Good evening, gents. I see a lot of videos, reviews, and marketing ploy for thermal clip-ons in front of LPVOs. Does anyone have experience with them in front of higher base magnification optics? Are there any that are clear up to, say, 10x optical prior to the thermal unit? Basically, if I wanted to shoot longer range and had good glass already, are there any clip on units I can utilize, or am I stuck with a dedicated thermal rifle and optic?
Thermal clip on for nx8 4-32
- Thread starter Kathil
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There are diminishing returns with higher magnification on the low end. First, if the min magnification is too high, you may not be able to see see the entire screen on the thermal. That is a big problem if you can't see menus or need wise FOV.
Second is that doesn't matter how good your glass is, you are loved king at a screen that will become pixelated.
Check this thread out
@koshkin @wigwamitus or anyone else who understands this stuff - can you explain how any of the lower end (non-Risley prisim) thermal clip ons work with their base magnification not being 1x/unity? I see that the Armasight Jockey 640 is actually a 1x thermal, so by my understanding it would work... https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...prisim-thermal-clip-on-magnification.7243893/
Second is that doesn't matter how good your glass is, you are loved king at a screen that will become pixelated.
Check this thread out
@koshkin @wigwamitus or anyone else who understands this stuff - can you explain how any of the lower end (non-Risley prisim) thermal clip ons work with their base magnification not being 1x/unity? I see that the Armasight Jockey 640 is actually a 1x thermal, so by my understanding it would work... https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...prisim-thermal-clip-on-magnification.7243893/
I run a Steiner C35 in front of several optics and there is indeed a degradation as magnification increases. That said, target identification and point of aim are very different things. I tend to ID at low mag, then can zoom in for taking the shot if needed. For my situations, the Steiner works great. If I were hunting wide open plains with lines of sight to critters 1000 yards out, I would want a better thermal (meaning more money.)
For me, 4X is too much. My favorite - by far - with the Steiner is a 1.5-15March, it is the perfect thermal companion, at least as I use thermals.
For me, 4X is too much. My favorite - by far - with the Steiner is a 1.5-15March, it is the perfect thermal companion, at least as I use thermals.
I run a NX8 2.5-20x with a Berring Optics Hogster-C and it works great, but 2.5x barely fits. At 2.5x I lose some width and the corners of the screen. At 4x I can't see the settings information listed along the top and bottom of the screen. This varies by thermal model, so others may be fine. But 4x would be a deal breaker for me.
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The eyepiece of a clip-on (or any thermal scope for that matter), projects an image out. In order for a clip-on to be 1x, it needs to project a field of view that is exactly the same angle as the FOV it sees. That is how magnification is defined: AFOV divided by FOV, with AFOV being Apparent FIeld of View.
In a digital optic like a thermal, the AFOV is defined by the size of the microdispaly and the specifics of the optics in the eyepiece.
In many modern clip-ons, there are more pixels in the microdisplay than in the image sensor.
In order to get the magnification to exactly 1x, you constrain the image taken in by the objective to a smaller portion of the microdisplay (something called windowing).
That way, you can decrease the projected AFOV to exactly match the incoming FOV.
By changing where exactly that "window" is positioned in the microdisplay, you can also do the alignment (collimation).
That is why Risley prisms are an unnecessary complication in most modern clip-ons.
Risley prisms are necessary in analog devices like Night Vision clip-ons that are not digitized in any sort of way.
ILya
Look at the pictures in the thread I referenced above. The screen is 1x but may only be half of the FOV of the optic. So you have to go to 2x on the optic to see the entire screen. All I am saying is that on 4x the OP may not see as much of the screen as needed.
You lose some pixels on the periphery if the day optic is on 4x, but that does not change the magnification of the thermal.
ILya
Wouldn't something like this work great? Or would you run into issues with not being able to see the menus?
guideir-thermal.com
TB 1250 LRF PRO - Thermal Clip-On
Guide TB 1250 LRF PRO is the first HD thermal imaging clip-on with integrated laser range finder for riflescope, 1280x1024 @12µm sensor, 18mK detector, perfect for hunting with AR and rifle in the US.
guideir-thermal.com
This is the device I'm looking at as well.Wouldn't something like this work great? Or would you run into issues with not being able to see the menus?
