AR10 Precision

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 26, 2024

Hopefully this is the correct place to post this question. I've seen precision shooting with an AR10 discuss3d here and on other forums and I've seen mention of having to shoot gas guns differently than a bolt gun. Can anyone point me to some videos or literature that discuss this?

I've been getting somewhat lackluster groupings with my 20" AR10 with Proof Research barrel, and I can't figure out if it's me, the barrel, haven't found the right ammo yet, or too high expectations.

I've tried Hornady ELD-M, Federal Gold Mdeal Match(with SMK and Berger projos), Nosler match. All are bringing out 1.5-2 MOA.

There's a very big possibility that it's a me problem, but if im not shooting the gun correctly I'd rather read or see the right way to shoot a gas gun than waste a shit load of expensive ammo trying to figure it out.

SolidCopper · Dec 26, 2024

My experience with large frame gassers is that if your fundamentals aren’t really consistent and correct, you’ll shoot around the bull. Personally, I quit using a bipod and shoot solely off a bag (get it close to the mag well so you don’t cross load the hand guard and put weird pressure on the barrel nut). Stock solid into shoulder pocket, study your reticle, add trigger pressure till the shot breads, and freeze (for a heartbeat). This is what works for me so your mileage may vary.

AR shooter · Dec 26, 2024

I would recommend getting on you tube and watching snipers hide instruction videos. They've been around a while but nothing has changed. You will learn all the secrets if you listen closely. I think muscles and pressure are your biggest enemies when it comes to large frame accuracy.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 27, 2024

Awesome thanks yall, I'll check out those videos and I'll try shooting off a bag next time. I'll also work on consistency, probably wouldn't hurt to put in a LOT more dry fire practice.

Maggot · Dec 28, 2024

DeadEyeAkc said:
Awesome thanks yall, I'll check out those videos and I'll try shooting off a bag next time. I'll also work on consistency, probably wouldn't hurt to put in a LOT more dry fire practice.

What kind of trigger is in your rifle? That can make a LOT of difference.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 28, 2024

Maggot said:
What kind of trigger is in your rifle? That can make a LOT of difference.

I can't remember what brand, I built the lower a few years ago. I know it was a drop in cassette style trigger pack. I think it's a JP drop in. It's a very light pull, almost no creep, hardly any over travel, nice and smooth. Definitely not a milspec trigger.

isakhnov · Dec 28, 2024

Both my personal build on an AP set, as well as local shop built MATEN have lackluster results ranging at random from MOA to 2 MOA. AP would double group as well. I replaced MATEN upper with V SEVEN Harbinger upper including BCG, and best group was about .5 MOA with the rest between 3/4 and 1 MOA. All with FGM 168s. My last attempt before tearing AP apart is to check V7 BCG on it.

NukeMMC · Dec 28, 2024

Back in the late-80s and early-90s I shot NRA highpower Rifle competition at local and regional matches all the way up thru Interservice and the Nationals. The rifle being shot was the M14/M1A (since I was active duty, I had a double-lugged match M14 and a personal double-lugged M1A that shot very close to the same as each other). A well-built M14/M1a back then would not go out of the armory unless it shot M852 into MOA at 300yds from the test fixture. Some would shoot 3/4MOA, but more often than not they were about 1MOA. Most of the time a Distinguished or Master class shooter could get close to those groups shooting prone, with a sling and the support hand supported by sandbags.

When I first started shooting the AR15 in competition, it was a game-changer. The reduced recoil was impressive but the whole platform felt more like a shooting system. Free floated barrels, slings on the handguard, not on the barrel, etc.

The first time I saw an SR25 was at Dam Neck in the early-90s. The folks there were testing and evaluating them. Those sticks would outshoot the best NM M14s without issue, especially in prone with their free-floated barrels.

