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Is this normal for a custom action?

R

randello88

Private
Minuteman
Sep 5, 2020
58
16
#1
In a few words: with those tight tolerances, there is a certain way i have to push the bolt forward, otherwise i get some resistance to the point that the bolt gets almost stuck. If I push in a certain way, the cycling is fine and pretty smooth.
With the few bolt actions i used during the years (cz 527 and bergaras b14s) the bolt was much sloppier but almost in any way you run the bolt, it worked.

The bolt is clean and the action is clean, too. What i am gonna describe happens with and without lube.
The action is a defiance deviant ga hunter and the finish is the original black one that defiance applies on the bolt and on the action itself. It is mounted via the proprietary manners mini chassis on a manners stock. It uses aics mags. I asked for the standard tolerances that defiance applies, i didn't ask for the increased clearance bolt.

The action runs pretty smooth with and without the magazine inserted qhen there are no rounds in it. It just gets stuck when not pushing in a straight forward way, especially when applying leverage on the bolt, resulting in force being put more towards the side of the bolt.
When pushing straight or, better, applying some force towards the non bolt side, it runs smoothly.
With live cartidges it is more or less the same but the cycling is smooth only if i push in a certain way, there is less margin of error when chambering a round. If i don't push in the correct way, the bolt gets a lot of resistance. If i push strongly it works anyway, if I push slowly but applying the force in a correct, more centered or towards the opposite side of the bolt, again, it works.

Is this normal for a new custom action? Maybe i am just used to sloppy factory bolts which gives more margin in the cycling process.
 
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#2
In my experience, Defiance’s tight tolerances tend to allow the action to bind if the pressure is not close to center, and more so on the raw stainless vs the nitride or DLC coated action. I’ve got a Tenacity that binds horribly if I’m running the bolt out on the knob. Even on extraction, my fingers need to be at the base of the handle to make it run smoothly. My problem with that is, now I’m catching my fingernails on the optic when working the bolt quickly in matches.
I took this action back to the builder, thinking there was a problem. They let me cycle a couple other new Defiance actions, and it was much the same…although less with a nitrided action.
I just sent another Tenacity off for DLC coating. Hopefully that helps.
 
#3
sierra2 said:
In my experience, Defiance’s tight tolerances tend to allow the action to bind if the pressure is not close to center, and more so on the raw stainless vs the nitride or DLC coated action. I’ve got a Tenacity that binds horribly if I’m running the bolt out on the knob. Even on extraction, my fingers need to be at the base of the handle to make it run smoothly. My problem with that is, now I’m catching my fingernails on the optic when working the bolt quickly in matches.
I took this action back to the builder, thinking there was a problem. They let me cycle a couple other new Defiance actions, and it was much the same…although less with a nitrided action.
I just sent another Tenacity off for DLC coating. Hopefully that helps.
Click to expand...
As i thought, probably it binds because of the small gap between the bolt and the action. I have always heard that defiance actions run very smoothly but no one talks about this phenomenon. It is smooth actually but only if you push in a certain way, there is less margin of error when running the bolt with live rounds. This is no a huge deal but something to get used to and made me wonder if there was a problem in how the rifle was assembled.

Yesterday i was at home, in safe conditions, and tried to cycle a few dozens of rounds and after a while i understood how to use this bolt. This also proved me that the rifle cycles very reliably. This is something that i had never experienced, usually i just push the bolt knob forward and that was it.
 
#4
This was my first custom action as well. I’m used to Remingtons and Howas.
I’ve started running this action with bolt body wiped down with a quality lube. It’s not dripping wet, but it’s got a sheen to it, and it definitely helps! Many will caution against it and tell you it attracts dirt and causes more problems. I’ve run it this way for one day and two day matches with no such issues, and it keeps me from pulling my hair out with frustration. On two day matches, I wipe everything down after day 1 and reapply for day 2.
That being said, I’ve not shot a match in a place like Oklahoma where they have that really fine powdery dirt, aka “moon dust”, that gets on everything. I might have to rethink my strategy if I was going to an OK match. 😂
 
#5
sierra2 said:
This was my first custom action as well. I’m used to Remingtons and Howas.
I’ve started running this action with bolt body wiped down with a quality lube. It’s not dripping wet, but it’s got a sheen to it, and it definitely helps! Many will caution against it and tell you it attracts dirt and causes more problems. I’ve run it this way for one day and two day matches with no such issues, and it keeps me from pulling my hair out with frustration. On two day matches, I wipe everything down after day 1 and reapply for day 2.
That being said, I’ve not shot a match in a place like Oklahoma where they have that really fine powdery dirt, aka “moon dust”, that gets on everything. I might have to rethink my strategy if I was going to an OK match. 😂
Click to expand...
So you experienced this also with the other actions they made you try at defiance? When i see videos on youtube defiance actions run oretty smoothly
 
#8
I have. Tighter tolerances in the custom actions seem to be prone to binding. I found out the hard way that applying grease to the bolt only makes the matter worse. Light oil on the bolt body along with the dabs of grease have greatly reduced binding. Another tip is to apply Kroil to the bolt body and then wipe it dry.
 
