Berger Ammo vs their projectiles?

aLOTtoLearn41 · Dec 25, 2024

I am admittedly new to the precision long range world, however from reading, I have learned a couple things. 1) Berger projectiles are THE top choice for PRS shooters. 2) When testing ammo to find a potential starting point for reloading and/or an accurate factory load for general purpose use, even Federal GMM can't get Berger bullets to shoot without at least one flyer in a 5 shot group. This is through both sub moa gas guns and sub half moa bolt guns shooting 308, 6.5 CM, and 338 LM.
I can't call wind, but my fundamentals are good enough to ring steel at a mile with a good spotter.
Can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong here? Berger bullets are supposed to be that which we build our precision loading world around. Why am I seeing this out of multiple rifles and multiple loads? All of which can "spank the pants off" Berger bullets either loaded by Berger or by Federal with other factory loads. For reference, I've shot AAC 6.5 Creedmoor 140 gr Sierra MK with MV SD's of 26+ into smaller groups than Berger or Federal loaded Berger 140 Hybrids. The contradiction in that sentence wants to make my brain bleed.

tinker · Dec 31, 2024

The difference isn't THAT great between berger and other good bullets. Yes they are more consistent but it's not night and day.

If you are shooting "factory ammo" loaded by anyone (federal etc) that has berger bullets you are still not going to have ammo as consistent and handloads. Neck tension and powder charge are pretty much the biggest factors in consistency. I can't say for certain but I would presume that federal is not running a mandrel and brushing necks etc on production ammo. Also, while I have not tested it, I am sure if you dumped a bunch of factory match ammo the powder won't be the tenth.

I don't shoot factory ammo to decide what bullet to use. I pick a bullet I know will do well (I shoot a lot of SMK in 140gr for creedmoor though recently starting shooting bergers too).

Pick a bullet, get to a decent velocity and then work on seating depth. If your fundamentals are squared away it will shoot.

For the record I routinely have one flyer in my 5 shot groups, but it's me. I am working on it.

JustSendit · Dec 31, 2024

Man I dunno dude Berger/Fed factory ammo is shooting poorly out of all your rifles I think that’s kind of wild. In my experience, all my yellow box ammo groups sub moa and SDs under 10. That’s with a lot of different cartridges too. I also know most people experience this phenomenon.

But paper is paper and chronos are chronos.. if ammo X shoots tighter and has lower SDs, then they’re better for you. In my opinion paper really doesn’t lie, group at 300 and make a determination then don’t look back.

Edit: or group at 100.. I just think I see more at 300 when I’m getting down to selection of my ammo.

Shoots 700's · Dec 31, 2024

Berger factory ammo shoots great for me.

TheOE800 · Dec 31, 2024

I haven’t been impressed with Berger factory loaded ammo, statistically, in any of my guns. The observed SD and ES have been no better than other match ammo, except new Hornady which I don’t bother with anyway. You do get Lapua brass when you’re done shooting it though, so there’s that.

Shoots 700's · Dec 31, 2024

I shot their .223 77 grain ammo for the brass in a prs match and it shot really well

tinker · Dec 31, 2024

TheOE800 said:
I haven’t been impressed with Berger factory loaded ammo, statistically, in any of my guns. The observed SD and ES have been no better than other match ammo, except new Hornady which I don’t bother with anyway. You do get Lapua brass when you’re done shooting it though, so there’s that.

I bought a few hundred rounds just for that reason. Avg of .7 something if I recall for factory out of one of my guns.

Hickswr · Jan 2, 2025

You failed to define “flyer” or mention the actual group size.

K80/6.5 · Jan 2, 2025

Break your barrel in with Berger ammo then you have 200 cases of Lapua fired formed brass ready to go. At least it sounds good in theory.

schmi015 · Jan 3, 2025

I'll be the honest one with you, you're jerking the trigger. Welcome to the Hide.

Nik H · Jan 5, 2025

I shoot FGMM 6.5 loaded with the Berger 130 OTM out of my AT. I never have any issues with it. I have shot at least a thousand rounds and have never got one flyer. I have also shot hundreds of rounds of the Berger cartridge using their 140 Hybrid target bullet out of my AXMC. I have nothing but good to say about Berger cartridges and bullets.

If flyers are occurring from multiple rifles, I would check the fundamentals.

Emerson0311 · Jan 5, 2025

Nik H said:
I shoot FGMM 6.5 loaded with the Berger 130 OTM out of my AT. I never have any issues with it. I have shot at least a thousand rounds and have never got one flyer.

I have also shot hundreds of rounds of the Berger cartridge using their 140 Hybrid target bullet out of my AXMC. I have nothing but good to say about Berger cartridges and bullets.

If flyers are occurring from multiple rifles, I would check the fundamentals.

And also define “flyer”. A 5 shot group at 300 with [email protected] and 5@ 0.7MOA is not really a “flyer”. In my case, 6.5 CM, 144 LRHT, S&B brass.

