• Win an RIX Storm S3 Thermal Imaging Scope!

    To enter, all you need to do is add an image of yourself at the range below! Subscribers get more entries, check out the plans below for a better chance of winning!

    Join the contest Subscribe

What am I doing wrong?

S

Scarface26

knuckle dragger
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 14, 2017
436
208
Southeast OK
#1
Gathering data on my 18" AR. 223 wylde, Leupold 3.5-10, Frontier 75gr. ammunition.

Everything's great at 100, 200, 300, and 400. Even turned in a 2.5 inch 3 shot group at 400.

However, at 500, the wheels fall off. The group opens up to 7 or 8 inches and is offset about 1.5moa to the right. i should ad that I'm not dialing, simply holding for elevation and windage using the reticle (dots or hashes every 2 moa - lepould ts 32 moa or something like that is the name of the reticle.)

While the ammunition is top tier, pretty sure that's not it.
Not dialing on the scope so tracking shouldn't be it.
Scope's mounted in a LaRue mount, properly torqued.
Adjusted parallax at each distance.
Didn't feel like fundamentals were off.

It has to be me, otherwise I feel like I'd see a decline in performance before "falling apart" between 400 and 500. Please give me a list of things to check tomorrow.

Thanks in Advance, and God bless America.
 
#2
Barrel twist, muzzle velocity? Much experience driving a gas gun at distance?

Ballistically challenged round would be my first guess, just because you do your part doesn’t mean the bullet is capable of doing anything extra. I can keep 77g razorcore on a 500 yard steel, but have never sat down and compared those groups to a 100 years group. I could be doing the same thing you are describing, just not digging into the weeds like you are stating.

I’m happy if the little light goes off when I aim at the target and squeeze the trigger though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scarface26
#3
roostercogburn98 said:
Barrel twist, muzzle velocity? Much experience driving a gas gun at distance?

Ballistically challenged round would be my first guess, just because you do your part doesn’t mean the bullet is capable of doing anything extra. I can keep 77g razorcore on a 500 yard steel, but have never sat down and compared those groups to a 100 years group. I could be doing the same thing you are describing, just not digging into the weeds like you are stating.

I’m happy if the little light goes off when I aim at the target and squeeze the trigger though.
Click to expand...
It's an 8 twist and no clue on the velocity. Held 10 minutes up (good starting point for 500 yards and ended up needing another moa. I can do OK driving the rifle. I've got a LaRue 308 that holds half minute out to 850 with FGMM 168's (cheaper than the 175's). Stocks are similar. Same triggers on both.

Maybe it IS the ammo :D.

Thanks for the reply.
 
#4
223 isn’t really designed for long range.
Even the “heavy” loads, at some point loses its muster. And the slightest change in wind, temp or even humidity can make the “wheels fall off”at distance
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fig and Scarface26
#5
8" at 500 / 1.6 MOA - with factory ammo is not the wheels falling off, that is good by many standards.

If you shoot 10 shots does it create a vertical string - ammo velocity inconsistently or horizontal - wind?

10x is not what I would call an ideal magnification for precision at that range, and if the reticle starts to cover up the bull it is harder to be consistent. How fine is it?

Might want to try a few different target styles to see if one is easier to align with.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: VargmatII, Scarface26 and stanley_white
#7
I wouldn’t put too much weight in a single 3 shot group at 400 yards being your gold standard for that rifle.

You’re saying that you’re holding wind and you’re 1.5 moa right? That’s only the difference of about 2 - 3mph of wind at 500 yards. Could it be your wind call is off? Maybe off on the value?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Scarface26
#8
Bottom line is, imo you've run into the practical limit of your platform and ammo - notably the optic, followed by the ammo - and that's assuming a high-quality AR platform tuned to the ammo.
  • Optic is max 10x? At 500 yards? Pfft. Be very happy with 7-8" groups, if you can do it consistently.
  • Methinks you're putting too much faith in the ammo. Hornady Frontier is not really match-grade; their 75gr BTHP bullet is good but it's not at the level of their ELDM match bullets... and in the precision rifle world, Hornady ELDM brass/bullets/factory loads are considered as rather entry level.
  • A single 3-shot group is utterly meaningless at any range, regardless of ammo quality. Ten shots can be enough to reject a lot of ammo, but 30-50 shots aggregated across multiple groups provide statistical high confidence of a rifle/load's dispersion capability. Example: A buddy of mine sent his Vudoo .22 to Lapua for lot testing; it set a single-10-shot-group record at 100 meters (109 yards) of .4 inches. He showed me the entire test report... yep, the other four 10-shot groups were the more typical one-ish inches.
  • I regularly shoot my .223 bolt gun to 1000 yards with 75-grain Hornady ELDM bullets. On calm days, hitting an 18" round plate at 1000, 8" plate at 600, etc. is routine. Wind picks up --> hitting full IPSC at 700-800 gets more "fun." But I'm running 18ish power magnification at those distances for positional practice and 27-36x for bench work.
I started this precision rifle silliness with a good 18" heavy-barrel, match-trigger AR and essentially the same ammo as you have. With a 15x scope, it was a roughly MOA combination at 100 and did pretty well out to 400. At 500, yeah, the "system" was running out of steam. I can't imagine how much worse it would have done with only 10x.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 308pirate, Ronws, camocorvette and 2 others
#9
Gents,