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#9
Update, my gunsmith told me that it has to be expected when the rifle is new and with use this phenomenon should fade away. He also suggested me to cycle the action with live rounds in safe conditions to smoothen things out because if you cycle the bolt without ammo the movement of the bolt itself is different and the smoothening process is less efficient.

I guess my scope won't like being hit by multiple live rounds ejecting but it is life lol
 
#10
Coming from barreling everything from old mauser's to custom actions the one thing I can tell you is typically when you have those extended style bolt handles or even just enlarged ones you can change the leverage and how pressure is applied to your bolt when cycling. On top of that depending what style fluting you have in the bolt it can sometimes catch on magazine feed lips or the rim/belt of the cases in the magazine and also not make it feel as smooth.

I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with yours but I'd find some folks around you who may have them and ask them to compare, I haven't see it from them before, but I've probably only barreled around 100ish Defiance, mistakes can happen.

What I have found that works for me and how I manipulate the action is put most of my force and pressure on just below the knob on the handle. EX: round is fired, I extend my firing fingers forward, swipe them up the side of my stock/chassis, upon my trigger finger hitting the handle (typically just below where the knob is) curl that finger back when bolt reaches top of extraction cam, run rearward, once I hit the bolt stop, hand moves forward thumb takes over where trigger finger was (just below the knob on the bolt typically) push straight forward, ride cam to close, slide thumb down the handle to fully close, and assume firing grip.
 
#11
randello88 said:
Update, my gunsmith told me that it has to be expected when the rifle is new and with use this phenomenon should fade away. He also suggested me to cycle the action with live rounds in safe conditions to smoothen things out because if you cycle the bolt without ammo the movement of the bolt itself is different and the smoothening process is less efficient.

I guess my scope won't like being hit by multiple live rounds ejecting but it is life lol
Click to expand...
All my bolt rifles (Defiance, Terminus, Vudoo, Rim-X, CZ, now-departed Stiller) will bind if force is applied way off-axis to the bolt. But, in dozens and dozens of matches, I have never had an issue with binding - I don't think about it; maybe muscle memory has just evolved to where I naturally run the bolt with an on-axis push.

Regarding ejected live rounds hitting your scope: I actually had stoppage problems with my then-new-to-me Stiller related to ejection. Frequently, fired cases appeared to be failing to eject at all. Weird. I called Stiller, got a live and knowledgeable person on the phone immediately. Short version: per his advice, I used my phone to record a slow motion video of ejection cycles. The fired case was hitting the windage knob every time, and occasionally the fired case bounced right back into the breech. I didn't have room to move the turret forward, so I replaced the 1.1" rings with 1.26" rings. Never had another problem.
 
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#12
I agree with everything posted so far.
Tight tolerances can cause binding in some situations, might be able to mitigate it a bit if you adjust how you run the bolt slightly.
Lube will help the situation but can also be detrimental in dusty conditions.
It will wear in over time.

I run my bolt basically identical to what @benson821 described. I never really have a grip on the bolt handle its jut pressure in the required direction. seems to work on every rifle I've ever run
 
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#13
randello88 said:
So you experienced this also with the other actions they made you try at defiance? When i see videos on youtube defiance actions run oretty smoothly
Click to expand...
They ARE smooth when all forces are centered. I can tip my rifle up and down and the bolt just glides into place! It’s really more about technique than the action.
This was at G.A. Precision, not at Defiance, but yes. I was debating on having them send it in for nitride. “Ash” brought out a raw stainless action and a nitrided action, and showed me it was typical with both in the manner I was running the bolt. The nitrided action to a lesser extent, but still “grabby”. I only have the issue on extraction, not feeding. The way I go forward with the bolt doesn’t seem to cause any binding.
I don’t grip the bolt, but typically my index, middle, and ring fingers are kind of “flipping” the bolt upward and then rearward, out near the knob. He suggested sliding my fingers down near the base of the bolt handle for the rearward stroke. That solves the binding issue, but with the 90 deg. bolt throw and my Bushnell XRS II, in a Warne Skyline med. height mount, there’s very little clearance between the scope and bolt handle. I really have to slow down to not rip off fingernails that are catching on the scope with this technique.
I’m going to try a taller mount on the other Tenacity action, once I get it back from DLC, and see if that gives me a little more clearance to work the bolt. I want my technique to be consistent with both rifles. I also like the other poster’s idea of a little light grease inside the rear ring of the action, versus having the entire bolt lubed. I’ll try that!
 
