data infront of me but it was around 100fps faster that a 26" creed shooting 140 handloads.
The 6.5 PRC will still be faster than the creed. It will also have, as stated above, about 1000 rounds less barrel life, significantly more recoil and possibly light close targets on fire from the fireball.
Hornady 6.5CM ELDM and ELDX factory ammo is loaded with an H4350 analog. I'll leave you to bicker with someone else.
I haven't, but in case it's useful, I did recently see a Hornady podcast where they were talking about cleaning interval and barrel life. They had created a simple formula to estimate needed cleaning interval based on powder load, bore diameter, full power loads/90% loads, etc that also gave an estimated barrel life. It sounds like they have trued the outputs in some way against data from all the barrels in their ballistics testing lab. Anyway, took some screenshots of some of the cartridges I shoot because the excel file itself doesn't seem to be available. PRC and Creed, then Grendel below just for fun.
Yes, not 20" though.
30" Mullerworks 1:7.5
.130FB
150SMK
2.955"
53.6gr RL26
ADG brass
3064FPS
143 ELDX factory ammo goes 3140, 147 ELDM factory ammo goes 3100
153 A-Tip goes the same speed (in my barrel) as 150SMK but explodes randomly.
I've done pressure ladders with 147 ELDM, 142SMK, and a bunch of others in my rifle and others. They track approximately with the load data I've posted above.
I've run the same load through friends 24" PRC with .170FB. The pressure comes down predictably due to the longer throat. .170FB works pretty well with 147ELDM but has a lot of jump for everything else.
My load data starts mid year 2019, about a year after 6.5PRC became publicly available.
Nobody said a decade, I said "nearly a decade". It's been out 6+ years, nearly 7. I didn't go and check George gardeners release date before I ignored your bogus cherrypicked data. I could easily cherry pick my own load data to prove my point, but I have integrity. When comparing load data for the guy and the use case we are discussing, we are talking about factory ammo in factory rifles, not your pierced primer stomped on quickload data. What I said right out of the gate is correct, and you want to argue. Yawn.
unless you're shooting animals 700+ suppressed (very rare, most should not) there's zero benefit in a 6.5 prc. if its 6.5 prc 18-20" cut and suppressed vs not cut and suppressed 24 in 6.5 cm you get a third more recoil with the prcto shoot the same bullets the same velocities. not a good tradeoff. if its same barrel length, same muzzle device you maybe get 125-150 yds more with the 6.5 prc (6.5 cm still good to 600+ depending on DA) with a third more recoil. Not a good trade off either. Nobody shoots a third more recoil better. Get the creedmoor, dial in some 147s and watch shit die.
Ive got solid numbers, real world not cherry picked or QL, the barrel lengths are not same as op but same difference. All the barrels are bart 8tw, all loads are with lapua or adg brass with 140eldm(i have 3400+ of these so use them in my prc). 26" 6.5creed is running 2845 with rl16 and 140eldm. 25" 6.5prc is running 3075fps with h1000 and 140eldm. 22" 6.5prc is running 2950 with h1000 and 140eldm. I'm loading these all the same, as fast as they'll run and maintain bughole groups. In a 1" shorter barrel, the prc has 230fps over the creed. In a 4" shorter barrel, the 6.5prc has a 105fps advantage over the creed.
Ty sry I wasn't clear. could you post your 6.5 cm dope chart as wellfor comparison to the prcs
Thanks for posting your numbers with your reloads. Looks like with a min expansion velocity of 1800fps for the eldm your looking at the approx distances of
6.5 Cm 805 yds
22" prc 875 yds
25" prc 975 yds
One still gets 805 yds with the cm where most shouldn't be taking shots at animals anyways.Is the extra 170 yards worth a third more recoil? For me no way
If expansion distance and recoil were metrics used for picking suitable hunting cartridges there wouldn't be enough magnum rifles sold per year to make them profitably viable for production. Frankly, 6.5CM or 308Win is unnecessary for average hunting distances. Lastly, PRC doesn't make any sense if you're just going to use fast powder and the same bullets found in run of the mill 6.5CM cartridge.
Like I said above, 6.5PRC has a significantly higher case capacity than 6.5CM. 4" of barrel length doesn't equalize them. The difference is meaningless though if you use the PRC where even the 6.5CM is overkill. 338LM isn't superior to 223Rem either if you're just shooting deer at 100 yards or less.
With all that said, when you start stretching the distance things don't always go as planned. More velocity gives you more margin of error for expansion, lethality, wind, and drop. Perhaps your marginal wind call with the slower cartridge means wounding instead of killing. Maybe the .2 mil difference of wind call is a belly shot instead of lung/shoulder from a quartering animal or breeze you didn't see. An advantage is an advantage and you can take that to the field where conditions aren't always ideal.
Nothing wrong with the manbun but the PRC is built to shoot heavier bullets, like 156gr. And I personally don’t want to carry a 26” barrel through the woods.
what's your dope for 156s in your prc? I wouldn't want to carry a 26 in gun either and that's where I said a prc could be a better choice (if you have something cut short and surpressed but still wanted 700+ LR potential)
I think you made that up to support your opinion. 6.5PRC isn't a magnum catridge and recoils less than 308Win with 175SMK factory ammo. "If most...", "...almost the same", "nearly a decade...". This thread has it all.
Wait a min... I appreciated reading all of your input so far. However I disagree with the .308 with factory 175gr SMK being heavier recoiling than the 6.5 PRC with all of your data inputs.
Some guys can't Google ballistics and recoil calculators, but some can
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