TB 1250 LRF PRO - Thermal Clip-On
Guide TB 1250 LRF PRO is the first HD thermal imaging clip-on with integrated laser range finder for riflescope, 1280x1024 @12µm sensor, 18mK detector, perfect for hunting with AR and rifle in the US.
I can say I just got my first thermal from @tam4511 at SOK, check the specs
guideir-thermal.com
I haven't had time to look through it at range but inside a house looking at an old electric wall heater on 1x digital zoom behind my Athlon Talos 4-14 it's pretty amazing. I bumped digital zoom up to 2x and it's even better and pixelation isn't very noticeable.
Again I haven't had this out in the field yet.
What I can say is it's REALLY impressive for the price.
See here for some TA451 (384 core) and TA651 (640 core) where he posted pics at varying optical zooms out to 750+yards.
www.snipershide.com
For the price, i don't see much of anything beating the TB1250.......go google/YouTube the EoTech ClipIR LR thermal Gen2 and compare specs.
All of this is incredibly hard to compare or gain any "really accurate" idea of what's visually going on without having hands on and your own eyes on it.
TA 451 - Thermal Clip-On
The Guide TA451 thermal clip-on can be instantly clipped on a day scope to turn it into the perfect versatile tool for hunting
guideir-thermal.com
I haven't had time to look through it at range but inside a house looking at an old electric wall heater on 1x digital zoom behind my Athlon Talos 4-14 it's pretty amazing. I bumped digital zoom up to 2x and it's even better and pixelation isn't very noticeable.
Again I haven't had this out in the field yet.
What I can say is it's REALLY impressive for the price.
See here for some TA451 (384 core) and TA651 (640 core) where he posted pics at varying optical zooms out to 750+yards.
Night Vision - Guide Sensmart Thermal Blowout!
Hey y'all! We have had our remaining Guide units on sale and we don't have many left! These were the best units for the money at the normal price, they are a steal now with the 20% off add-to-cart pricing! We have a handful of TA (Clip-on) variants left, each one comes with our custom mount...
www.snipershide.com
For the price, i don't see much of anything beating the TB1250.......go google/YouTube the EoTech ClipIR LR thermal Gen2 and compare specs.
All of this is incredibly hard to compare or gain any "really accurate" idea of what's visually going on without having hands on and your own eyes on it.
Yeah. I'm really hoping to find a thermal clip on that will work on multiple rifles. I'm obviously not worried about ones with LPVOs or 1x optics of varying types. The 4-32 NX8 is going on an 18" 6.5 creed AR10 build as soon as expertvoice restocks the one I want (ffp mil-xt in FDE). I really appreciate all your input and advice, gents. I'm definitely a buy once cry once kinda guy, but I'm also on a retired military budget, so I really don't want to invest in something like this and be disappointed with it.
You may need to worry about 1x if it is not a variable scope that goes higher. The screen is a tiny FOV by itself.
Correct. If a device is meant to be used as a clip on, frequently the screen size looks very small at 1x.
It kind of works, you can see the screen, but FOV may be very disappointing if you put the dot and Clip-on close to your eye and the screen image can be very hard to see if further away - small.
My Clip-on comes with a magnifying eye piece you screw on to use as a hand held monocular. Without it the screen is like looking at a TV the size of a postage stamp.
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My Clip-on allows me to set four different points of aim.
I use this Clip-on on a 300BO AR SBR with 1-6x using two of the points of aim so I have it zeroed for either 110g V-Max supers at 100yds or 220g Subs at 100 yards.
Also on a 6.5 Grendel AR using a 1-6x and on a 6.5 Creedmoore SP&10 with a 2 5-20x although with the thermal I rarely go over 8x, image gets too pixilated.
I've tried it on all kinds of stuff, image quality is a little better on parallax adjustable scopes, but once the thermal is attached there isn't much different between a $500 scope and a $5000 scope for image quality.
I also have a thermal scope that I can use on several rifles by just swapping out the day scope for the thermal. Actually a better setup in hind sight than the Clip-on. Balance and ease of reaching the controls is better.