Last edited:
#14
So its only on extraction? Not cartridge insertion? Wow. I have a Deviant that was nitrided by Altus and it runs very smoothly. Now, I have 1,700 rounds on the action but I don't remember any objectionable function when it was new.

Now, I also have a Seekins HAVAK action that that puppy def needed some rounds down it to smooth out but its lovely now.

Best of luck.
 
#15
benson821 said:
Coming from barreling everything from old mauser's to custom actions the one thing I can tell you is typically when you have those extended style bolt handles or even just enlarged ones you can change the leverage and how pressure is applied to your bolt when cycling. On top of that depending what style fluting you have in the bolt it can sometimes catch on magazine feed lips or the rim/belt of the cases in the magazine and also not make it feel as smooth.

I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with yours but I'd find some folks around you who may have them and ask them to compare, I haven't see it from them before, but I've probably only barreled around 100ish Defiance, mistakes can happen.

What I have found that works for me and how I manipulate the action is put most of my force and pressure on just below the knob on the handle. EX: round is fired, I extend my firing fingers forward, swipe them up the side of my stock/chassis, upon my trigger finger hitting the handle (typically just below where the knob is) curl that finger back when bolt reaches top of extraction cam, run rearward, once I hit the bolt stop, hand moves forward thumb takes over where trigger finger was (just below the knob on the bolt typically) push straight forward, ride cam to close, slide thumb down the handle to fully close, and assume firing grip.
Click to expand...
So everything sounds normal reading what you said. That's good news. Thank you so much!
 
#16
DownhillFromHere said:
All my bolt rifles (Defiance, Terminus, Vudoo, Rim-X, CZ, now-departed Stiller) will bind if force is applied way off-axis to the bolt. But, in dozens and dozens of matches, I have never had an issue with binding - I don't think about it; maybe muscle memory has just evolved to where I naturally run the bolt with an on-axis push.

Regarding ejected live rounds hitting your scope: I actually had stoppage problems with my then-new-to-me Stiller related to ejection. Frequently, fired cases appeared to be failing to eject at all. Weird. I called Stiller, got a live and knowledgeable person on the phone immediately. Short version: per his advice, I used my phone to record a slow motion video of ejection cycles. The fired case was hitting the windage knob every time, and occasionally the fired case bounced right back into the breech. I didn't have room to move the turret forward, so I replaced the 1.1" rings with 1.26" rings. Never had another problem.
Click to expand...
I don't think there is a problem in extraction with my rifle, spent cases go exactly where they should! But this is indeed a good tip! Thanks
 
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#17
I have two Kelbly Atlas tactical actions with fairly long bolt handles that run smooth regardless of being dry or lubed or how the bolt is run.
They were pretty much that way right out of the box.
The issue you describe I have primarily heard with Defiance actions that had been cerakoted and weren't built initially with adequate tolerances for the application.
 
#19
jmw said:
I would cycle the bolt a lot to smooth it up and practice your technique. I have impacts, lone peaks, 2 different arc actions,
my dlc’d defiance deviant is the smoothest of them all
Click to expand...
Yeah my smith told me that binding will decrease significantly with use.. i will see, in the meantime i am running a few mags with loaded ammo in safe conditions everyday. I can already see some improvement and my technique made cycling much better

Thanks guys
 
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#20
I remember watching people with stainless Defiance actions fighting them at matches back when they were in their heyday. Before Impacts, AIs being common, and other minor brands like Zermatt and ARC. When Surgeon was just starting it's decline. I used the think those actions were real hot shit and was going to get one so I started paying attention to people shooting them at matches. The stainless, highly polished actions would completely gum to a halt with the combination of bolt grease and dust. I have one image in my mind of guy slamming the bolt knob with his palm trying to drive the bolt closed and it was completely seized. Around the same time Steel Safari put out that video of people's bolt action rifles failing during their course of fire, touting AI rifles as infallible. I'm pretty sure those Defiance gave custom actions the negative reputation that they're still fighting today
 
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#21
Somewhat common on new actions that haven't worn in yet.

