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Shorty 223AI Issues - Help

NHPiper

NHPiper

Tactical Bagpiper
Full Member
Minuteman
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    • Feb 17, 2017
    3,060
    1,390
    Concord, NH
    #1
    My buddy @WillHugh and I have similar 18" 223AI rifles and both are not shooting. Details below, but we have tried different suppressors and different loads, best we can get is 1MOA and worst is 2MOA. All shot suppressed, prone, bipod and with a bag.

    We wanted 18" barrels to run with OCM5 cans for compact rifles that can shoot a ballistically superior 22 cal bullet compared to an 18" Mk12 gas gun. We are 200+ rounds into load development and have a lot of experience loading. I developed my 6.5CM, 6CM, and 300PRC loads in less than 50 rounds each, all shoot 1/3-1/2 MOA and have single digit SD.

    Rifles are:
    Stiller Tac30 with an 18" Osprey (new) 1-7T Barrel, ATX chassis, S&B PMII

    Origin with an 18" Bartlein (several thousand rounds, bought used and cut down) 1-7T Barrel, Manners T5

    Everything has been torqued, double checked, and triple checked (witnessed marked as well). Suppressor alignment and muzzle brake alignment has been checked multiple times.

    We have tried 3 different powders (Varget, 8208 XBR, StaBall Match) and 3 different bullets: 75ELDM, 80ELDM, 88ELDM. He is running LC brass and I am running Winchester, both with CCI400s.

    Varget has been the primary powder that we have focused on. I used to run 26.2gr with an 80Amax out of the Stiller with a 24" barrel.

    Varget loads with each bullet have run from 25-26gr in .2gr increments. 8208 loads ran from 24.5-25.5 and StaBall Match ran from 25.8-27gr in the same way. All bullets in both rifles, with the different powders and cans basically shoot this same way.

    The OAL of all the loads is around 2.400-2.420" depending on the bullet.

    Does 223AI just not like short barrels?? Are we doing something wrong with our loads?
     

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    #4
    I would still think they at least shoot a little tighter as well but who knows. 80 eldm were OK in my 223 but the 77 and 80 smk have been consistently better. 80 has a much better bc but the 77s flat out shoot. If it doesn't shoot a 77 smk something else is wrong.
     
    #5
    I'd try shooting bare muzzle, no cans, no break just to remove one possible source of error.

    Then I'd try varget and berger 80.5. They're not seating depth sensitive.
    If that doesn't shoot 1/2 moa or better there's clearly something wrong. With the barrel or the chamber.
    I'd had some lots of 80 eld-m that were tricky to shoot but the 75 eldms were always shooters.

    Same with scenar 77 and smk 80, you can do 1/2 or better with zero load dev.
     
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    #7
    st1650 said:
    I'd try shooting bare muzzle, no cans, no break just to remove one possible source of error.

    Then I'd try varget and berger 80.5. They're not seating depth sensitive.
    If that doesn't shoot 1/2 moa or better there's clearly something wrong. With the barrel or the chamber.
    I'd had some lots of 80 eld-m that were tricky to shoot but the 75 eldms were always shooters.

    Same with scenar 77 and smk 80, you can do 1/2 or better with zero load dev.
    Click to expand...
    I have a bit of worry that we have shorter freebores than we need for the longer bullets. But I'm about 2.400" OAL and jumping 0.010-0.015" with the loads.

    What are you running for a Varget charge with those bullets? Are they in a 223AI?

    The 77s with 23.8gr of 8208 in unformed LC brass (my mk12 load) shout about 1 MOA. I should probably try a standard 24.5 or 25gr charge but I really don't want to shoot the 77s when there are much better ballistic bullets out there.

    Regarding bare muzzle, I thought that would be somewhat removed as a variable when I swapped cans and checked alignment with both. The RC2 shot slightly better with the same loads.
     