But ... shooting a gas gun is not the same as a bolt gun. Not even close. There are moving parts (bolts, bolt carriers, buffers & springs on an AR) that affect your repeatability and follow-up shots. How much affect they have is up to you. Establishing a solid position that relies on bone support, not muscle is the foundation. Getting your body mass in line with the recoil impulse adds structure to the foundation. How do you build the rest of the house? Trigger time. Getting into NRA/CMP competitions will have you learning more about applying fundamentals of Marksmanship to shooting gas guns than you ever thought possible.

Frank has done a few videos on shooting a gas gun:

Sniper's Hide

Owner of Sniper's Hide Website, for the Serious Tactical Marksman We look at training, reviews, new products and bring that information to the masses. Sniper's Hide has been active on the web since 2000 and continue to set the tone for all things precision rifle.

www.youtube.com

bfoosh006 · Dec 29, 2024

May I ask how you shot those various factory loads ?
I am asking because, I am a believer in "seasoning the barrel" to each load.

IE, DO NOT shoot 5rds of one brand, than try another 5rds of the next brand ... etc.

I have seen groups shrink after 5-7rds to season the barrel... then shoot the same brand for precision.

And remember some/most barrels , benefit from a few 100rds being fired through them .. then they shoot better.

Make sure everything is tight. Scope rings and mount, handguard.. etc.

All my Large Frame AR's have preferred to be run wet during break in.

As for the shooting a LFAR best... for me.. a LFAR will reveal all your shooting faults.

Make SURE your parallax is set properly !... https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/the-abcs-of-eliminating-parallax/

Make sure NOTHING is making barrel / gas block contact from your handguard... IE the gas block and barrel , or some attachment is contacting the gas block. ( MLok screw end )

I also prefer a bag over a bipod. , and a back squeeze bag... for slight elevation adjustment.
I use a heavy front bag with a "channel" on the top, and make sure the handguard is well "seated" in that cradle on top.

When shooting off the bench I make sure the recoil is going in a straight back line, no bucking of the muzzle to one side or another.

If you aren't comfortable and in a straight line at the bench... reposition yourself and your rifle.

Once on POA, do not move at all... no fidgeting at all.. no slight re-positioning of yourself or your cheek... if you do move, start over again group wise and rifle position.

You are trying to be as consistently the same while shooting that group.

A good 2 stage trigger, allows me to focus easier on bench fundamentals. And the first stage allows me to "back out of" a shoot if I am not focused.

I don't know how to explain it, but , I have a longer follow through after the hammer drops and the LFAR finishes cycling... again don't fidget remain in your postion.
If your LFAR has bucked off target / POA , it probably wasn't recoiling straight back.

I tend to hold the LFAR reasonably firm in my shoulder pocket. Using my trigger hand to minimize any twisting of the AR.

Breathing... If you are pulling the trigger at the exhale or inhale, that will cause vertical stringing... practice this, Inhale a large full breath, exhale completely, then on the next breathe inhale normally... exhale 1/2 of it relaxed... then pause and pull the trigger.
Just trying that , even while not shooting , you'll see it helps steadiness wise.

I admit, I do shoot better groups without the trigger hands thumb wrapped around the grip... but I am still trying "adjust" to that style at the bench.

https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...ide-long-range-shooting/snipershide-accuracy/

And...

Sorry if the post was kind of rambling... there is so much to shooting a LFAR... stuff just kept coming to me.

GhostFace · Dec 29, 2024

Just to add to the above, I've been shooting large frames almost exclusively since 99, almost.

I have found some large frames tend to shoot better being tight in the shoulder and others not so much. I'd play around with that. It's still firm but not deathly firm.

Also I find that I shoot better if my elbow on the the trigger hand (I'm a righty) is more in line with the stock versus a chicken wing. I theorize it help keeps my trigger finger properly in place to allow a straight pull.

I prefer a bipod on the front versus a bag but that's just me. There's nothing wrong with either. Definitely having a rear bag is a must. Learning to load a bipod is very important.

One of the biggest things is follow through, hold the trigger to rear while the rifle is moving. Don’t start the release until you’re back on target, ready to shoot. Then and only then do you start to release the trigger to reset.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 29, 2024

Thank you everyone for the great info! I'm going to attempt to put all this together next range trip.