I usually end up messing with it cycling the bolt a million times to smooth it out. Find the angle and pressure where it feels like the bolt wants to bind and run it back and forth through that section a bunch to wear down any sharp edges that might be grabbing between the bolt body and receiver. It usually doesn't start to get really smooth until I've shot a bunch of dusty matches and worn the action down a bit, natural abrasive I guess lol.

Defiance tight tolerances and getting jammed up in the dust is a real thing, I had that happen in the past to me, but I think it's different than off-axis bolt binding when the action is clean.
 
#22
Sheldon N said:
I usually end up messing with it cycling the bolt a million times to smooth it out. Find the angle and pressure where it feels like the bolt wants to bind and run it back and forth through that section a bunch to wear down any sharp edges that might be grabbing between the bolt body and receiver.
Click to expand...
Do you do this with or without lubricant?
 
#23
NateVA said:
Do you do this with or without lubricant?
Click to expand...

It probably was clean with a very light coat of grease that had been wiped off.

Not really a super intentional process. Just sort of cycling the gun and noticing a sticky spot then getting angry there was a sticky spot and going all ham fisted on the action trying to abuse the life out of it until there wasn't a sticky spot anymore.

Being patient and just shooting matches has been the better option, the gun wears in on its own.
 
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#24
Huh. Interesting about defiance actions. Didn’t know any of this.

You know, how people describe the spendy mechanical things they buy is a study in psychology. With AI, all I read about before buying one is how smooth the action was, and of course the whole “closes like a bank vault” thing.

So I get one and yeah, both those things are true. Closes super-solid. Glides back and forth like butter.

But it’s just that they left out the whole “shifting a ‘79 CJ7 into 4-lo” vibe when actually opening and closing the bolt lol. Downright agricultural!

I love it though.

When you spend enough money on the thing, you typically don’t fault the thing in public.
 
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#27
carbonbased said:
OT: I want a mechanical engineer to explain to me specifically how tf Tikka can make their action glide like it does. Like, what is going on in there?

All this while they make a million of them.

Ok, sorry, back to Defiance.
Click to expand...
When I asked the Defiance guy on here why anyone would pay $1600 for an Anti now that MackBros.makes the Element for $900 his answer was an analogy about Japanese craftsmen that make intricate wooden puzzle boxes. And the whole time I'm reading his reply I'm thinking about how good my Tikka T3 cycles.
 
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#30
NateVA said:
Also their resistance to binding is insane
Click to expand...
Exactly. I guess I didn’t call that out, but I should have. The gliding on air thing, to me, also means it doesn’t bind if pushed off-center. But I see how it’s not axiomatic.

Your additional explanation better crystallizes the description of how they feel, totally!
 
#32
JR1200W3 said:
When I asked the Defiance guy on here why anyone would pay $1600 for an Anti now that MackBros.makes the Element for $900 his answer was an analogy about Japanese craftsmen that make intricate wooden puzzle boxes. And the whole time I'm reading his reply I'm thinking about how good my Tikka T3 cycles.
Click to expand...
Honestly starting off with a Tikka spoiled me. I'd try out other folks custom actions and just was never impressed. Especially after waxing poetic about the custom and how smooth it was!

Eventually I did get one just cause I thought it was cool but functionally the Tikka is hard to beat.
 
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#33
JR1200W3 said:
Nordic people with their logic, stoicism, fish suppe, and sociatal trauma handed down through the generations from the Russians invasion made for just the right mixture to engineer a common man's rifle that just works maybe.
Click to expand...
I want one of those “How It’s Made” shows that delves into the wee details on how they do it.

How they do it at scale is interesting too, but I just want to know: HOW? Radiusing the flow through suction head sex bolt by 30%?

A sex bolt is an actual screw nut thing btw. I relearned something new that I had already forgotten. My brain is a sieve.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Sex bolt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
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#34
carbonbased said:
I want one of those “How It’s Made” shows that delves into the wee details on how they do it.

How they do it at scale is interesting too, but I just want to know: HOW? Radiusing the flow through suction head sex bolt by 30%?

A sex bolt is an actual screw nut thing btw. I relearned something new that I had already forgotten. My brain is a sieve.
en.m.wikipedia.org

Sex bolt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
Everything starts with a good design and the proper tolerances.
Then you need the machinery to perform the tasks demanded of them and machine operators who really take pride in their work.

It’s like a chain. If one person doesn’t give a crap about what they’re doing the whole thing falls apart.
 
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#36
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