What are you using for the diving board mounts? I am running Seekings MXM mounts on most of my AR rifles and Badger rings on my bolt guns.
Precision Rifle Gear Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions
- Thread starter skyewalker
- Start date
Does this unit have integrated sensors for pressure, temperature and humidity measurement please?
I saw the video. I just wanted to make sure I need to know the local atmospheric conditions anyway. I don't want to carry 3 other electronic devices connected to the rifle. The weather's the same at my place, even 1 km away.
I’ll take along the kestrel, even the most expensive kestrel along with this is still FAR cheaper than a Wilcox. My only concern so far is the inclination seems to be read from the phone and not the LRF itself.
I was about to say..until the RAPTAR XE is low power or Wilcox and the FDA suddenly do an about face, I don’t think you’ve got anything else on the market that’s in current production.
I’ll have to check tomorrow, but I thought I was getting inclination readings from the unit itself when not connected to my phone.
I can get accurate inclination readings when lazing from the unit in either ABI or ABE mode. It’s only when taking environmentals on the AB BOSS that inclination comes from the phone. Is this not what you are experiencing?
I want one of the tan ones so if that was an option I’d be interested.
Anyone use one at a match yet? Can't think another laser that is in this ballpark with these features (even with the Magpul one supposedly coming out next month).
So here’s a consolidated list of pros and cons for both the Fire4000 and Impact 4000. I’ve gotten these from forum posts and @X-ring ’s vid. LMK if I made some mistakes or if you have something to add.
Pros
Neutrals/Unknowns/Unclear
Pros
Neutrals/Unknowns/Unclear
Notes:
*why the Fire4000 not having onboard environments is probably no big deal.
**ditto with the Fire4000‘s lack of a compass: see here
Impact 4000 (Vortex)
Cons- Battery life in cold weather with off-the-shelf batteries is very poor (special battery helps, but not sure how much)
- Indication for battery failure is immediately before unit shuts down (not helpful)
- LCD screen is sluggish in the cold
- Big boi, a far bit larger
- A little heavier
- Has own ballistic software, can’t true the ballistic curve at multiple distances simultaneously
- Laser for ranging is different than visible laser used for zeroing. So, must skyline confirm zero with poles, edge of buildings, etc.
- $300-$600 more expensive. $1700 currently at Eurooptic with VX15 coupon; $2000 retail.
- Bluetooth remote
- Too bright at night
- ~1/2sec slower for ranging @ ~600yds
- No haptic feedback
Pros
- Amazing warranty
- Onboard inclinometer
Neutrals/Unknowns/Unclear
- Has onboard environmental sensors* (but these might get messed up by the sun beating down, or shooting from a warm space into the cold, etc)
- Has a compass built-in**
- Made in Taiwan (a pro to me, but maybe not to others)
- Poly exterior
- Workflow, building profiles, profile management, tethering limitations, Kestrel connectivity ease of use, etc
Fire4000 (Tango Innovations)
Cons- Can’t read the screen with polarized sunglasses (not sure how big a deal this is)
- Only a 3yr warranty
- Remote cable doesn’t have a right-angle option
- Too bright at night
- Too easy to switch between meters & yds
- “When updating environmental measurements using the phone and not having phone perfectly at 0° (the) incline reading gets wonky.” from @boomslang (link)
Pros
- AB onboard, can true ballistics at multi-distances simultaneously
- A fair bit smaller
- A little lighter
- ~1/2 sec faster ranging @ ~600yds
- Cheaper, $1400
- Wired remote
- Haptic feedback
- OLED screen (apparently not sluggish in the cold, users confirm please)
- Onboard inclinometer
Neutrals/Unknowns/Unclear
- Cold weather performance still up in the air (28°F test isn’t actually cold, in my book. It’s warm.)
- Made in China (a neg to me, but maybe not to others)
- No environmentals onboard*, but as mentioned it does measure shooting angle for correct ballistic solution
- No compass**
- Metal exterior
- Workflow, building profiles, profile management, tethering limitations, Kestrel connectivity ease of use, etc
- Zeroing ease (is viz laser same as ranging laser?)
Notes:
*why the Fire4000 not having onboard environments is probably no big deal.