SmokeMedic · Dec 29, 2024

Thanks for posting this. I'm on a similar journey with 2 lr308's I put together for my brother and myself last year. We put probably less than 50 rounds on each and got them within a "minute of deer" for this year's hunting trip.

Cheap AAC and solid 180 swift A-frames were both grouping around 1.5 - 2 MOA. I'm hoping to tighten that up this spring by focusing on the fundamentals and perhaps some hand loads.

Let me know what helps you close those groups up, if you don't mind.

Cheers

5RWill · Dec 31, 2024

Not to beat a dead horse, but in a word; Fundamentals. Some of Frank's older videos will go into detail about why, but your fundamentals need to be impeccable if you're really trying to get bolt gun accuracy. The components are also important. Given the OP's parts I'm assuming the barrel will shoot, my experience with proof has always been positive thus far.

So fall back on your fundamentals. Loading the rifle, being square behind the rifle, Trigger finger position, pulling straight to the rear with the pad of your finger, breathing (breaking in respiratory pause), and finally what I think is arguably the most important fundamental of a semi-auto; is follow through. You've got three recoil impulses happening during that some odd split second after the primer is detonated. Carrier is unlocking, travels the length resistance of the recoil spring to stop, and then slams home, this requires so much more consistency on your part than a bolt gun.

I'm by no means an expert either. Just sharing my experiences. This is the first 5 shot group out of my LMT with AAC 175gr OTM. Could i replicate that consistently? No i don't think so. Do i think the rifle is capable. Yes, yes i do.

Another argument could be had though. Rather than try and achieve bolt rifle accuracy out of these things lets just say even the most expensive systems are on average 1-1.5 MOA shooters, discounting maybe Seekins and Larue. Which for the most part these uber expensive contract guns are just that. Is that going to be the limiting factor in your impact on target downrange? Not in the slightest. It'll be your windcall and fundamentals. I know I know, it's crazy right? To spend all this money on super expensive firearms which on the other end of the spectrum in bolt rifles will net you 1/4 MOA groups with the right shooter and on the LFG side of things you're sitting at 1-1.5 MOA. Preposterous right? Maybe a little, but either way I find it interesting.

SolidCopper · Dec 31, 2024

I’d like to add one final thing for LFAR shooting. I don’t move my firing-side thumb to the trigger finger side of the grip like I do with a bolt gun (ie on a thumb shelf). I found that my potential to “bump fire” is increased if I do. I understand that this is a product of incorrect body position/recoil management but just the same, if you are moving rapidly in a tactical environment, you can’t always assume an ideal position. I grip the grip normally and in a way that promotes trigger finger isolation. I understand this may not be the way you’d employ this rifle so take this for what it’s worth.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 31, 2024

SmokeMedic said:
Thanks for posting this. I'm on a similar journey with 2 lr308's I put together for my brother and myself last year. We put probably less than 50 rounds on each and got them within a "minute of deer" for this year's hunting trip.

Cheap AAC and solid 180 swift A-frames were both grouping around 1.5 - 2 MOA. I'm hoping to tighten that up this spring by focusing on the fundamentals and perhaps some hand loads.

Let me know what helps you close those groups up, if you don't mind.

Cheers

Well I'm a poor so idk when I'll get it back to the range, but I'll try to remember to update this thread with progress.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 31, 2024

SolidCopper said:
I’d like to add one final thing for LFAR shooting. I don’t move my firing-side thumb to the trigger finger side of the grip like I do with a bolt gun (ie on a thumb shelf). I found that my potential to “bump fire” is increased if I do. I understand that this is a product of incorrect body position/recoil management but just the same, if you are moving rapidly in a tactical environment, you can’t always assume an ideal position. I grip the grip normally and in a way that promotes trigger finger isolation. I understand this may not be the way you’d employ this rifle so take this for what it’s worth.