    #9
    NHPiper said:
    I have a bit of worry that we have shorter freebores than we need for the longer bullets. But I'm about 2.400" OAL and jumping 0.010-0.015" with the loads.

    What are you running for a Varget charge with those bullets? Are they in a 223AI?

    The 77s with 23.8gr of 8208 in unformed LC brass (my mk12 load) shout about 1 MOA. I should probably try a standard 24.5 or 25gr charge but I really don't want to shoot the 77s when there are much better ballistic bullets out there.

    Regarding bare muzzle, I thought that would be somewhat removed as a variable when I swapped cans and checked alignment with both. The RC2 shot slightly better with the same loads.
    Click to expand...
    I run my 223rem match (non ai) at 24.5gr varget 2.495in oal with the Berger 80.5
    My 75 eldm run at 2.515in

    I’d try 25-25.5gr with the AI… 26 is a tad hot especially if you have a short chamber.

    As for running bare muzzle, for me it’s an easy sanity check. The muzzle threads could be slightly off and you might not be able to see it with an alignment rod nor get a baffle strike but the accuracy is off. I’ve seen it before.
     
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    #10
    st1650 said:
    I run my 223rem match (non ai) at 24.5gr varget 2.495in oal with the Berger 80.5
    My 75 eldm run at 2.515in

    I’d try 25-25.5gr with the AI… 26 is a tad hot especially if you have a short chamber.

    As for running bare muzzle, for me it’s an easy sanity check. The muzzle threads could be slightly off and you might not be able to see it with an alignment rod nor get a baffle strike but the accuracy is off. I’ve seen it before.
    Click to expand...
    Those are pretty long loads. Wondering if I need to open up the freeboard? I feel like I'm getting a lot of random pressure, I'll be shooting with the Varget and I'll get around that. Just feels hotter than the rest.
     
    #12
    st1650 said:
    I run my 223rem match (non ai) at 24.5gr varget 2.495in oal with the Berger 80.5
    My 75 eldm run at 2.515in

    I’d try 25-25.5gr with the AI… 26 is a tad hot especially if you have a short chamber.

    As for running bare muzzle, for me it’s an easy sanity check. The muzzle threads could be slightly off and you might not be able to see it with an alignment rod nor get a baffle strike but the accuracy is off. I’ve seen it before.
    Click to expand...
    Just a quick follow-up, I would be amazed if the threads were off given that we're looking at two different barrels, two different manufacturers, and two different gunsmiths. Worth trying I suppose though
     
    #19
    Varget doesn't always get more accurate as you push it faster.

    eg, asterisk * = accuracy node
    1738220890252.png

    1738221106236.png

    source: nosler volume 9, projectile is 77gr class bullets

    22 Nosler Load Data

    Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
    www.nosler.com www.nosler.com

    223 Remington Load Data

    Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
    www.nosler.com www.nosler.com

    Not sure if this is your issue, but something to consider.
     
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    #21
    Here's a few of the most accurate loads from my notebook(half MOA):

    *OAL measured with a Hornady comparator. My barrel is a 25" Proof stainless. I reamed the chamber with a 4D AI reamer, so not positive on my freebore.

    75gr ELDM 25gr CFE223 OAL 1.775

    80gr SMK 23gr H4895 OAL 1.94

    88gr ELDM 21gr TAC OAL 1.93

    For some odd reason, I never recorded group size with 80gr VLD's.
     
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    #23
    NHPiper said:
    Yes, Redding with a bushing. I had to sand down the shell holder to get an actual shoulder bump.
    Click to expand...
    With multiple guns and multiole loads, that appears to be the only common denominator. I'd clean the barrels well and just shoot some known good factory 223 rem ammo in them to set some kind of baseline.
     
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    #24
    NHPiper said:
    I have a bit of worry that we have shorter freebores than we need for the longer bullets. But I'm about 2.400" OAL and jumping 0.010-0.015" with the loads.

    What are you running for a Varget charge with those bullets? Are they in a 223AI?