**ditto with the Fire4000‘s lack of a compass: see here
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I know that’s a big deal with inside-the-lens LRF binos as I have first-hand experience with that.
The LCD readout in the Vortex Fury’s (non-ab) is… “hairy” is how I’d describe it. The display in the first gen SIG 10k’s I looked through, however, were so much sharper.
However, is it a very big deal with a regular screen? I mean, first-hand? I’m curious as I haven’t had issues with LCD screens. I have no idea, just asking.
I bet that is the biggest reason why the vortex screen goes to garbage during the cold. LCD screens ghost under a temp threshold (I think around 32F).
Inclinometer works fine lazing with unit (Fire4000) whether connected to phone or not. It’s when updating environmental measurements using the phone and not having phone perfectly at 0* that incline reading gets wonky. At least that is my experience thus far.
ETA
Right angle remote cable would be nice for sure.
No enviro on board is huge negative to me. Especially for shooting temp tables - this cuts across the standalone unit design pretty heavily.
Also - I think the computer cable remote cable is a negative.
I’m very torn on the cable. I like not having yet another Bluetooth connection to deal with but the extra length of the cable is proving annoying.
The on board enviros is also split for me. I don’t mind having the kestrel but I do mind having to have the phone too. I couldn’t get the kestrel to pair with the range finder. But to be fair it was 15 here yesterday when I was out playing with it all so I wasn’t exactly spending a lot of time on it.
For me it comes down to the price point that includes AB. I don’t want to have another ballistics solver, even if it matches AB. I am, not so, patiently waiting for Quantum to support all the things, but I have faith they it will eventually. Already being able to send the rifle profiles to the kestrel is a big headache removed for me. I’m hoping that this will be supported in quantum eventually. Since I have to have the phone anyway to change profiles, I’d much rather just have one app to deal with.
The on board enviros is also split for me. I don’t mind having the kestrel but I do mind having to have the phone too. I couldn’t get the kestrel to pair with the range finder. But to be fair it was 15 here yesterday when I was out playing with it all so I wasn’t exactly spending a lot of time on it.
For me it comes down to the price point that includes AB. I don’t want to have another ballistics solver, even if it matches AB. I am, not so, patiently waiting for Quantum to support all the things, but I have faith they it will eventually. Already being able to send the rifle profiles to the kestrel is a big headache removed for me. I’m hoping that this will be supported in quantum eventually. Since I have to have the phone anyway to change profiles, I’d much rather just have one app to deal with.
The NEED for it to be paired to something for accurate data is unacceptable at this price point. It’s asking for failure of a critical component.
How can you be concerned about remote Bluetooth (there’s full backup buttons on unit) but not be concerned about Bluetooth when it comes to getting core data for a solution??
If I HAVE to have Bluetooth I would rather it be as limited as possible. Since I have to have Bluetooth to get environmental onto the device, I’d rather not have a second connection to worry about with the remote. But as I said above, I’m torn on it as the length of the wire is annoying and especially not having a 90 degree connector.
I’d much rather have on board environmentals but since this doesn’t have it I accept it for what it is. I’m not going to drop 6x+ the price to get a WILCOX or similar. I’ll take the trade off to not have environmentals to have AB. Which is why I haven’t gotten the vortex option.
I’m hoping the magpul version will check all the boxes. But who knows. I will say the Tango had no issues in the 15 degrees I had it out in yesterday for 2 hours.
This is in no way the be all/end all WMLRF. There are a lot of trade offs. I don’t like having to use the phone to change profiles. I don’t like that when the phone is connected the inclination is read from the phone, that seems pointless to me since the device does it and is far more likely to be correct than however you are holding the phone. But for the price it’s the best option going, for me, at this point.
No onboard environmentals is a killer, including the lack of a compass. I expect AB solver, onboard environmentals, and an integrated level will come along soon enough. Hell, considering the price of the Athlon Garmin copy now, all that could be in the same box in a couple years. Probably marketing will keep the devices separate though; better overall profits selling a bunch of smaller items to impulse purchasers.
No one has explained why onboard enviros are that important. Did you hear xring’s explanation in the vid as to why he didn’t mind their absence?
