What am I doing wrong?

S

Scarface26

knuckle dragger
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 14, 2017
433
207
Southeast OK
#1
Gathering data on my 18" AR. 223 wylde, Leupold 3.5-10, Frontier 75gr. ammunition.

Everything's great at 100, 200, 300, and 400. Even turned in a 2.5 inch 3 shot group at 400.

However, at 500, the wheels fall off. The group opens up to 7 or 8 inches and is offset about 1.5moa to the right. i should ad that I'm not dialing, simply holding for elevation and windage using the reticle (dots or hashes every 2 moa - lepould ts 32 moa or something like that is the name of the reticle.)

While the ammunition is top tier, pretty sure that's not it.
Not dialing on the scope so tracking shouldn't be it.
Scope's mounted in a LaRue mount, properly torqued.
Adjusted parallax at each distance.
Didn't feel like fundamentals were off.

It has to be me, otherwise I feel like I'd see a decline in performance before "falling apart" between 400 and 500. Please give me a list of things to check tomorrow.

Thanks in Advance, and God bless America.
 
#2
Barrel twist, muzzle velocity? Much experience driving a gas gun at distance?

Ballistically challenged round would be my first guess, just because you do your part doesn’t mean the bullet is capable of doing anything extra. I can keep 77g razorcore on a 500 yard steel, but have never sat down and compared those groups to a 100 years group. I could be doing the same thing you are describing, just not digging into the weeds like you are stating.

I’m happy if the little light goes off when I aim at the target and squeeze the trigger though.
 
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#3
roostercogburn98 said:
Barrel twist, muzzle velocity? Much experience driving a gas gun at distance?

Ballistically challenged round would be my first guess, just because you do your part doesn’t mean the bullet is capable of doing anything extra. I can keep 77g razorcore on a 500 yard steel, but have never sat down and compared those groups to a 100 years group. I could be doing the same thing you are describing, just not digging into the weeds like you are stating.

I’m happy if the little light goes off when I aim at the target and squeeze the trigger though.
Click to expand...
It's an 8 twist and no clue on the velocity. Held 10 minutes up (good starting point for 500 yards and ended up needing another moa. I can do OK driving the rifle. I've got a LaRue 308 that holds half minute out to 850 with FGMM 168's (cheaper than the 175's). Stocks are similar. Same triggers on both.

Maybe it IS the ammo :D.

Thanks for the reply.
 
#4
223 isn’t really designed for long range.
Even the “heavy” loads, at some point loses its muster. And the slightest change in wind, temp or even humidity can make the “wheels fall off”at distance
 
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#5
8" at 500 / 1.6 MOA - with factory ammo is not the wheels falling off, that is good by many standards.

If you shoot 10 shots does it create a vertical string - ammo velocity inconsistently or horizontal - wind?

10x is not what I would call an ideal magnification for precision at that range, and if the reticle starts to cover up the bull it is harder to be consistent. How fine is it?

Might want to try a few different target styles to see if one is easier to align with.
 
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#7
I wouldn’t put too much weight in a single 3 shot group at 400 yards being your gold standard for that rifle.

You’re saying that you’re holding wind and you’re 1.5 moa right? That’s only the difference of about 2 - 3mph of wind at 500 yards. Could it be your wind call is off? Maybe off on the value?
 
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#8
Bottom line is, imo you've run into the practical limit of your platform and ammo - notably the optic, followed by the ammo - and that's assuming a high-quality AR platform tuned to the ammo.
  • Optic is max 10x? At 500 yards? Pfft. Be very happy with 7-8" groups, if you can do it consistently.
  • Methinks you're putting too much faith in the ammo. Hornady Frontier is not really match-grade; their 75gr BTHP bullet is good but it's not at the level of their ELDM match bullets... and in the precision rifle world, Hornady ELDM brass/bullets/factory loads are considered as rather entry level.
  • A single 3-shot group is utterly meaningless at any range, regardless of ammo quality. Ten shots can be enough to reject a lot of ammo, but 30-50 shots aggregated across multiple groups provide statistical high confidence of a rifle/load's dispersion capability. Example: A buddy of mine sent his Vudoo .22 to Lapua for lot testing; it set a single-10-shot-group record at 100 meters (109 yards) of .4 inches. He showed me the entire test report... yep, the other four 10-shot groups were the more typical one-ish inches.
  • I regularly shoot my .223 bolt gun to 1000 yards with 75-grain Hornady ELDM bullets. On calm days, hitting an 18" round plate at 1000, 8" plate at 600, etc. is routine. Wind picks up --> hitting full IPSC at 700-800 gets more "fun." But I'm running 18ish power magnification at those distances for positional practice and 27-36x for bench work.
I started this precision rifle silliness with a good 18" heavy-barrel, match-trigger AR and essentially the same ammo as you have. With a 15x scope, it was a roughly MOA combination at 100 and did pretty well out to 400. At 500, yeah, the "system" was running out of steam. I can't imagine how much worse it would have done with only 10x.
 
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#9
Gents,

Appreciate all the replies. Few points

Concur that a single 3-round group is luck. Majority of three round groups being that small does indicate (not prove) that perhaps the set-up might be G2G and that I am the problem. That's the case. This combo is usually a sub moa performer.

I will chrono this load and get some numbers and report back.