    The 77s with 23.8gr of 8208 in unformed LC brass (my mk12 load) shout about 1 MOA. I should probably try a standard 24.5 or 25gr charge but I really don't want to shoot the 77s when there are much better ballistic bullets out there.

    Regarding bare muzzle, I thought that would be somewhat removed as a variable when I swapped cans and checked alignment with both. The RC2 shot slightly better with the same loads.
    Click to expand...

    To be honest, if your mk12 load only shoots 1 moa, I'd think something was wrong with the barrel/chamber. Every good load I have for gas guns I can drop in my .223 and it'll shoot 1/2moa or better. I'd try bare muzzle, just to eliminate another variable and then maybe just get a box of FGMM as a sanity check but if none of that tightens things up (and I doubt it will) I'd be talking to the smith(s).
     
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    #25
    Wade said:
    With multiple guns and multiole loads, that appears to be the only common denominator. I'd clean the barrels well and just shoot some known good factory 223 rem ammo in them to set some kind of baseline.
    Click to expand...
    I used the bushing in the past with the same dies. With the prior 24" barrel I could stack rounds into 1" at 300yds with the 80Amax and same brass using Varget.

    I have cleaned the barrels a few times but will do a copper cleaner if I switch bullets. Good idea to try some factory ammo.
     
    #26
    Did I read the original post wrong, or did the OP say it was a “used Bartlein” with “thousands” of rounds down the tube?

    Did you bore scope it?

    What kind of shape is the barrel/throat in? Even Bartleins wear out eventually.
     
    #27
    Potsy said:
    Did I read the original post wrong, or did the OP say it was a “used Bartlein” with “thousands” of rounds down the tube?

    Did you bore scope it?

    What kind of shape is the barrel/throat in? Even Bartleins wear out eventually.
    Click to expand...
    Decent shape on the barrel. Some fire cracking but will double check it.
     
    #29
    Potsy said:
    Did I read the original post wrong, or did the OP say it was a “used Bartlein” with “thousands” of rounds down the tube?

    Did you bore scope it?

    What kind of shape is the barrel/throat in? Even Bartleins wear out eventually.
    Click to expand...
    That's my rifile. Has a couple thousand rounds through it (from a prior owner), but shoots half inch groups with 77 grain fireforming loads. As noted, can't get it under an inch with the 223ai rounds. The other rifle is brand new. Both have shot pretty much identical groups across all of the bullets and powders.

    At this point I'm assuming both just don't like the Hornadys for some reason.
     
    #30
    WillHugh said:
    At this point I'm assuming both just don't like the Hornadys for some reason.
    Click to expand...
    Maybe worth it to test the 77gr SMK again in the fireformed 223-AI brass, and explore its potential. If you are getting the extra velocity ∆ you expect with the bullets still grouping sub .5 MOA ...that would seem to rule out alot of baseless speculation...granted its not a final destination if your performance expectations are 80gr class (etc)...but it possibly good idea a next step in terms of trouble-shooting.
     
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    #31
    Dogsniper said:
    My 16” 223 ai eats everything from cheap 55 gr ultra max ammo to my 75 gr eld loads. Bartlien barrel. I would say it’s the barrels.
    Click to expand...
    Just seems odd to me that we have two very high quality barrels with the issue.

    Gonna try loading some 77SMKs and 80 Noslers around 25.5gr of Varget and see if things change.
     
    #33
    I had exact same issue. Varget and 75 eldm's in a 16" barrel suppressed. Didn't matter what I tried. Even with different bullets. Could never get it to shoot. Seems like varget does better with longer barrels. Switched to N140 (25gn), berger 80.5, 15 thousand jump. Shoots so awesome now. Only thing is it seems n140 is pretty temp sensitive. But it is night and day difference with accuracy.
     
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    #34
    My experience with Hornady's bullets left me with a very low opinion of their QC and products in general.