TL;DR
I’m inferring that once you update the enviros and disconnect the phone, the WMLRF will go back to auto-measuring the correct angle IF you’ve kept the phone at 0°. Is that right @boomslang?
And also I imagine this isn’t an issue if you connect directly to the kestrel? @boomslang
Sounds like either a software bug or a poorly thought out process.
See:
www.snipershide.com
TL;DR
- Enviros don’t change that much as you are shooting
- Check with the kestrel occasionally throughout the day and lock changed readings into the WMLRF
- I’ll add: with temp, certainly, the sun is going to heat the unit up and you can’t really cool it down (unlike just spinning your kestrel for a bit)
- I’ll also add: you’re gonna have a Kestrel for wind anyway?
It has an integrated level, I believe. However: if you’re updating environmentals via the phone, you (currently) need to have the phone level or it somehow affects the onboard inclinometer.
I’m inferring that once you update the enviros and disconnect the phone, the WMLRF will go back to auto-measuring the correct angle IF you’ve kept the phone at 0°. Is that right @boomslang?
And also I imagine this isn’t an issue if you connect directly to the kestrel? @boomslang
Sounds like either a software bug or a poorly thought out process.
See:
Precision Rifle Gear - Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions
What are you using for the diving board mounts? I am running Seekings MXM mounts on most of my AR rifles and Badger rings on my bolt guns.
www.snipershide.com
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I’ll also add that lack of a compass doesn’t appear to be a big deal because even if you could have real-time wind mph and wind direction sync with your DOF, you’re only getting wind at your location. Not at the target nor anywhere in-between.
Until we have that fancy military LiDAR wind-reading voodoo I’m not convinced the whole compass/wind thing is worth it. Especially if you must have your kestrel in a wind vane 100%.
Now, somehow marking your static/average wind speed and direction through LRF binos or Kestrel (or some other way)…and transmitting that to the WMLRF AND having the WMLRF know if you’ve changed DOF vs. the transmitted readings…that would be cool for pdog shooters like me that constantly swivel around 100° to shoot them.
It would reduce my use of a printed wind rose.
Not sure how much PRS or even field matches rotate shooters around that much? I’m not a competitor.
For me, a WMLRF doesn’t remove a LRF bino or a Kestrel from my gear list; it just supplements it. After I find and laze a target in my binos, refind it in the scope and shoot, I then could use the WMLRF to laze any nearby pdogs that I happen to spy. After a (very) short time I’d go back to the LRF binos.
Because finding targets all day with just a rifle scope sucks balls!
A WMLRF would seem to be a convenience thing, for me anyway. In competition, Xring said there’s zero use for it in PRS as it’s all known distances. He said an WMLRF is only useful in UKD field matches.
Of course, it would be very helpful tactically or in limited hunting situations in which your primary target disappears and another one appears at a significantly changed distance (my use).
Until we have that fancy military LiDAR wind-reading voodoo I’m not convinced the whole compass/wind thing is worth it. Especially if you must have your kestrel in a wind vane 100%.
Now, somehow marking your static/average wind speed and direction through LRF binos or Kestrel (or some other way)…and transmitting that to the WMLRF AND having the WMLRF know if you’ve changed DOF vs. the transmitted readings…that would be cool for pdog shooters like me that constantly swivel around 100° to shoot them.
It would reduce my use of a printed wind rose.
Not sure how much PRS or even field matches rotate shooters around that much? I’m not a competitor.
For me, a WMLRF doesn’t remove a LRF bino or a Kestrel from my gear list; it just supplements it. After I find and laze a target in my binos, refind it in the scope and shoot, I then could use the WMLRF to laze any nearby pdogs that I happen to spy. After a (very) short time I’d go back to the LRF binos.
Because finding targets all day with just a rifle scope sucks balls!
A WMLRF would seem to be a convenience thing, for me anyway. In competition, Xring said there’s zero use for it in PRS as it’s all known distances. He said an WMLRF is only useful in UKD field matches.
Of course, it would be very helpful tactically or in limited hunting situations in which your primary target disappears and another one appears at a significantly changed distance (my use).
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No one has explained why onboard enviros is that important. Did you hear xring’s explanation in the vid as to why he didn’t mind their absence?
