Which of these two units will support higher magnification on a daytime optic?
What would be the max magnification either would support?
Thanks!
What would be the max magnification either would support?
Thanks!
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Night Vision BAE UTC-X vs EOTech Clip IR ELR
- Thread starter shark3-1
- Start date
There are other (often more important) things to consider when comparing those two, but I’ll assume you have considered them.
The EoTech will support slightly more day scope magnification. Nobody can meaningfully answer how much each can handle. It’s VERY subjective. I’ve used a Voodoo-S comfortably at 20X, but nobody would advertise it as appropriate for that, and most would say it tops out at 10X or less… even though I have proven it works at 20X… see how broad the interpretation can be?
Depends on your target, conditions, experience, expectations, etc.
The EoTech will support slightly more day scope magnification. Nobody can meaningfully answer how much each can handle. It’s VERY subjective. I’ve used a Voodoo-S comfortably at 20X, but nobody would advertise it as appropriate for that, and most would say it tops out at 10X or less… even though I have proven it works at 20X… see how broad the interpretation can be?
Depends on your target, conditions, experience, expectations, etc.
Thanks you for the feedback! I’m taking my first leap into thermal clip on world and I’m trying to make the right call and buy once cry once. I have a Raptar without tracIR, so that feature in a clip on is not important to me.
I recently sold my primary day optic, so I’m trying to make sure that I’m pairing up the right day optic with the right clip on.
For use cases, I’m looking for a clip on that can be used from static positions on hogs and coyotes out to 8-900 yd. Ideally I’d like to use it with a Nightforce nx8 2.5-20 if either option supports that mag range, but also open to a ATACR 4-16 or Steiner H6xi 2-12 if they are better matches for the optical ranges of these two units. If neither unit would support over 16x, would one of the units have a more usable higher FOV in low power?
I recently sold my primary day optic, so I’m trying to make sure that I’m pairing up the right day optic with the right clip on.
For use cases, I’m looking for a clip on that can be used from static positions on hogs and coyotes out to 8-900 yd. Ideally I’d like to use it with a Nightforce nx8 2.5-20 if either option supports that mag range, but also open to a ATACR 4-16 or Steiner H6xi 2-12 if they are better matches for the optical ranges of these two units. If neither unit would support over 16x, would one of the units have a more usable higher FOV in low power?
Friday Night Lights: EOTech ClipIR ELR, Long Range Thermal Clip-On
This week we take a look at the EoTech ClipIR ELR. It is the flagship long range thermal clip-on. It has similar performance to devices twice as much.
www.thefirearmblog.com
Both units would do what you’re describing, and all 3 scopes would be appropriate.
There’s a lot of personal preference issues between those. For me, the UTC-X wins (dramatically) for its size/weight, and much superior core (how the thermal image is interpreted for your eyes/ brain to perceive it best), but you’re probably limited to the used market.
For more $$, I’m a big fan of the Voodoo-M.
You might also hold off for Shot Show, as new stuff is supposed to be released.
There’s a lot of personal preference issues between those. For me, the UTC-X wins (dramatically) for its size/weight, and much superior core (how the thermal image is interpreted for your eyes/ brain to perceive it best), but you’re probably limited to the used market.
For more $$, I’m a big fan of the Voodoo-M.
You might also hold off for Shot Show, as new stuff is supposed to be released.
Yeah, looking in the used market. Say my budget tops out at $12k. I’m looking right now at a couple used versions of these two units in the $10k range.
I really like the size and weight on the UTC-X, but I also would really like to have a usable image up to 16x.
The lack of warranty on the BAE does concern me a little, but the added weight and size of the eotech kinda even out those pros and cons into a wash for me.
To give the clearest follow up question:
If I were running the ATACR 4-16, would I run out of usable thermal image before reaching 16x with a UTC X whereas I could still have a usable image with the ClipIR ELR?
Thanks a ton for answering some of these questions, I just want to make sure I make the right purchase and I’ll never be able to see them side by side.
I really like the size and weight on the UTC-X, but I also would really like to have a usable image up to 16x.
The lack of warranty on the BAE does concern me a little, but the added weight and size of the eotech kinda even out those pros and cons into a wash for me.
To give the clearest follow up question:
If I were running the ATACR 4-16, would I run out of usable thermal image before reaching 16x with a UTC X whereas I could still have a usable image with the ClipIR ELR?
