I have had the annealeez for a few years, but if I had to buy again I would buy the ugly. It seems to be better built. I see some people recommend the EP but for me I wouldn't even consider one without some type of hopper to feed them.
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Which Flame Annealer?
- Thread starter Kickin45
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Got the Bench source and Ugly, If you got the money get the Bench source. Fit and Finish is what you get, Bench source is super to adjust and you never have to play with screws and bushings to make it work.
What Regulator do you recommend? My Bernzomatic UL2317 pencil flame torches wouldn't light with a 20PSI Reg it apparently wasn't enough to force the torches check valve open.
I neglected to mention I restore ductility or partial anneal after every #3 Rd. shot . IMO partial annealing isn't required after each firing .
It generally requires 3-5 firings before work hardening is noticeable .
One if not the foremost Metallurgist in the world on annealing cartridge brass . NONE of us are Annealing our cases !.
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Figures 7a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 482°C (900°F): – 15 min. has fully recrystallized the FCC grain structure, but it has a duplex grain size distribution; 60 min. has increased the grain size. Tint etched with Klemm’s III.
Figure 8a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50% and annealed at 704°C (1300°F) – 30 min. producing a fully recrystallized, and grown, equiaxed FCC grain structure with annealing twins.
It generally requires 3-5 firings before work hardening is noticeable .
One if not the foremost Metallurgist in the world on annealing cartridge brass . NONE of us are Annealing our cases !.
https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
Figures 7a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50%, annealed at 482°C (900°F): – 15 min. has fully recrystallized the FCC grain structure, but it has a duplex grain size distribution; 60 min. has increased the grain size. Tint etched with Klemm’s III.
Figure 8a and b: Microstructure of wrought cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, cold reduced 50% and annealed at 704°C (1300°F) – 30 min. producing a fully recrystallized, and grown, equiaxed FCC grain structure with annealing twins.
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I got this one from a barbecue supply store in Texas. I probably paid too much but it is high-quality. If you’re handy with these things, you could splice one together yourself or have the local propane shop do it
This is just my experience and opinion.
IMO you need a machine to get a consistent anneal... those that use a handheld drill method..... I'm sorry but the location of the flame and consistent time in the flame isn't consistent... machine will get you that consistent anneal.
I've used annealers with hoppers and got tired of swapping out parts and by the time I fiddled around with swapping parts and filling a hopper WITH bridging issues and brass not spinning correctly, I was already well into annealing with the EP 2.0 annealer. Especially if you're like me and usually reload 100pcs or less (most hopper annealers usually can't hold more than that anyway depending on size of case). Having a hopper doesn't make it a faster process. If it takes XYZ time to flame base anneal XYZ brass, then having a hopper is just something you need to fill up and then start the process of annealing. Not like you can fill up a hopper and go mow the yard while you have an open flame. You still need to watch the process. If it takes 5 to 6 seconds to flame base anneal XYZ case with a single torch then it still takes 5 to 6 seconds to anneal XYZ case regardless if it has a hopper or not. Just for example..100 anneals at about ~6 seconds each is 600 seconds. 600 divided by 60 seconds is 10 minutes which is a drop in the reloading time bucket IMO. You're still handing each pc of brass.
If you need to pick up the brass and manually orientate the brass in the right direction and fill up a hopper and then change out parts to go from cartridge to cartridge then IMO it doesnt really matter if its single feed or has a hopper, and I'll take the speed of the EP 2.0 change over from cartridge to cartridge that can go from 5.7x28 (down to about 1" inch long which is hard for a lot of annealers) /17hornet size casings to 50 bmg, rim or no rim it doesn't matter, and adjust in seconds without having to add or remove any parts. Very very small footprint also. Pure KISS method.
Now,,,,,,,, if the annealer had a case feeder where you don't need to orientate the brass manually and the machine can orientate and feed the brass for you where you're throwing in handfuls of brass,,,, then that's a whole different story but to get a case feeder (not a hopper = big difference), and can adjust from 5.7 to 50bmg on the case feeder too = cost money and would be very complex... once again just keep it simple stupid IMO.
As a side note, I wouldn't want my torch head mounted... for the sole reason of going from cartridge to different cartridge size. It's fast and easy. Move it, leave it, and forget it...
For someone that has used both,,,, it's my experience and hopefully this helps & why the EP 2.0 doesn't have a hopper = IMO it is really not needed and I'll take the ease of adjusting from different size casings with no extra parts / no tools needed. I just found myself not using my annealer with a hopper & kept on using my OG 1.0 DIY annealer = the EP 2.0 just made it adjustable with no tools needed.