TL;DR
- Enviros don’t change that much as you are shooting
- Check with the kestrel occasionally throughout the day and lock changed readings into the WMLRF
- I’ll add: with temp, certainly, the sun is going to heat the unit up and you can’t really cool it down (unlike just spinning your kestrel for a bit)
- I’ll also add: you’re gonna have a Kestrel for wind anyway?
It has an integrated level, I believe. However: if you’re updating environmentals via the phone, you (currently) need to have the phone level or it somehow affects the onboard inclinometer.
I’m inferring that once you update the enviros and disconnect the phone, the WMLRF will go back to auto-measuring the correct angle IF you’ve kept the phone at 0°. Is that right @boomslang?
And also I imagine this isn’t an issue if you connect directly to the kestrel? @boomslang
Sounds like either a software bug or a poorly thought out process.
See:
Precision Rifle Gear - Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions
What are you using for the diving board mounts? I am running Seekings MXM mounts on most of my AR rifles and Badger rings on my bolt guns.
I haven’t tried connecting to a kestrel yet, so I can’t comment on that.
Lazing from the unit seems to generate an accurate incline reading regardless of what the the phone does. I’ve only so far noticed the incline reading matter on the phone when getting your info directly from the phone or when generating a range card on the phone. If anyone else is experiencing otherwise, feel free to correct me.
No one has explained why onboard enviros are that important. Did you hear xring’s explanation in the vid as to why he didn’t mind their absence?
TL;DR
- Enviros don’t change that much as you are shooting
- Check with the kestrel occasionally throughout the day and lock changed readings into the WMLRF
- I’ll add: with temp, certainly, the sun is going to heat the unit up and you can’t really cool it down (unlike just spinning your kestrel for a bit)
- I’ll also add: you’re gonna have a Kestrel for wind anyway?
It has an integrated level, I believe. However: if you’re updating environmentals via the phone, you (currently) need to have the phone level or it somehow affects the onboard inclinometer.
I’m inferring that once you update the enviros and disconnect the phone, the WMLRF will go back to auto-measuring the correct angle IF you’ve kept the phone at 0°. Is that right @boomslang?
And also I imagine this isn’t an issue if you connect directly to the kestrel? @boomslang
Sounds like either a software bug or a poorly thought out process.
See:
Precision Rifle Gear - Tango Innovations FIRE4000 WMLRF Initial Impressions
What are you using for the diving board mounts? I am running Seekings MXM mounts on most of my AR rifles and Badger rings on my bolt guns.
I just explained. Temp tables.
If you’re unaware temperature will impact your velocity (yes, even for “temp stable” powders). The ability to adjust the mv to the current temperature is a critical function of a ballistics solver. The inability to understand the temperature and adjust as a standalone is unusual at this price point.
Also lol at the you’re gonna use kestrel for wind comment. You must not shot much at distance. Wind at shooter is completely useless
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I’ve just updated my summary above with some of this later info.
About the wired remote vs Bluetooth: some people are worried about BT electronic signature giving them away. I think this is a very niche population.
In my case, very few pdogs have equipment to detect BT at a distance, and even fewer have counter-sniper teams lol.
For me, the issue with a battery-powered remote is…worrying about yet another battery, especially in cold weather. Plus BT is a little flakey.
See, I own a non-ballistic Kestrel, a 3500, so I don’t know what a Kestrel temp table is exactly.
About the wired remote vs Bluetooth: some people are worried about BT electronic signature giving them away. I think this is a very niche population.
In my case, very few pdogs have equipment to detect BT at a distance, and even fewer have counter-sniper teams lol.
For me, the issue with a battery-powered remote is…worrying about yet another battery, especially in cold weather. Plus BT is a little flakey.
Are you talking about inputs like this? This is from Strelok.
See, I own a non-ballistic Kestrel, a 3500, so I don’t know what a Kestrel temp table is exactly.
Okay you can’t knock the Bluetooth on an accessory with redundant buttons while having a unit that is completely dependent on Bluetooth connections as the better alternative.
Yes - those kind of temp tables.They tend to bell curve but somewhere between .7-1.0 is common from my experience per degree per fps. Meaning your summer shot at 90 degrees will be roughly 40-50 fps lower at 30 degrees. And that’s with “temp stable” h4350
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