Thanks a ton for answering some of these questions, I just want to make sure I make the right purchase and I’ll never be able to see them side by side.
2.5-20 is a great unit. If mostly farther away shots , I’d try a 4-32
2.5-20x is perfect scope for these long distance thermal clipons.
In my experience the Theon ELR beats the utc/M in open country beyond 600yds, but the utc/M wins under 300yds.
Be wary in the used market. For both gen1 theons and utc/x. There are a few bad theon mk1s out there and a few bad utcX out there. I would not buy either from someone I did not know and trust unless I was ok with buying a lemon.
I am not ok with buying a lemon, so I could not buy either on the used market from someone I did not know and trust.
Some utcx have rear end focus issues. This makes them unuseable. But in experienced people might buy them and not realize how phuqued they are. But do figure out they arent what was expected so sell. The utcx was de supported by BAE in Aug 2017, so its ancient history in terms of getting any official support.
Some theon mk1s have collimation issues. You have a prayer of getting theon to fix it, but be prepared for a battle royal that will last for at least months.
Evo9 has direct experience with the eotech/theon customer support process. Ask him if you want the full story.
So $12k on a die roll where I might get one that works and I might not ?
With the utcx I know It I could never get it fixed (unless Robert the Magician will fix it). And I know I cant sell it (against my moral code to sell junk and say its good). So if I get a bad utcx I am just out $12k. I cant afford that risk.
With theon at least I have a prayer.
Me ? I currently have an M and thats what I recommend ( I had a utcx and a theon mk1 and both were great). I like the M best. And am happy to have it. As bad as PoT CS is, its better than eotech/theon. And way better than the nothing for the utcx.
It is true that the mk2 theon doesnt have the rotating offset issue of the mk1 - if you got a badly collimated mk1. But with the mk2 you still cant fix it - you have to send it to Theon.
With the M you can fix it yourself.
Good hunting !!
EDIT
The reason i like the 2.5-20x is the 2.5 on the bottom allows max FOV on the utc(s) and theon elr(s) both of which max out fov between 2.7 and 3.0
I define max fov to be where I have dialed day scope magnification to the point where I can see the corners then back off (go a little higher) on the magnification until the corners are barely clipped. That happens at 2.7x on utc and M and 3.0 on theon elrs.
Using 4x low end scopes you will loose some fov. I shot with 4-16x for years loosing fov. Then i choose not to. I sold all scopes with bottom > 3x.
I like 20x on top as it allows me to see mirage which is useful for wind calls. Thats mostly a day thing. But I am using clipons so I can shoot the same rifle in the day.
Also i have seen mirage at night > zero times. VERY rare but greater than zero.
In my experience the Theon ELR beats the utc/M in open country beyond 600yds, but the utc/M wins under 300yds.
Be wary in the used market. For both gen1 theons and utc/x. There are a few bad theon mk1s out there and a few bad utcX out there. I would not buy either from someone I did not know and trust unless I was ok with buying a lemon.
I am not ok with buying a lemon, so I could not buy either on the used market from someone I did not know and trust.
Some utcx have rear end focus issues. This makes them unuseable. But in experienced people might buy them and not realize how phuqued they are. But do figure out they arent what was expected so sell. The utcx was de supported by BAE in Aug 2017, so its ancient history in terms of getting any official support.
Some theon mk1s have collimation issues. You have a prayer of getting theon to fix it, but be prepared for a battle royal that will last for at least months.
Evo9 has direct experience with the eotech/theon customer support process. Ask him if you want the full story.
So $12k on a die roll where I might get one that works and I might not ?
With the utcx I know It I could never get it fixed (unless Robert the Magician will fix it). And I know I cant sell it (against my moral code to sell junk and say its good). So if I get a bad utcx I am just out $12k. I cant afford that risk.
With theon at least I have a prayer.
Me ? I currently have an M and thats what I recommend ( I had a utcx and a theon mk1 and both were great). I like the M best. And am happy to have it. As bad as PoT CS is, its better than eotech/theon. And way better than the nothing for the utcx.
It is true that the mk2 theon doesnt have the rotating offset issue of the mk1 - if you got a badly collimated mk1. But with the mk2 you still cant fix it - you have to send it to Theon.
With the M you can fix it yourself.
Good hunting !!