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I get probably an AVERAGE of 20 reloads on $1+ a piece brass. Loosing tension in primer pockets is the only reason I toss it. Since I started annealing I don’t think I’ve thrown one piece away because the neck split. I run 600 pieces per cartridges I shoot, and that makes a flame annealer pay for itself in a year, and I could even justify an AMP, though the flame does what I want, which is essentially making an $800 investment last twice as long.
I have the Giraud with a massive hopper. I load it with several hundred 223 or 308 and let it rip.
Not only faster/easier but saves me the mental torture of doing volume by hand
If it’s 338, 375, or 50 BMG, I’m willing to g to suck it up and do them by hand on the AMP
Not only faster/easier but saves me the mental torture of doing volume by hand
If it’s 338, 375, or 50 BMG, I’m willing to g to suck it up and do them by hand on the AMP
One thing I figured out yesterday by accident that should have been obvious much sooner, is that with my Giraud and the regulator, I can change the pressure and leave the dwelltime the same to account for differences in brass. For example, my 308 Hornady brass was 8.5 seconds at 3/4 of an inch torch head from neck and 20 psi. For a Lapua 260 case, that was going to be like a 14 second dwelltime so I turned up the PSI to 26, and it took the dual time right down to nine seconds.
So I think from now on, I am going to shoot for an eight second dwelltime and just adjust the PSI for whatever case I’m annealing
At some point, the torch probably maxes out, but I haven’t experimented to find out what PSI that is yet
So I think from now on, I am going to shoot for an eight second dwelltime and just adjust the PSI for whatever case I’m annealing
At some point, the torch probably maxes out, but I haven’t experimented to find out what PSI that is yet
The hottest portion of the flame is 1/16- 3/32" in front of the inner blue cone , are you getting any brass discoloration at all ?.
It's hard to see and I'm wondering if any of your shoulders are benefiting whatsoever , as the flame is mid throat on necks .
Not trying to criticize just helpful . Photo attached is Lapua Factory Brass ,which has been polished after partial annealing and you can clearly see where I pen ink marked and above is still discolored . From neck mouth down 0.510- 0.5680" is visibly discolored .
Here's a link that shows what brass should look like after partial annealing . Here's a video showing an actual case being partial annealed ,using their induction heater . " Note the color of the brass prior and after partial annealing takes place :
https://www.ambrell.com/hubfs/Ambrell_PDFs/411-0124-10.pdf
https://www.ambrell.com/induction-heating-videos/annealing-ammunition-casings
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It just so happens that that's about how far my inner blue flame is from the necks. I find that trying to gauge "just the tip" - the location of the tip depends on the lighting.
I don't really care too much about my shoulders, I only bump them .001
I know how you feel about color, I've read all your posts. THanks for your input!
I don't really care too much about my shoulders, I only bump them .001
I know how you feel about color, I've read all your posts. THanks for your input!
I’m still deciding between an AMP and a Bench Source. I’m no expert ELR shooter yet, but I’m getting into it and acquiring what I need from the start. Buy once cry once. It seems that to get the best most repeatable results with the Bench Source I will need a 2 stage propane regulator. Anyone familiar with a high quality unit and cost? Having built high quality C02 regulators that cost $350-$500… adding that to the cost of the Bench Source makes an AMP the obvious choice. I just want to be sure I’m not spending $1700 when the $700 Bench Source and a $150 regulator would do what I needed. If we are looking at $300+ for the regulator, the AMP for me is the obvious choice.
Can't speak to the bench source. But I started with the burstfire and it works fine. I was drawn into the AMP and it works better for annealing, but I haven't bought every collet yet and still use the flame annealer for some cases. I don't feel I'm giving up a ton by doing so. Although I'm glad I have my amp annealer.
I would not pay $700 for a flame annealer unless it had auto feed. I would just go straight to AMP
I borrowed this video from a poster here on the Hide ; Cherry Red ,His words and observations . Exactly why I don't run an induction anneal-er ,can't reliably feed it so it self runs . Otherwise You bet ya quick precise enough .
^ that sounds like an absolute cluster fuck with the Dylan case feed
And if you don’t have a reliable feeding mechanism, that thing is a primitive version of the AMP that cost just as much.
Hard no.
ETA: sometimes my Giraud chokes on itself and leaves a case on the slider tray in the flame - it gets stuck. It only smokes that one case till you unbind it. I remember it doing that once in 15+ years. Overall, I'm happy with the Giraud. The real thing that sucks is if you have to change the slider tray thing for a longer case. I use the .223 slider tray for 223 sized cases and 308 sized cases, so I never have to change it. It was a PITA when I used to go up to 338 and 50 BMG - so now I use the AMP for the bigger (lower volume) stuff.