Appreciate all the replies. Few points

Concur that a single 3-round group is luck. Majority of three round groups being that small does indicate (not prove) that perhaps the set-up might be G2G and that I am the problem. That's the case. This combo is usually a sub moa performer.

I will chrono this load and get some numbers and report back.

The level thing -- makes sense. Bet I had the rifle slightly canted and failed to recognize it.

10 round groups -- why not? Get more data at a single sitting. When you do that long of a string, are you building a new position from scratch each shot?

Also, appreciate the kind words about a 2 ish moa group being OK, and I agree that if I could do that consistently I'd be happy. With other rifles, I can. The problem with this scenario is not only the drastic increase in size, but also the group shift. Makes me think I'm inducing a parallax error, grip, cheek pressure, something. Wind call - except it was as calm at 500 as it was at 400.

You ammo snobs have me ruffled. Might have to try something a little nicer.

Bottom line is that i need to shoot more. If it's me, and it probably is, appreciate you guys helping me figure it out.

FWIW, I've had a Bushnell 4.5-18 on this rifle before and shot about the same.

Thanks and have a great weekend.
 
#11
Scarface26 said:
Gents,

Appreciate all the replies. Few points

Concur that a single 3-round group is luck. Majority of three round groups being that small does indicate (not prove) that perhaps the set-up might be G2G and that I am the problem. That's the case. This combo is usually a sub moa performer.

I will chrono this load and get some numbers and report back.

The level thing -- makes sense. Bet I had the rifle slightly canted and failed to recognize it.

10 round groups -- why not? Get more data at a single sitting. When you do that long of a string, are you building a new position from scratch each shot?

Also, appreciate the kind words about a 2 ish moa group being OK, and I agree that if I could do that consistently I'd be happy. With other rifles, I can. The problem with this scenario is not only the drastic increase in size, but also the group shift. Makes me think I'm inducing a parallax error, grip, cheek pressure, something. Wind call - except it was as calm at 500 as it was at 400.

You ammo snobs have me ruffled. Might have to try something a little nicer.

Bottom line is that i need to shoot more. If it's me, and it probably is, appreciate you guys helping me figure it out.

FWIW, I've had a Bushnell 4.5-18 on this rifle before and shot about the same.

Thanks and have a great weekend.
Click to expand...
With all due respect a 2 mph wind can easily be mistaken for calm. Add that in with some spin drift, trigger pull, and not being level and you might have the source of your shift.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Emerson0311, camocorvette and Scarface26
#12
Scarface26 said:
You ammo snobs have me ruffled. Might have to try something a little nicer.
Click to expand...
Apologies if my tone came across as snobbish... While the 75gr Hornady Frontier is vastly better than ubiquitous 55/62gr ball, it's just not true match grade.

But, with your low-powered optic, your rifle is very likely unable to take advantage of top-tier ammo at distance even if the rifle is a top-shelf, well-tuned AR.

If 500-yard-plus precision is your goal, are you able to try a higher-powered optic - at least 18x, preferably more? If so, I'd do that before changing ammo.

I've been where you are. I enjoyed starting my long-range journey with an AR, but I quickly discovered I wanted top-shelf accuracy without the fuss and bother of trying to coax a battle-rifle platform into providing it. Conversely, my son enjoys his AR/M1A/Tavor/etc rifles within the parameters one expects a battle rifle to meet. That may be you as well!

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ronws and camocorvette
#13
DownhillFromHere said:
Apologies if my tone came across as snobbish... While the 75gr Hornady Frontier is vastly better than ubiquitous 55/62gr ball, it's just not true match grade.

But, with your low-powered optic, your rifle is very likely unable to take advantage of top-tier ammo at distance even if the rifle is a top-shelf, well-tuned AR.

If 500-yard-plus precision is your goal, are you able to try a higher-powered optic - at least 18x, preferably more? If so, I'd do that before changing ammo.