EDIT
The reason i like the 2.5-20x is the 2.5 on the bottom allows max FOV on the utc(s) and theon elr(s) both of which max out fov between 2.7 and 3.0
I define max fov to be where I have dialed day scope magnification to the point where I can see the corners then back off (go a little higher) on the magnification until the corners are barely clipped. That happens at 2.7x on utc and M and 3.0 on theon elrs.
Using 4x low end scopes you will loose some fov. I shot with 4-16x for years loosing fov. Then i choose not to. I sold all scopes with bottom > 3x.
I like 20x on top as it allows me to see mirage which is useful for wind calls. Thats mostly a day thing. But I am using clipons so I can shoot the same rifle in the day.
Also i have seen mirage at night > zero times. VERY rare but greater than zero.
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No, absolutely not. Both will comfortably handle 16 or even 20X (depending on several factors I mentioned previously).
You’re imagining far more difference than there is. In direct, side by side, head to head comparisons, it’s hard to tell which one supports more magnification, and not everyone present agrees on the winner. They are that close. EoTech theoretically wins based on “pixel density” which simply means they chose to give you a narrower straw to look through. Thats literally it.
Rant incoming
Almost everyone compares thermal clip ons with the notion that more day scope magnification means it’s a better or more capable clip on. This is goofy when you think about it. I could take the crappiest core and lense out there and SMOKE each of the devices discussed here in day scope magnification support, simply by designing it with a super narrow field of view. That’s all it takes, and when some new clip on comes out with a tiny field of view, countless people will claim it “beats the EoTech”. Realistically, it will suck at close and medium range critters or combatants (which is where almost all critters and combatants are seen and engaged in real life), but will be praised for its position at the top of a spreadsheet for the narrowest field of view (which will sound impressive because they will call it “highest pixel density”). Super narrow field of view doesn’t sell well, but if we call that same thing “high pixel density” we’re suddenly willing to pay more for it
It’s a race to the bottom. We all know how important FOV is for day scopes but for some reason don’t care when shopping for a thermal.
To clarify, there ARE a few circumstances where maximum range is king and FOV be dammed. In those rare cases, one should probably pursue the maximum pixel density. But in 7 years of open terrain coyote hunting in The West, with thousands of yards of open fields in every direction, I never encountered a single situation where any of the thermals discussed here would even get close to being a limiting factor in making the shot.
Not my spreadsheet(and "Cost" is MSRP). I've saved this for myself, but wish I could credit the member that originally made it.
That’s very helpful context. Thank you!No, absolutely not. Both will comfortably handle 16 or even 20X (depending on several factors I mentioned previously).
You’re imagining far more difference than there is. In direct, side by side, head to head comparisons, it’s hard to tell which one supports more magnification, and not everyone present agrees on the winner. They are that close. EoTech theoretically wins based on “pixel density” which simply means they chose to give you a narrower straw to look through. Thats literally it.
Rant incoming
Almost everyone compares thermal clip ons with the notion that more day scope magnification means it’s a better or more capable clip on. This is goofy when you think about it. I could take the crappiest core and lense out there and SMOKE each of the devices discussed here in day scope magnification support, simply by designing it with a super narrow field of view. That’s all it takes, and when some new clip on comes out with a tiny field of view, countless people will claim it “beats the EoTech”. Realistically, it will suck at close and medium range critters or combatants (which is where almost all critters and combatants are seen and engaged in real life), but will be praised for its position at the top of a spreadsheet for the narrowest field of view (which will sound impressive because they will call it “highest pixel density”). Super narrow field of view doesn’t sell well, but if we call that same thing “high pixel density” we’re suddenly willing to pay more for it
It’s a race to the bottom. We all know how important FOV is for day scopes but for some reason don’t care when shopping for a thermal.
To clarify, there ARE a few circumstances where maximum range is king and FOV be dammed. In those rare cases, one should probably pursue the maximum pixel density. But in 7 years of open terrain coyote hunting in The West, with thousands of yards of open fields in every direction, I never encountered a single situation where any of the thermals discussed here would even get close to being a limiting factor in making the shot.
Yep, the HISS-XLR is the craziest tight FOV I've seen on a thermal so far. Scanning for targets inside of 200m is a real challenge, but engaging beyond 800m is more than doable. The vertical alignment of the sensor/display makes lateral scanning a little tricky, but following bullet trajectories a piece of cake. But with that 240mm lens and crazy tight FOV you get a minimum mag of about ~15x to start with (if you want a full view of the display) and that can go up to about 36x optically (on top of the 1-4x digital zoom), which tracks with the spreadsheet.