I'll absolutely take that into consideration. I've been shooting it like you mentioned, not wrapping my thumb around the grip keeping it on the same side as the trigger finger resting it on the safety selector. I'll give both a try and see what I like better.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 31, 2024

bfoosh006 said:
May I ask how you shot those various factory loads ?
I am asking because, I am a believer in "seasoning the barrel" to each load.

IE, DO NOT shoot 5rds of one brand, than try another 5rds of the next brand ... etc.

I have seen groups shrink after 5-7rds to season the barrel... then shoot the same brand for precision.

And remember some/most barrels , benefit from a few 100rds being fired through them .. then they shoot better.

Make sure everything is tight. Scope rings and mount, handguard.. etc.

All my Large Frame AR's have preferred to be run wet during break in.

As for the shooting a LFAR best... for me.. a LFAR will reveal all your shooting faults.

Make SURE your parallax is set properly !... https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/the-abcs-of-eliminating-parallax/

Make sure NOTHING is making barrel / gas block contact from your handguard... IE the gas block and barrel , or some attachment is contacting the gas block. ( MLok screw end )

I also prefer a bag over a bipod. , and a back squeeze bag... for slight elevation adjustment.
I use a heavy front bag with a "channel" on the top, and make sure the handguard is well "seated" in that cradle on top.

When shooting off the bench I make sure the recoil is going in a straight back line, no bucking of the muzzle to one side or another.

If you aren't comfortable and in a straight line at the bench... reposition yourself and your rifle.

Once on POA, do not move at all... no fidgeting at all.. no slight re-positioning of yourself or your cheek... if you do move, start over again group wise and rifle position.

You are trying to be as consistently the same while shooting that group.

A good 2 stage trigger, allows me to focus easier on bench fundamentals. And the first stage allows me to "back out of" a shoot if I am not focused.

I don't know how to explain it, but , I have a longer follow through after the hammer drops and the LFAR finishes cycling... again don't fidget remain in your postion.
If your LFAR has bucked off target / POA , it probably wasn't recoiling straight back.

I tend to hold the LFAR reasonably firm in my shoulder pocket. Using my trigger hand to minimize any twisting of the AR.

Breathing... If you are pulling the trigger at the exhale or inhale, that will cause vertical stringing... practice this, Inhale a large full breath, exhale completely, then on the next breathe inhale normally... exhale 1/2 of it relaxed... then pause and pull the trigger.
Just trying that , even while not shooting , you'll see it helps steadiness wise.

I admit, I do shoot better groups without the trigger hands thumb wrapped around the grip... but I am still trying "adjust" to that style at the bench.

https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...ide-long-range-shooting/snipershide-accuracy/

And...

Sorry if the post was kind of rambling... there is so much to shooting a LFAR... stuff just kept coming to me.

So as far as not shooting different brands one after the other what would be the recommendation? Clean the barrel between brands? As in removing all the copper from the barrel instead of just removing carbon? Not that it matters much but that changes the round count from 5 to 15 to get the barrel seasoned, I'd have to do all this at the range or it'll take me a whole month to find the right ammo for my rifle.

bfoosh006 · Dec 31, 2024

DeadEyeAkc said:
So as far as not shooting different brands one after the other what would be the recommendation? Clean the barrel between brands? As in removing all the copper from the barrel instead of just removing carbon? Not that it matters much but that changes the round count from 5 to 15 to get the barrel seasoned, I'd have to do all this at the range or it'll take me a whole month to find the right ammo for my rifle.

To put this in context... when I have been chrono testing , multiple factory loads and shooting 10rd groups. I stumbled onto it.

It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but enough to see happen over and over.

No barrel cleaning , between factory loads. And frankly I didn't realize this would happen... so I never bothered to clean the bore.

FWIW... I noticed it during a 9hr day at the bench , while testing a poop ton of .223/5.56 through a 16" and 20"

I was trying to maximize my shooting time when doing both groups and velocities. .... IE Chrono data and group size at the same time.