The level thing -- makes sense. Bet I had the rifle slightly canted and failed to recognize it.

10 round groups -- why not? Get more data at a single sitting. When you do that long of a string, are you building a new position from scratch each shot?

Also, appreciate the kind words about a 2 ish moa group being OK, and I agree that if I could do that consistently I'd be happy. With other rifles, I can. The problem with this scenario is not only the drastic increase in size, but also the group shift. Makes me think I'm inducing a parallax error, grip, cheek pressure, something. Wind call - except it was as calm at 500 as it was at 400.

You ammo snobs have me ruffled. Might have to try something a little nicer.

Bottom line is that i need to shoot more. If it's me, and it probably is, appreciate you guys helping me figure it out.

FWIW, I've had a Bushnell 4.5-18 on this rifle before and shot about the same.

Thanks and have a great weekend.
 
#11
Scarface26 said:
Gents,

Appreciate all the replies. Few points

Concur that a single 3-round group is luck. Majority of three round groups being that small does indicate (not prove) that perhaps the set-up might be G2G and that I am the problem. That's the case. This combo is usually a sub moa performer.

I will chrono this load and get some numbers and report back.

The level thing -- makes sense. Bet I had the rifle slightly canted and failed to recognize it.

10 round groups -- why not? Get more data at a single sitting. When you do that long of a string, are you building a new position from scratch each shot?

Also, appreciate the kind words about a 2 ish moa group being OK, and I agree that if I could do that consistently I'd be happy. With other rifles, I can. The problem with this scenario is not only the drastic increase in size, but also the group shift. Makes me think I'm inducing a parallax error, grip, cheek pressure, something. Wind call - except it was as calm at 500 as it was at 400.

You ammo snobs have me ruffled. Might have to try something a little nicer.

Bottom line is that i need to shoot more. If it's me, and it probably is, appreciate you guys helping me figure it out.

FWIW, I've had a Bushnell 4.5-18 on this rifle before and shot about the same.

Thanks and have a great weekend.
Click to expand...
With all due respect a 2 mph wind can easily be mistaken for calm. Add that in with some spin drift, trigger pull, and not being level and you might have the source of your shift.
 
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#12
Scarface26 said:
You ammo snobs have me ruffled. Might have to try something a little nicer.
Click to expand...
Apologies if my tone came across as snobbish... While the 75gr Hornady Frontier is vastly better than ubiquitous 55/62gr ball, it's just not true match grade.

But, with your low-powered optic, your rifle is very likely unable to take advantage of top-tier ammo at distance even if the rifle is a top-shelf, well-tuned AR.

If 500-yard-plus precision is your goal, are you able to try a higher-powered optic - at least 18x, preferably more? If so, I'd do that before changing ammo.

I've been where you are. I enjoyed starting my long-range journey with an AR, but I quickly discovered I wanted top-shelf accuracy without the fuss and bother of trying to coax a battle-rifle platform into providing it. Conversely, my son enjoys his AR/M1A/Tavor/etc rifles within the parameters one expects a battle rifle to meet. That may be you as well!

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.
 
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#13
DownhillFromHere said:
Apologies if my tone came across as snobbish... While the 75gr Hornady Frontier is vastly better than ubiquitous 55/62gr ball, it's just not true match grade.

But, with your low-powered optic, your rifle is very likely unable to take advantage of top-tier ammo at distance even if the rifle is a top-shelf, well-tuned AR.

If 500-yard-plus precision is your goal, are you able to try a higher-powered optic - at least 18x, preferably more? If so, I'd do that before changing ammo.

I've been where you are. I enjoyed starting my long-range journey with an AR, but I quickly discovered I wanted top-shelf accuracy without the fuss and bother of trying to coax a battle-rifle platform into providing it. Conversely, my son enjoys his AR/M1A/Tavor/etc rifles within the parameters one expects a battle rifle to meet. That may be you as well!

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.
Click to expand...
You didn't come across as snobbish. If anything I'm naive for expecting premium performance for bargain price.

Trying some different ammo is definitely a good exercise.

On another note, how big is the bull on the USMC rifle qual? America's finest are able to turn in some pretty impressive performance with rack grade weapons and crappy ammunition.

God bless America
 
#16
DFOOSKING said:
I'd wager the heavier pill and 18" barrel.....could it be the bullet going transonic to subsonic and just not handling it well?
Click to expand...
Could be. I tried a ten-shot group last weekend. MOA ish at 300. Some days I'm on my game and some not.

I'm going to repeat the drill this weekend with some other varieties and see if anything stands out. Besides poor marksmanship, that is.

Thanks for the reply.
 
#17
Paper wont lie to you. If you have the ability take a piece of white poster board and dray your 8" or 10" suer in the middle of it. Place it at 500Y and repeat what you were doing. This will show you exactly what is going on. You will also have a 24x36 piece of paper to show what the misses were doing. Was it all following suit?

Different match ammo is also something I would try.

Also if you know the dial to based of your reticle dial that and shoot. This will take out your holding and help you get a better gauge of what the platform is doing. Holding is also something we shooters need to do and I totally get that. But when trying to rule out a problem dialing takes a variable out of the equation.

You can also practice the KRAFT Drill at 100Y and see how you do. This will tell you what you and the platform are capable of. Again paper don't lie!!
 
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