Nik H · Jan 5, 2025

Emerson0311 said:
And also define “flyer”. A 5 shot group at 300 with [email protected] and 5@ 0.7MOA is not really a “flyer”. In my case, 6.5 CM, 144 LRHT, S&B brass.

Great point! When I think of a flyer, it is a clear deviation from the rest.

Happens to me occasionally. I shoot four into a great group and choke on the 5th...LOL. I always know it's me.

HD1911 · Jan 5, 2025

The most consistent two factory 6.5cm loads I have ever shot where the FGMM 130gr Berger and the Berger loaded 130gr Berger. Talk about lights out, scary small groups, and super low ES & SD.

I would say the next best two were then the 140gr Berger hybrid bullet loads from both those same companies.

If your rifle won’t shoot any of those loads well at all, then either your rifle is the problem, or you are.

aLOTtoLearn41 · Jan 6, 2025

Thanks everyone. Yep, know some of it's me. Try to call those when I can. For reference because I forgot to mention, I'm usually happy with bolt gun 100 yard groups when they start getting below 1/2 moa, and I'm calling flyers anything that pops up at least an inch from the group's cluster. For the 6.5 CM the best factory loads I've found so far are Hornady 140 ELDMs and Desert Tech 140 BTHPs. The FGMM SMKs did ok too but wasn't the rifle's favorite.

Side note, does anyone trim Berge 6.5 144 LRHTs? Picked up a box to test with and l know their already pointed, but wow those meplats are pointing all over the place. Can find much online about it. I've been told "eh don't worry about it, but also how far are you shooting?" I'm pushing out to a mile. Debating also trying some Hornady 135 ATIPs.

Shoots 700's · Jan 6, 2025

those 144's shoot just fine

Nik H · Jan 6, 2025

aLOTtoLearn41 said:
Thanks everyone. Yep, know some of it's me. Try to call those when I can. For reference because I forgot to mention, I'm usually happy with bolt gun 100 yard groups when they start getting below 1/2 moa, and I'm calling flyers anything that pops up at least an inch from the group's cluster. For the 6.5 CM the best factory loads I've found so far are Hornady 140 ELDMs and Desert Tech 140 BTHPs. The FGMM SMKs did ok too but wasn't the rifle's favorite.

Side note, does anyone trim Berge 6.5 144 LRHTs? Picked up a box to test with and l know their already pointed, but wow those meplats are pointing all over the place. Can find much online about it. I've been told "eh don't worry about it, but also how far are you shooting?" I'm pushing out to a mile. Debating also trying some Hornady 135 ATIPs.

You're shooting a 6.5 CM 144 grain to a mile?

eastexsteve · Jan 7, 2025

JustSendit said:
Man I dunno dude Berger/Fed factory ammo is shooting poorly out of all your rifles I think that’s kind of wild. In my experience, all my yellow box ammo groups sub moa and SDs under 10. That’s with a lot of different cartridges too. I also know most people experience this phenomenon.

Some of it can be the gun. Although FGMM is considered the gold standard, some rifles like other rounds better. I have a 24" barrel .308 bolt gun that shoots the old Magtech 168gr like a laser beam. It won't do it with FGMM 168s. The sad part about it is I bought a bunch of that cheap ammo when it was 60 cents/round, and I don't have many rounds left. I can also verify that FGMM loaded with Berger 185 juggernauts in .308 is a toasty load. But, it seems to shoot very well out of my bolt gun out to 1000. That's as far as I have room to shoot.

JustSendit · Jan 7, 2025

eastexsteve said:
Some of it can be the gun. Although FGMM is considered the gold standard, some rifles like other rounds better. I have a 24" barrel .308 bolt gun that shoots the old Magtech 168gr like a laser beam. It won't do it with FGMM 168s. The sad part about it is I bought a bunch of that cheap ammo when it was 60 cents/round, and I don't have many rounds left. I can also verify that FGMM loaded with Berger 185 juggernauts in .308 is a toasty load. But, it seems to shoot very well out of my bolt gun out to 1000. That's as far as I have room to shoot.

I’d have to reread the OP but I think he insinuated Berger box ammo didn’t work in numerous rifles both bolt and gas and multiple calibers. Which kinda sucks but it’s also kind of an outlier, from my experience at least.

Nik H · Jan 7, 2025

JustSendit said:
I’d have to reread the OP but I think he insinuated Berger box ammo didn’t work in numerous rifles both bolt and gas and multiple calibers. Which kinda sucks but it’s also kind of an outlier, from my experience at least.

A complete outlier in my experience.

aLOTtoLearn41 · Sunday at 10:48 AM

Nik H said:
You're shooting a 6.5 CM 144 grain to a mile?

Yep. Fortunately have a place. 6.5 cm and 338 lm.

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Berger Ammo vs their projectiles?

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