Almost all of them would shrink in group size by quite a bit after the 5-6rd of a new/next factory load. Or maybe better said the load would settle into the barrel.

After seeing it happen quite often,from both barrels, I decided to fire 5rds as throwaways and then fire for group size.

I was a little surprised to see it happen so often after adopting that "policy"

FWIW...The CMP used to have a list of what powders NOT to use after another.... because of this very reason.. they needed to be "compatible" with the previous other load.
That list was developed by the seat of their pants discovery... trial and error.

I will look and see if I can find the dated list I have saved somewhere on my computer.

DeadEyeAkc · Dec 31, 2024

bfoosh006 said:
To put this in context... when I have been chrono testing , multiple factory loads and shooting 10rd groups. No barrel cleaning , between factory loads. And frankly I didn't realize this would happen... so I never bothered to clean the bore.

FWIW... I noticed it during a 9hr day at the bench , while testing a poop ton of .223/5.56 through a 16" and 20"

I was trying to maximize my shooting time when doing both groups and velocities. .... IE Chrono data and group size at the same time.

Almost all of them would shrink in group size by quite a bit after the 5-6rd of a new/next factory load. Or maybe better said the load would settle into the barrel.

After seeing it happen quite often,from both barrels, I decided to fire 5rds as throwaways and then fire for group size.

I was a little surprised to see it happen so often after adopting that "policy"

The CMP used to have a list of what powders NOT to use after another.... because of this very reason.. they needed to be "compatible" with the previous other load.
That list was developed by the seat of their pants discovery... trial and error.

I will look and see if I can find the dated list I have saved somewhere on my computer.

I think I understand. No barrel cleaning required, just fire about 5ish rounds of the next manufacturer before shooting for a group. Thanks for the insight! I never would have guessed.

bfoosh006 · Dec 31, 2024

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp...match?t=194007&highlight=powder+compatibility

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp...-powders-not-to-use-after-another#post1843658

Buck Wilde · Dec 31, 2024

Another vote for the Sniper's Hide videos. I took a precision rifle course with an LAR308, and although the instructors were snipers who did an excellent job showing people how to run bolt guns, they didn't seem to know how to shoot gas guns well. The videos make the differences clear. Don't try to avoid spending the money by asking questions here. Just watch the videos. And take notes so you don't have to pay to watch them again when you forget things.

Maggot · Jan 1, 2025

5RWill said:
Not to beat a dead horse, but in a word; Fundamentals. Some of Frank's older videos will go into detail about why, but your fundamentals need to be impeccable if you're really trying to get bolt gun accuracy. The components are also important. Given the OP's parts I'm assuming the barrel will shoot, my experience with proof has always been positive thus far.

So fall back on your fundamentals. Loading the rifle, being square behind the rifle, Trigger finger position, pulling straight to the rear with the pad of your finger, breathing (breaking in respiratory pause), and finally what I think is arguably the most important fundamental of a semi-auto; is follow through. You've got three recoil impulses happening during that some odd split second after the primer is detonated. Carrier is unlocking, travels the length resistance of the recoil spring to stop, and then slams home, this requires so much more consistency on your part than a bolt gun.

I'm by no means an expert either. Just sharing my experiences. This is the first 5 shot group out of my LMT with AAC 175gr OTM. Could i replicate that consistently? No i don't think so. Do i think the rifle is capable. Yes, yes i do.

View attachment 8579922

Another argument could be had though. Rather than try and achieve bolt rifle accuracy out of these things lets just say even the most expensive systems are on average 1-1.5 MOA shooters, discounting maybe Seekins and Larue. Which for the most part these uber expensive contract guns are just that. Is that going to be the limiting factor in your impact on target downrange? Not in the slightest. It'll be your windcall and fundamentals. I know I know, it's crazy right? To spend all this money on super expensive firearms which on the other end of the spectrum in bolt rifles will net you 1/4 MOA groups with the right shooter and on the LFG side of things you're sitting at 1-1.5 MOA. Preposterous right? Maybe a little, but either way I find it interesting.