And if you don’t have a reliable feeding mechanism, that thing is a primitive version of the AMP that cost just as much.
Hard no.
ETA: sometimes my Giraud chokes on itself and leaves a case on the slider tray in the flame - it gets stuck. It only smokes that one case till you unbind it. I remember it doing that once in 15+ years. Overall, I'm happy with the Giraud. The real thing that sucks is if you have to change the slider tray thing for a longer case. I use the .223 slider tray for 223 sized cases and 308 sized cases, so I never have to change it. It was a PITA when I used to go up to 338 and 50 BMG - so now I use the AMP for the bigger (lower volume) stuff.
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Man, you can't even ask about machines without the annealing shit starting. Everyone has the "best method" but nobody can actually prove why their way is better.
How does turning your regulator up and down differ from turning the adjustment on your torch head up and down?
I presume that it is more precise because it's a measured pressure, rather than guessing how far I've turned the torch head (which doesn't have index marks) each time
I use the Ugly.
I don't have anything to compare it to aside from the drill/torch method.
Price was right. Setup is easy. Has a hopper that will hold 100 or more 300 Win Mag or several hundred Lake City 5.56 cases.
On the occasion that I go to the public range I usually bring home at least one plastic grocery bag half full of 5.56/.223 brass.
If all I loaded for was the Win Mag then I might look at an AMP. But with [several] gas guns to load for I would be the rest of my life annealing brass. Turnaround on processing brass is a consideration for me.
The Ugly is far from the best. It's also far from the worst. And it fit my needs for an acceptable price point.
Just my opinions based on my own experiences.
Mike
I don't have anything to compare it to aside from the drill/torch method.
Price was right. Setup is easy. Has a hopper that will hold 100 or more 300 Win Mag or several hundred Lake City 5.56 cases.
On the occasion that I go to the public range I usually bring home at least one plastic grocery bag half full of 5.56/.223 brass.
If all I loaded for was the Win Mag then I might look at an AMP. But with [several] gas guns to load for I would be the rest of my life annealing brass. Turnaround on processing brass is a consideration for me.
The Ugly is far from the best. It's also far from the worst. And it fit my needs for an acceptable price point.
Just my opinions based on my own experiences.
Mike
My intuition says this is true to a degree (LOL!). But for the devices that rotate the case neck, there is a minimal time for a full rotation. Plus I don't know how you make sure you have the "hottest flame possible" - just open the valve on the tank full blast? I suppose. I suspect that the torch orifice becomes a limiting factor at some PSI. At what PSI, I don't know.
The thing about these automated feeding machines, is the dwell time doesn't matter as much because you're doing other things. Doesnt matter if it takes 30 minutes or 60 to do several hundred cases.
The thing about these automated feeding machines, is the dwell time doesn't matter as much because you're doing other things. Doesnt matter if it takes 30 minutes or 60 to do several hundred cases.
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Perhaps with these tips they choose the orifice based on tank pressure. Maybe that's why they dont put regulators between the torch and propane tank on these hand held torches.
I seriously doubt the flame in your picture is doing much of anything to your brass in 8.5 seconds. A Bic has a bigger flame than that.
I seriously doubt the flame in your picture is doing much of anything to your brass in 8.5 seconds. A Bic has a bigger flame than that.
The only point she conveys in that video worth sharing, is the concept that heat travels back along the torch tube towards the valve and tank. When you use one of these to anneal cases, that is different than soldering for plumbing because the torch will be on long enough to make it an issue.
Using a larger tank and distant regulator does two things, it keeps the gas in the tank from warming up and changing during your session, and it also keeps the regulator out of that heat.
You will want to keep an eye on flame operations since the heat traveling back down the tube will eventually change the flame as it affects the valve and fuel.
The video is otherwise just cute and doesn't convey any of the flame front or valve setting concepts at all.
If you flame anneal, it is best to be taught by an expert. You can do this on your own but it requires feedback. You are either going to want to watch your seating force, or submit samples for hardness survey.
If you do this blind and get it right, that is great and carry on. I know folks who got it right by luck without feedback, so it can be done.
If your results are making things worse, try watching the seating force or try to find a lab to submit samples. YMMV
Using a larger tank and distant regulator does two things, it keeps the gas in the tank from warming up and changing during your session, and it also keeps the regulator out of that heat.
You will want to keep an eye on flame operations since the heat traveling back down the tube will eventually change the flame as it affects the valve and fuel.