I've been where you are. I enjoyed starting my long-range journey with an AR, but I quickly discovered I wanted top-shelf accuracy without the fuss and bother of trying to coax a battle-rifle platform into providing it. Conversely, my son enjoys his AR/M1A/Tavor/etc rifles within the parameters one expects a battle rifle to meet. That may be you as well!

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.
Click to expand...
You didn't come across as snobbish. If anything I'm naive for expecting premium performance for bargain price.

Trying some different ammo is definitely a good exercise.

On another note, how big is the bull on the USMC rifle qual? America's finest are able to turn in some pretty impressive performance with rack grade weapons and crappy ammunition.

God bless America
 
#16
DFOOSKING said:
I'd wager the heavier pill and 18" barrel.....could it be the bullet going transonic to subsonic and just not handling it well?
Click to expand...
Could be. I tried a ten-shot group last weekend. MOA ish at 300. Some days I'm on my game and some not.

I'm going to repeat the drill this weekend with some other varieties and see if anything stands out. Besides poor marksmanship, that is.

Thanks for the reply.
 
#17
Paper wont lie to you. If you have the ability take a piece of white poster board and dray your 8" or 10" suer in the middle of it. Place it at 500Y and repeat what you were doing. This will show you exactly what is going on. You will also have a 24x36 piece of paper to show what the misses were doing. Was it all following suit?

Different match ammo is also something I would try.

Also if you know the dial to based of your reticle dial that and shoot. This will take out your holding and help you get a better gauge of what the platform is doing. Holding is also something we shooters need to do and I totally get that. But when trying to rule out a problem dialing takes a variable out of the equation.

You can also practice the KRAFT Drill at 100Y and see how you do. This will tell you what you and the platform are capable of. Again paper don't lie!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scarface26
#18
Kickin45 said:
223 isn’t really designed for long range.
Even the “heavy” loads, at some point loses its muster. And the slightest change in wind, temp or even humidity can make the “wheels fall off”at distance
Click to expand...
This ^^^^^

Though I mostly shoot 30 caliber guns, I own two really good shooting 5.56 guns. To hold them at one MOA at 500 takes dead still perfect conditions, usually early in the morning before any thermals start building.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LinkLow and Scarface26
#19
Late to the party. But it may also be helpful to post groups. Not all groups are equal? Got a few fliers?

I am of the (meager) opinion you should be ok to 500 but your barrel twist may not be fast enough for those big heavy bullets. (I am not an expert, but military used 1/7 for tracer rounds which were super long--heavier bullets generally are longer). One of the other "tricks" is instead of big heavy 75 gr, move down to 69 grain and see if you can pinch more speed outta of it.

"In theory" you should be ok to 800, but I am an experimentalist, so yeah, something ain't right. Also the bullet does start to drift right (its small at 500) as you go out. If its Repeatable, you record your dope and drive on. (IIRC for me its maybe 0.1 or 0.2 mills--its in my dope book because I'll forget it DOH!)
 
#20
Update: Been away from home for a few days but before I left I shot two five round groups at 500. One with some MK262 and another with some Freedom Munitions 69 grain stuff. The 262 grouped at just over 1 moa - 5 and a 1//4 and the FM was about 5 5/8. The right drift was there, but not as large as earlier with the Frontier.

Makes me think that i read the wind wrong (likely) or had a parallax error, or had an NPA error before. Maybe a combination of all three? Also makes me want to revert to the .308. So much easier.

BUT, two five round groups are enough justification to switch ammo, RIGHT? That was a joke. More to follow. Thanks

God bless America
 
#21
Scarface26 said:
Update: Been away from home for a few days but before I left I shot two five round groups at 500. One with some MK262 and another with some Freedom Munitions 69 grain stuff. The 262 grouped at just over 1 moa - 5 and a 1//4 and the FM was about 5 5/8. The right drift was there, but not as large as earlier with the Frontier.

Makes me think that i read the wind wrong (likely) or had a parallax error, or had an NPA error before. Maybe a combination of all three? Also makes me want to revert to the .308. So much easier.

BUT, two five round groups are enough justification to switch ammo, RIGHT? That was a joke. More to follow. Thanks

God bless America
Click to expand...

Best of luck to you.

All it takes is a mouse-fart of wind to push the .223 off course once you start getting to 500 and beyond. Even being off two mph on your wind call makes for over five inches of drift at 500 that you didn't account for. Add those pesky little shifts that always seem to happen between 200-400 that aren't easily picked up, and you can be chasing your tail quickly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scarface26 and Emerson0311
#22
I have shot about 4k from 2 lots of 75gr BTHP and have doped it twice from 100m to 1km.