Who is that in the first video, Jacob Bynum?

5RWill · Jan 1, 2025

Maggot said:
Who is that in the first video, Jacob Bynum?

Yup old rifles only video. Had to dig a little to find that one.

Ex E6 · Jan 1, 2025

DeadEyeAkc said:
I think I understand. No barrel cleaning required, just fire about 5ish rounds of the next manufacturer before shooting for a group. Thanks for the insight! I never would have guessed.

I don't know what no barrel cleaning required means ?.

ANYTIME regardless of weapon bolt or gas . I park the rig on sand bags ,fire #1 fouling shot on a clean bore .

Now as I reload , I'll take #15 rounds of a particular bullet style and weight . #5 lower velocity , #5 Mid-range velocity and #5 upper range velocity . I will fire all of one particular velocity at a point on MY target . Clean bore Repeat until all shots are down on target .

This evaluates harmonics within the bore ,as one group usually shows it's accuracy . Regardless of which range of velocity I'll fine tune that bullet to that particular powder . It doesn't mean I won't try additional powders or bullets styles or weights . Simply gives ME Data I can rely on for what I'm shooting .

Without a clean bore to begin ,it's a cluster fuck guessing game ,as to IF the barrel is capable . IMO

Aero Platform Ballistics 22.5 barrel #20 rounds into .404 at 278 yd. off sand bags ,say what you will but it works for ME .

bfoosh006 · Sunday at 4:38 AM

Ex E6 said:
I don't know what no barrel cleaning required means ?.

ANYTIME regardless of weapon bolt or gas . I park the rig on sand bags ,fire #1 fouling shot on a clean bore .

Now as I reload , I'll take #15 rounds of a particular bullet style and weight . #5 lower velocity , #5 Mid-range velocity and #5 upper range velocity . I will fire all of one particular velocity at a point on MY target . Clean bore Repeat until all shots are down on target .

This evaluates harmonics within the bore ,as one group usually shows it's accuracy . Regardless of which range of velocity I'll fine tune that bullet to that particular powder . It doesn't mean I won't try additional powders or bullets styles or weights . Simply gives ME Data I can rely on for what I'm shooting .

Without a clean bore to begin ,it's a cluster fuck guessing game ,as to IF the barrel is capable . IMO

Aero Platform Ballistics 22.5 barrel #20 rounds into .404 at 278 yd. off sand bags ,say what you will but it works for ME .

I understand... but I was saying all this if the OP was testing one round after another. Without cleaning.

I also have gotten my best groups from a clean bore. ( Grudgingly, Lol )

10rds, 100yrds, bagged, benched, scoped.. etc. Hornady AG 140gr 6.5CM

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (2).jpg

10rds 155gr Hornady AG , same benched setups...
And yes , I flubbed the flyer's... I got to giddy.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...jpg

Ex E6 · Sunday at 7:21 PM

As a Point of fact which I often see misrepresented on the internet is single and Dbl based powder burn rates ,stating single based powders burn faster . NOT true . Several factors come to play with various smokeless powders ,ignition deterrents anti static coatings Etc.
Generally single based powders do leave less residue . Dbl based powders also produce a more even and useful pressure curves . Which are preferred in larger Rifle cases ,especially Magnum calibers .

Fact : Nitroglycerin burn rate is faster than nitrocellulose ,averages respectively 25,472 fps. , 21,877 . Fairly slow compared to say Det cord 22,000- near 30,000 fps.

Carry On .

Having trouble using the site?

AR10 Precision

Private

Supporter

Private

Private

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"

Private

Private

Chlanna Nan Con Thigibh A’ So ‘S Gheibh Sibh Feòil

Sergeant

Verified Asshole

Private

Private

Optics Fiend

Supporter

Private

Private

Private

Sergeant

Private

Sergeant

Sergeant of the Hide

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"

Optics Fiend

Problem Solver = Equation

Attachments

Sergeant

Problem Solver = Equation

Similar threads