I have a dual visible and IR laser on each rifle. Before I remove the day scope I make sure it matches the day scope. Swap to thermal and verify zero with rifle on bipod and rear bag. Look through scope, look at laser, back and forth. I don't usually have to be adjust the thermal unless I am changing the zero distance.
I now have a thermal with an IR laser for quick shots using NOD and can point out hogs to those in the group hunting with night vision only.
Back to day scope, verify with laser and you are still good.
I use this Clip-on on a 300BO AR SBR with 1-6x using two of the points of aim so I have it zeroed for either 110g V-Max supers at 100yds or 220g Subs at 100 yards.
Also on a 6.5 Grendel AR using a 1-6x and on a 6.5 Creedmoore SP&10 with a 2 5-20x although with the thermal I rarely go over 8x, image gets too pixilated.
I've tried it on all kinds of stuff, image quality is a little better on parallax adjustable scopes, but once the thermal is attached there isn't much different between a $500 scope and a $5000 scope for image quality.
I also have a thermal scope that I can use on several rifles by just swapping out the day scope for the thermal. Actually a better setup in hind sight than the Clip-on. Balance and ease of reaching the controls is better.
I have a dual visible and IR laser on each rifle. Before I remove the day scope I make sure it matches the day scope. Swap to thermal and verify zero with rifle on bipod and rear bag. Look through scope, look at laser, back and forth. I don't usually have to be adjust the thermal unless I am changing the zero distance.
I now have a thermal with an IR laser for quick shots using NOD and can point out hogs to those in the group hunting with night vision only.
Back to day scope, verify with laser and you are still good.
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As a general rule of thumb, you want the clip on FOV to be the same or smaller than the lowest magnification on your day optic. To convert form Deg FOV to feet at 100y, multiply the FOV deg by 5.5 to get a rough estimate. 10.5 deg FOV in a thermal would have approximately 57.75ft FOV at 100y (10.5 * 5.5 = 57.75).
The NX8 2.5-20 has an FOV of 41.8ft at 100y which equates to 7.6 deg (41.8 / 5.5 = 7.6). Therefore, I would look for a clip on that has a horizontal FOV close to 7.6 deg.
The reason for all of this is because you don't want to zoom in on a screen unnecessarily if you can help it. You can have too narrow FOV as well so I like to stay close to the base mag of the scope to give a good blend of FOV and detail.
Once you have the FOV side of the equation solved, then you can find the sensor size that meets your budget. Of course, a 640 sensor will cost more but give you better definition than say a 384 sensor. If you plan to use a 1-8x optic as well, I would consider a wider FOV clip on with the understanding that the 1-8 will benefit from seeing more.
Something to consider is that a 640 sensor at 15 deg FOV will support the same scope magnification as a 320 sensor at 7.5 deg FOV. The FOV is cut in half while the resolution is also cut in half (think in terms of pixel density per deg FOV).
Finally, a larger sensor gives you either (a) a larger FOV or (b) higher definition picture at the same FOV but requires a larger lens to do so (increased size)
The NX8 2.5-20 has an FOV of 41.8ft at 100y which equates to 7.6 deg (41.8 / 5.5 = 7.6). Therefore, I would look for a clip on that has a horizontal FOV close to 7.6 deg.
The reason for all of this is because you don't want to zoom in on a screen unnecessarily if you can help it. You can have too narrow FOV as well so I like to stay close to the base mag of the scope to give a good blend of FOV and detail.
Once you have the FOV side of the equation solved, then you can find the sensor size that meets your budget. Of course, a 640 sensor will cost more but give you better definition than say a 384 sensor. If you plan to use a 1-8x optic as well, I would consider a wider FOV clip on with the understanding that the 1-8 will benefit from seeing more.
Something to consider is that a 640 sensor at 15 deg FOV will support the same scope magnification as a 320 sensor at 7.5 deg FOV. The FOV is cut in half while the resolution is also cut in half (think in terms of pixel density per deg FOV).
Finally, a larger sensor gives you either (a) a larger FOV or (b) higher definition picture at the same FOV but requires a larger lens to do so (increased size)
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