It shoots just fine as long as your precision is good at 100m. I do shoot with 1/7 twist however.

Some of their bullets have their tips a bit deformed, I sort those to training ammo (I shoot with less pressure) but they shoot very well to 300m where I usually shoot farthest with them.

I have one next 3k lot already waiting for reloading, I hope it carries the same performance as the earlier ones.

I just shot through pressed cardboard 2 yards from muzzle and the shot still connected at 300m, IPSC sized target so I would say they fly pretty straight.

I would say the 10x scope limits you the most.

If you feel the scope is ok, check that the terrain / shooting position / etc does not change when you shoot at the longer range. It might change how you perform.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scarface26
#23
diggler1833 said:
Best of luck to you.

All it takes is a mouse-fart of wind to push the .223 off course once you start getting to 500 and beyond. Even being off two mph on your wind call makes for over five inches of drift at 500 that you didn't account for. Add those pesky little shifts that always seem to happen between 200-400 that aren't easily picked up, and you can be chasing your tail quickly.
Click to expand...

I agree with the other posters. Your close groups show good fundamentals. 5.56 just gets pushed around past 450 or so. I've shot a lot of 5.56, including in competitions (77grain SMK). It just sucks out that far.

DocRDS said:
I am of the (meager) opinion you should be ok to 500 but your barrel twist may not be fast enough for those big heavy bullets. (I am not an expert, but military used 1/7 for tracer rounds which were super long--heavier bullets generally are longer). One of the other "tricks" is instead of big heavy 75 gr, move down to 69 grain and see if you can pinch more speed outta of it.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I use 1:7 for 77grain.

And 308? It's a venerable cartridge but quite dated at this point. Try a 6.5CM instead; it will spoil you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scarface26
#24
roostercogburn98 said:
Barrel twist, muzzle velocity? Much experience driving a gas gun at distance?

Ballistically challenged round would be my first guess, just because you do your part doesn’t mean the bullet is capable of doing anything extra. I can keep 77g razorcore on a 500 yard steel, but have never sat down and compared those groups to a 100 years group. I could be doing the same thing you are describing, just not digging into the weeds like you are stating.

I’m happy if the little light goes off when I aim at the target and squeeze the trigger though.
Click to expand...
Just added the Little Green Lights to my 6-8-1000m steel . Its a game changer and very rewarding to see the green light after the shot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roostercogburn98
#25
Near miss said:
I have shot about 4k from 2 lots of 75gr BTHP and have doped it twice from 100m to 1km.

It shoots just fine as long as your precision is good at 100m. I do shoot with 1/7 twist however.

Some of their bullets have their tips a bit deformed, I sort those to training ammo (I shoot with less pressure) but they shoot very well to 300m where I usually shoot farthest with them.

I have one next 3k lot already waiting for reloading, I hope it carries the same performance as the earlier ones.

I just shot through pressed cardboard 2 yards from muzzle and the shot still connected at 300m, IPSC sized target so I would say they fly pretty straight.

I would say the 10x scope limits you the most.

If you feel the scope is ok, check that the terrain / shooting position / etc does not change when you shoot at the longer range. It might change how you perform.
Click to expand...
What you said about shooting position changing is something i hadn't thought about. Kind of like a thread i read on here a few years back about zeroing. If I can find it, I'll link. Reminiscent of the Kraft drill but not identical.
 
#26
DeftSystems said:
I agree with the other posters. Your close groups show good fundamentals. 5.56 just gets pushed around past 450 or so. I've shot a lot of 5.56, including in competitions (77grain SMK). It just sucks out that far.


Agreed. I use 1:7 for 77grain.

And 308? It's a venerable cartridge but quite dated at this point. Try a 6.5CM instead; it will spoil you.
Click to expand...
6.5 cm is definitely on the menu, but in a bolt gun. Tried it in a gasser and it didn't impress me. It's not a large frame issue, my .308 OBR is a 1/2 moa rifle out to 850 - for three shots. A lot of three shot groups on that one.


Thanks all for the replies
 
  • Like
Reactions: DeftSystems
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
WTF am I doing wrong.
Replies
15
Views
794
Slides
Slides
6
What am I doing wrong? Explanations/Tips 300WSM Berger 200.20X
Replies
11
Views
1K
6.5SH
6
Goosepilot
Precision shooting questions
Replies
1
Views
151
kravi
kravi
N
What am i doing wrong ?
Replies
27
Views
1K
Molon
M
pangris
Review of Roaming Shot Range (1000 yard facility) Slaughter, LA
Replies
13
Views
1K
pangris
pangris
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts