Didn't stick the landing...
- Thread starter NoDopes
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He also mentioned APU in flight possibly supplying Hyd/Elec.
Did things change?
Most aircraft, APU shutdown occurs without WOW.
Also, he mentioned FDR shutting down with Firewall SOV handle pulled. Shouldn't the FWSOV only cut electrical supply to the assigned engine?
With the #2 engine off, hydraulics should still be available for flaps, slats, flight controls and brakes due to cross-system redundancies.
And, as pointed out above, the Hyd systems have accumulators that will provide very minimal use in an emergency.
Did things change?
Most aircraft, APU shutdown occurs without WOW.
Also, he mentioned FDR shutting down with Firewall SOV handle pulled. Shouldn't the FWSOV only cut electrical supply to the assigned engine?
With the #2 engine off, hydraulics should still be available for flaps, slats, flight controls and brakes due to cross-system redundancies.
And, as pointed out above, the Hyd systems have accumulators that will provide very minimal use in an emergency.
While I'm totally unfamiliar with Guppy systems, I'm pretty sure the 737NG like most Part 25 airliners today have a "flight" APU, so if it was running it absolutely could have powered all AC busses...but I'd guess most airlines don't start the APU prior to landing unless they're in CAT2/3 ops.
Watched him once. And then once more as a benefit of the doubt. That was enough. There are many others that are far more knowledgable.
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On the 737-800 the APU can be run in flight all the way to FL410 for electrical. It’s also required for ETOPS operations.
It’s also absolutely essential to get the APU fired up and on the AC transfer bus asap if you have a loss of both engines : without hydraulics and without main electric trim you’re in manual reversion with very little control.
There’s zero chance that a crew with tunnel vision who just shut down the wrong engine after a bird strike go around would start the APU … wait a min … then put it on the bus then fly the perfect glide profile with enough flaps to land at a speed that wouldn’t overrun the runway.
I’ve practiced dual bird strikes turn back after takeoff in the sim and your stall margin is very small on that turn then until you can get the APU up and get at least some leading edge devices youre coming in very fast and you want to hold on the gear till the last moment otherwise you won’t make the glide to the runway. It’s hard enough to do at altitudes above 5000 it’s mostly impossible below 3000’ and it’s absolutely impossible without the APU running and on bus.
The crew fucked up and shut down the wrong engine. It’s not the first time. And unlike the Airbus or any widebody Boeing, there’s no Ram Air Turbine as a backup source. The 737NG and Max and fundamentally a very old design that lacks many of the modern safety features but then again, any moronic crew can find a way to crash a Dreamliner regardless of how dummy proof your design is.
It’s also absolutely essential to get the APU fired up and on the AC transfer bus asap if you have a loss of both engines : without hydraulics and without main electric trim you’re in manual reversion with very little control.
There’s zero chance that a crew with tunnel vision who just shut down the wrong engine after a bird strike go around would start the APU … wait a min … then put it on the bus then fly the perfect glide profile with enough flaps to land at a speed that wouldn’t overrun the runway.
I’ve practiced dual bird strikes turn back after takeoff in the sim and your stall margin is very small on that turn then until you can get the APU up and get at least some leading edge devices youre coming in very fast and you want to hold on the gear till the last moment otherwise you won’t make the glide to the runway. It’s hard enough to do at altitudes above 5000 it’s mostly impossible below 3000’ and it’s absolutely impossible without the APU running and on bus.
The crew fucked up and shut down the wrong engine. It’s not the first time. And unlike the Airbus or any widebody Boeing, there’s no Ram Air Turbine as a backup source. The 737NG and Max and fundamentally a very old design that lacks many of the modern safety features but then again, any moronic crew can find a way to crash a Dreamliner regardless of how dummy proof your design is.
It nots even required to have the APU available for CAT2 ops. You can even dispatch to a destination that has forecast cat2 weather with the APU non available/MELed.
APU is usually started after landing and cleared off the active runway, or if its a long taxi then its started entering the main apron. Going to a small southern airport with a short taxi somewhere very very hot like Mazatlan, you might see some crews start the APU on final. It’s a good idea because the APU can take up to 90 sec to start and then once it’s started it still takes another 2 min before you can throw the APU air conditioning for the pax so it’s a way to increase passenger comfort so they don’t get too hot when the engines are shut down at the parking stand. That’s a very very rare scenario that frowned upon because most bean counters would rather have 189 people sweat than burn an extra 50$ of fuel. Comfort is mostly a North American thing. I’ve flow in Amsterdam where you can’t use the APU for air conditioning on the ground because muh noise and muh climate change and you have a plane full of people on the verge of a heat stroke and it’s accepted as normal whereby in North America it would made the news.
The APU is very efficient. Fuel flow is about 100-150kg per hour that’s on the ground powering both AC buses and air conditioning to the pax.
I do.
Our manuals don’t, so 95%+ don’t. It’s really just the tragic picture of today’s aviation. There’s no thinking anymore and a lot of pilots who use their brains are afraid to deviate from what the books says in order to “not get in trouble”.