    I tested the BTO lengths and weights on a sample size of all of my Hornady bullets. Let's say I sold them shortly afterward. I was not impressed.

    Five shot groups out of my .223 and 6.5 looked like buckshot.

    People will certainly disagree with me, but I think Hornady is the Harbor Freight of the shooting world.

    When talking to folks that have issues like this I always suggest that they try a Sierra or Berger product.
     
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    #36
    I have shot 75/80 grain Amaxes/ELDM's in 3 different 223 AI rifles. Both 7 and 8 twists. Barrels from 26 to 22", two Bartleins and a benchmark.

    They all shot well with 25.x (slight variation between rifles) of H4895. Have also shot one rifle with 8208XBR and similar accuracy. COL 2.42-2.5x depending on rifle. They shoot well for me, and I don't worry about slight BTO variations. My steel targets, paper, and a rare coyote have no complaints. 205, 205 AR , and even some RP 7.5 primers mixed in.

    I haven't tried the Berger 80.5's in my shorty, but I may do so as calving has started on a couple ranches I hunt on. Let us know if you are able to resolve the issue.
     
    #37
    Going to try some Tac and 2520 powders.

    I just dropped in 25.8gr of Varget with a 77SMK and 80 Nosler Custom Comp. Shot a few groups and got 1.25-1.5MOA.

    I also shot a group at 24.5gr with the 77s and Varget. ES dropped to 30fps (velocity of 2730fps) but I stacked 3 together, 1 went 1" high and another went 1" low.

    The Garmin gave me a 100+ fps velocity spread.
     

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    #38
    Quick follow up, 24.8gr of Varget gave me a velocity ave of 2740fps with an ES of 40 with the 80 ELD.

    But shot a 2" group at 100yds.

    Gonna back it down and switch to Tac.

    Thinking around 25gr or Tac with the 75-80 ELD?
     
    #41
    I run 26.3 grains of varget with an 80 grain a-max out of my 16.5" 223ai and it shoots great. I'd definitely try without the suppressor and brake.
     
    #42
    Bradu said:
    I run 26.3 grains of varget with an 80 grain a-max out of my 16.5" 223ai and it shoots great. I'd definitely try without the suppressor and brake.
    Click to expand...
    What's your overall length or base to ogive using the Hornady comparator?

    I am at 1.865" with an 80 ELD for a 0.015" jump which is about 2.410" for an OAL. Worried here that my freebore is way too short.
     
    #44
    Another vote for trying something other than ELD's just for more data.

    If you have some of the good old Sierra 77 HPBT MKs those typically group well in almost anything, are very jump tolerant, and typically shoot great regardless of seating depth/jump. They would be a good easy sanity check as they seem to group well in everything I've ever tried regardless of powder, charge, seating depth, etc.

    I still have a ton of 75 Amax that I'm using up, and while the 75 ELDm is better than the Amax when it comes to BC according to the spec sheets, when I tested the ELDm's in my 2x 223AIs and a 22BR the good old 75 Amax grouped much better than the 75 ELDm in all 3 rifles. I'll take much tighter groups and a slightly lower BC over much larger groups with a little better BC every day.

    When my 75 Amax stash finally dries up I'm not sure what I'm going to switch to, but it won't be the 75 ELDm.

    I'm not totally against the red box stuff, as my 22GT prints tiny groups with the 88 ELDm and my 6.5CM really likes the 140 ELDm.
     
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    #45
    PROBLEM SOLVED

    First, I dropped the Varget charge to 24.5gr. Then I shot bare muzzle. Groups tightened right up.

    Put on the Surefire Closed Tine and the RC2 and shot a 10rnd group that measured .667" with a velocity of 2820fps and an SD of 9. Shot a few more 5 round groups to confirm zero that we're all 1/2 MOA.

    So it was primarily a muzzle brake issue combined with a really tight chamber.

    2820fps out of an 18" barrel with 80ELDM will work for me.

    See attached for the nice groups and some more of the horrid ones.
     

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