Some examples:
This is raw from the sensor. If you view full screen you should see a 2/3 IPSC steel at ~920m and bullet flight from lower right. This was used as a spotter, so it's dialed optically to about 25x, but with the super tight FOV the sensor has no problem capturing the action almost a kilometer away.
Some examples:
- foreground birdwatchers ~250m
- background guys fishing ~700m
- vehicles driving by - ~4870m
This is raw from the sensor. If you view full screen you should see a 2/3 IPSC steel at ~920m and bullet flight from lower right. This was used as a spotter, so it's dialed optically to about 25x, but with the super tight FOV the sensor has no problem capturing the action almost a kilometer away.
So if I’m understanding this correctly, if the majority of my targets are 500yds and closer, I may be better suited to get the ClipIR LR to get more FOV and just suffer a little on targets past 500yds and over 12x on a day scope?
I’d lean xii / voodoo m
Works oerfect
Hiss XLR is super specialized.
Now the Hiss HD which is same thing but wife FOV. I’d like to get ahold of that
Hiss HD is available ? HD not xlrWe've gotten both so probably still can, but lead time on INODE's was 2 years last I recall - so don't forget to ping us in six years !!!
Honestly, my buddy and I have been using the HISS-XLR as a day/night spotter more than a clip-on. Even setup an external display so we can run it standalone on a tripod.
Interesting you mention using it more for spotting than a clip on. Exactly what I have been doing, albeit with a measly XELR instead of a HISS.
I would be realistic about your actual ranges. 500 yards at night with thermal is a LONG way. It would be best if you can actually look through some of this stuff before throwing down the big cheddar. Despite your desire to buy a big $$$ clip on many people are just as well served by something like a HALO XRF in terms of integrated package and imaging quality.
The reason I would say to look through them is that while the Eotech products are perfectly serviceable, the core does not have the same 3-D pop and detail detection that the BAE core products have. Hence the VDM recommendations. But those are nearly 2x the cost.
For shits n giggles....
standalone with field monitor (kind of a pain and no bueno for night)
behind CFS 6-36x is better night solution
standalone with field monitor (kind of a pain and no bueno for night)
behind CFS 6-36x is better night solution
, my autism is starting to tingle.
Don’t be! I’m really glad it got sidetracked because I think I finally understand that I don’t know what I don’t know, especially from the pixels per FOV degree.
From video comparisons (understood that it’s not what you actually see) I certainly understand the hype on the BAE core stuff.
On a somewhat related note, I just pulled the trigger on a super cheap 640 UTM to use mainly as a hand held, but I’m also gonna try to use it in front of an LPVO. Hopefully this will give me a better idea of what I’m looking for in a longer range clip on.
I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised how much capability you get out of that. The 50mm to 75mm optics seem to be a great blend of FOV and performance at distance (especially with how far digital magnification has come).
ETA: another tip that helps more with some thermals than other is that black hot can provide better details while white hot generally provides better detection. That has certainly been the case for the thermals I've used
Keep in mind there are 30hz & 60hz UTMs. Higher the hz, the less lag.
Ok, now to even further derail the thread:
I’m wanting to run either the NX8 1-8 or the ATACR 1-8 primarily (I’m fine with either in daylight) behind the UTM. If the NX8 has a slightly wider FOV, will that equate to having more pixels being visible at each power setting comparatively?
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That's a good question, but honestly I don't think you will notice much of a difference.
I assume you're talking about the 4-16 ATACR?
I could tell a difference between my MK5 3.6-18 and the NX8 2.5-20 when I had both and actually preferred the NX8 because of that. I don't think it's possible to have too much FOV at night and the lower base mag will give you a nicer picture as well and let you zoom in until you get where you need to be. The ATACR would not be an issue though by any means, unless minimum power doesn't let you see the menu items you need to use regularly
Also keep in mind some UTMs have the "good" rear lenses and some have the "bad" rear lenses. The good ones can be collimated to the day optic, the bad ones cannot. Good vs bad UTM is outside my wheel house, so you'll have to find some UTM experts to tell you exactly how to tell the good lenses from the bad lenses. They can tell by looking at pics showing a side view of the rear lens.