The video is otherwise just cute and doesn't convey any of the flame front or valve setting concepts at all.
If you flame anneal, it is best to be taught by an expert. You can do this on your own but it requires feedback. You are either going to want to watch your seating force, or submit samples for hardness survey.
If you do this blind and get it right, that is great and carry on. I know folks who got it right by luck without feedback, so it can be done.
If your results are making things worse, try watching the seating force or try to find a lab to submit samples. YMMV
Hot dog
You have to allow the torch to get to an equilibrium temperature as I have said multiple times.
My zippo lighter flame heats the case to cherry hot, so I don't know what else you want. The setup also comports with the instructions Doug Giraud sends with the machine ("inner blue flame 3/4" long and 1/4" from case neck) more or less. Maybe Giraud and all the guys using his machine have gotten it wrong all these years, who knows? Despite tempilaq and all that.
And yet here we go again, back to the old fight about whether flame annealing does anything, or makes it worse or wastes time, and whether or not so and so is doing it right
And FFS this is getting old
You have to allow the torch to get to an equilibrium temperature as I have said multiple times.
My zippo lighter flame heats the case to cherry hot, so I don't know what else you want. The setup also comports with the instructions Doug Giraud sends with the machine ("inner blue flame 3/4" long and 1/4" from case neck) more or less. Maybe Giraud and all the guys using his machine have gotten it wrong all these years, who knows? Despite tempilaq and all that.
And yet here we go again, back to the old fight about whether flame annealing does anything, or makes it worse or wastes time, and whether or not so and so is doing it right
And FFS this is getting old
LOL
Try to be patient with the rookies, you will want to add them to your ranks, not turn them into enemies......
You never know which one of them will be pushing your wheelchair....
The important thing she said is if you're using the torch for a "lengthy job." Run the flame at max capacity.
As long as there is liquid in your tank the pressure in your line is not changing much unless the ambient temperature of your room changes dramatically. Then it's till going to take time for the liquid in the tank to absorb that heat.
An expert in bottle neck case annealing.
No such thing.....
Or maybe you have it wrong.
I did not say one word about flame annealing not working. I said it looks like you are not doing anything. Spefically you. Luckily annealing is about the least important thing you do in your reloading process. So you can't even tell the diffrence.
And no your zippos isn't getting a case cherry red in 8.5 seconds either. Might get it as hot firing the round made the peice brass....
You're set up almost exactly as the giruad instructions say. Maybe I am.doingnit wrong and can't tell. At any rate. Quite happy with my giruad been using it wrong since 2014 without any problems.
At any rate. Quite happy with my giruad been using it wrong since 2014 without any problems.
It looks like your flame is small and distant, maybe it’s just the pic, but the 8.5 second dwell time does seem to sort of bear that out
It is unkind to poke fun at the size of a man’s flame
Or his torch LOL
Or his torch LOL
FWIW : I had MY brass tested by the foremost expert in the metallurgic field , at Skunk-works ,AKA Lockheed Martin facility .
As I had sophisticated facilities and the ability to occasionally use them , as I wanted to Know definitively whether or not it was worth screwing with and does it actually work .
YES & YES provided the brass neck and shoulder get 1200-1300 Deg., F or as they turn orange to Red ,that's ALL that's required .
As I worked there back in those days . It's NOT rocket science it's simply restoring ductility to the neck and shoulder where the brass moves most ,as firing cartridges cold works brass . A simple eyeball for color change is all one needs and 200-300 degrees F this way or that way doesn't matter . 1100 Deg. F. - 1500 Deg. F. works and only requires seconds . 800 -900 Deg. F. ISN'T enough ,one would be required to leave the case at that temp for minutes . Doing so runs the risk of heat transfer down the body .
As true annealing requires TEMPERATURE AND TIME , Excessive time which NO one can do practically . This is why it's actually " Partial Annealing " or restoring ductility . Simply softening that portion of the brass case .
Cartridge Brass ,AKA High zinc melts at 1652 Deg. F. Low zinc brass around 1725 Deg. F. give or take a few degrees ,as alloys can alter melt points .
I recently got an ugly annealer and I like it. It seems really well built for the relatively small cost.
My only gripe is that it will occasionally stop spinning when I run it slow enough to get the right temp on certain brass.
It might have been due to the cold temperature in my shed or something. I am hoping to find a torch that puts out more flame to do it quicker.
My only gripe is that it will occasionally stop spinning when I run it slow enough to get the right temp on certain brass.
It might have been due to the cold temperature in my shed or something. I am hoping to find a torch that puts out more flame to do it quicker.