The books of course is written by a bunch of desk guys and lesbians who can’t fly the line worth a shit. They usually don’t fly much or at all for fear of exposing their incompetence to the line guys. The solution to every safety issue of course is always to try to add more “procedures” to memorize for low iq people and never to use your judgement or your experience because that would require you to hire competent people and not DEI mystery meat invaders.
How bad it is ? We had a capt get suspended for ordering fried chicken and watermelon because that was a “racial dog whistle”.
. What?!?! So at you’re woke airline, a white person can’t eat fried chicken and watermelon?? I’m guessing despite all their virtue signaling wokeness, your grooming guidelines in your FOM read like a 1950 Air Force manual and you can’t have a beard. So you can as a biological male, wear the female uniform, but you can’t have a beard. Just a wild guess. And I agree, none of this woke crap equates to anything good in a cockpit.
No BULLSHIT! I saw this at NBAA years ago in Vegas!
www.ngpa.org
You can't imagine the fucking jokes we made up!
NGPA - The Worldwide LGBTQ+ Aviation Community
Serving LGBT Aviators and Friends of Aviation Worldwide.
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You can't imagine the fucking jokes we made up!
we dont.
Only time we start APU during flight is QRH driven or a bleeds off approach/landing due to approach climb limit weight on a go-around.
Hell we get bitch letters at least once a year to "not call for/do the after landing until the A/C clears the runway"... part of that is to start the APU, and the bitch letter generally calls that out LOL. Most people will crank the APU on the runway in places like BUR or others where we know the taxi in to the gate is barely going to clear the 1 minute engine cool down limitation.
They track it all...
Depends on the operator. Previous operator of mine had us crank it and on the bus prior to the FAF, current operator doesn’t require it unless qrh driven. Etops is either on demand or continuous ops, as specified in the paperwork. As far as everyday ops, my operator is very cost driven (like every airline out there), we constantly get preached at about cost savings. In our case they would rather shut down #2 and burn the apu on the way in, taxiing out, crank 1, burn apu for single engine taxi, then crank 2 when appropriate. Some people can handle the big picture with that, others take it to extreme. We do a lot of bleeds off takeoffs/landings, deicing, etc.. so apu is pretty high up in our thought process across the operation as far as use is concerned.
We dont work for the same airline LOL.
We have em both spinning before the tug is unhooked...except in a Max. "start both this whole trip unless we discuss otherwise" is pretty standard in the initial briefing. We will bring the apu back up and shut one down on the taxi out if needed.
Bleeds off takeoff/landings here are like a QRH driven procedure... Need to look it up in section 16. Its pretty rare honestly. I did a bleeds off landing in HDN 2 weeks ago due to icing...which isnt exactly an inspiring way to fly an approach with no engine bleed air for wing anti-ice. Luckily ceilings were like 4k so we waited to shut off the bleeds until then.
BUT we dont fly the 9 or 9ER which I understand is a whole nother pig to wrastle and runs into performance issues far more often than the 7 or 8.
Yeah, these guys do some things different.
We’ve got reference cards and a bunch of supplemental stuff in the FH/FOM for things like this. Tons of guidance. The 9’s are a pain, fly great but shit performance, thankfully we only have 5 left and they’re going away slowly. 900er’s are fine, I’d rather fly that bird than a max.
Part of the performance issue is they rolled out a new optimizer program last year, bean counters at it again. I’ve never done so many flaps 15 and 25 t/o’s in my career, bleeds off for that matter too. For the most part it made sense, short runways, heavy, warm, etc… Most of the Hawaiian runways are generally bleeds off in the summer. But sometimes we would get the random Flaps 15 off a 12k runway with t/o n1 at like 80.4%. The big picture, more senior CA’s would have me get new massaged numbers to get something more realistic, others just want to follow the data.
We’ve got reference cards and a bunch of supplemental stuff in the FH/FOM for things like this. Tons of guidance. The 9’s are a pain, fly great but shit performance, thankfully we only have 5 left and they’re going away slowly. 900er’s are fine, I’d rather fly that bird than a max.
Part of the performance issue is they rolled out a new optimizer program last year, bean counters at it again. I’ve never done so many flaps 15 and 25 t/o’s in my career, bleeds off for that matter too. For the most part it made sense, short runways, heavy, warm, etc… Most of the Hawaiian runways are generally bleeds off in the summer. But sometimes we would get the random Flaps 15 off a 12k runway with t/o n1 at like 80.4%. The big picture, more senior CA’s would have me get new massaged numbers to get something more realistic, others just want to follow the data.
If we can't do a 1(700) or a 5(800) takeoff, I think the shit goes straight to 25.... ive done a few 15's, but generally its 1, 5 or 25... fuck it whatever the system wants. Were so conditioned to go "fuck, it sent numbers and we have a positive stop margin in the even to of a reject, so roll with it"... because beyond what the computer sends, honestly we have no fucking clue and I am sure thats what the company wants... If anything goes wrong they can blame us for "relying on the computer generated information"... which of course at the end of the day comes from Boeing which the company can pass blame on to also...
So basically at no time is the company to blame.
"Those fucking pilots requested data that Boeing generated"...
So basically at no time is the company to blame.
"Those fucking pilots requested data that Boeing generated"...
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