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Feedback Request - Proposed Order of Operations

Southpaw357

Southpaw357

Owner/Operator of Jack Wolf Knives
Full Member
Minuteman
Supporter
Oct 31, 2010
244
10
44
Phoenix, AZ
www.jackwolfknives.com
#1
Hello,

I shoot recreationally in Phoenix, AZ, mostly at Ben Avery and Cowtown, from 100 to 1000 yards. I do not compete at this time.

I would like to know if you see any fatal flaws or bad logic in my proposed order of operations for 6.5 Creed bolt gun ammo.

My priorities:

*Complete the work fast

*Minimize single step procedures (i.e. weighing and dropping individual charges, applying wax to cases individually, annealing cases individually, etc).

*Obtain better performance than Hornady match ammo

*Process 200-300 cases at a time

Order of Operations:

Step 1 - Collect Fired Brass

Step 2 - Anneal Necks in Giraud Annealer

Step 3 - Spray lube with one shot or similar

Step 4 - De-prime on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 1 - Lee universal decapping die

Step 5 - FL Resize body on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 2 - Forster FL Resize die with decapping stem removed

Step 6 - Expand Necks on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 3 - Pin Gauge Die TBD

Step 7 - Tumble to remove lube

Step 8 - Trim / Chamfer / Deburr on Giraud Trimmer

Step 9 - Prime case on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 1

Step 10 - Drop powder (Staball 6.5) on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 2

Step 11 - Seat bullet on Dillon 550 Toolhead 3, Station 3


Thanks for any feedback you can provide!
 
#3
John Glidewell said:
steps 4 and 5 can be at same time. If you are trying to really reduce duplicate processes. I do a very similar process and size de-prime in same step.
Click to expand...
Thanks John for your feedback. I figured I’m pulling the handle on the Dillon either way as the cases go around the wheel, so does it really change anything if the cases interact with one die or two as they go round? I was thinking maybe it’s better for the FL sizing operation to not have to worry about it’s decapping stem hitting its mark. But maybe I’m missing something, so thanks for sharing your thoughts!
 
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#4
I use a similar process to what you're describing on a 1990s-vintage RL550.

Since you're using a 550, you're adding only a few seconds by separating deprime and resize steps. If you have not purchased the Lee decapping die yet, don't. It's not worth it.

You'll find that, if the decapping stem in the resize die doesn't pop the primer all the way out, you'll know - the primer anvil sticks on the stem and pulls the spent primer partway back into the pocket on the upstroke, and the shell plate won't turn.
-----
The one suggestion I would make is to reprime with a hand primer. For some reason I've never unraveled, I can't get primers to seat in bottleneck calibers as precisely as I want them to. I use a the Franklin Arsenal (FA) tool; this link to Amazon gets the "Platinum series" set with a full set of shell holders. A buddy of mine let me try his hand primer... I forget the name of it; it's supposed to be the best or among the best. It felt more precise in its operation, but it cost about double the price of the FA tool and each additional shell holder is purchased (expensively) extra.
-----
Enjoy learning to handload. For me, it's just a chore like laundry or swabbing toilets... I've been reloading/handloading shotshell/pistol/rifle ammo well over 50 years. Biggest aggravation with rifle is brass prep - just so bleeping time consuming. Shotshell reloading is easiest. Pistol, with carbide resize die (no lube needed) behind that. Just part of the landscape.
 
#5
Southpaw357 said:
Hello,

I shoot recreationally in Phoenix, AZ, mostly at Ben Avery and Cowtown, from 100 to 1000 yards. I do not compete at this time.

I would like to know if you see any fatal flaws or bad logic in my proposed order of operations for 6.5 Creed bolt gun ammo.

My priorities:

*Complete the work fast

*Minimize single step procedures (i.e. weighing and dropping individual charges, applying wax to cases individually, annealing cases individually, etc).

*Obtain better performance than Hornady match ammo

*Process 200-300 cases at a time

Order of Operations:

Step 1 - Collect Fired Brass

Step 2 - Anneal Necks in Giraud Annealer

Step 3 - Spray lube with one shot or similar

Step 4 - De-prime on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 1 - Lee universal decapping die

Step 5 - FL Resize body on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 2 - Forster FL Resize die with decapping stem removed

Step 6 - Expand Necks on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 3 - Pin Gauge Die TBD

Step 7 - Tumble to remove lube

Step 8 - Trim / Chamfer / Deburr on Giraud Trimmer

Step 9 - Prime case on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 1

Step 10 - Drop powder (Staball 6.5) on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 2

Step 11 - Seat bullet on Dillon 550 Toolhead 3, Station 3


Thanks for any feedback you can provide!
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say there's anything like "fatal flaws" at all . . . especially since you didn't really say just how much precision you're after in you shooting. Even if you're not competing (I don't either), it's kinda important to know, even though you're just after the most efficient process for your shooting goals.

The one major thing that stands out for me is where you're dropping powder instead of weight each charge with very consistent scale. This is, in my experience, the one main area where one can produce better performing ammo than factory ammo and not having to do anything more that's often done for precision reloading. I say this because on more than one occasion I've taken factory match ammo apart and uniformed the factory powder charge weight, then reassembled the cases with the factory components. When I fired the one's I pulled apart and compared them to those that were left as factory loads, my uniforming the powder produced much much better results.

I know some reloaders that compete at a high level will drop their powder using a high end powder measure (like Harrell's Precision Powder Measure), which is good enough for them, but still not as good as using a high end scale like the FX-120i.

You just have to decide and be specific as to what's "good enough". ;)
 
#8
straightshooter1 said:
How about SD's and ES . . . which can be pretty important when shooting at distances like 1,000 yds???
Click to expand...
Not if you ask guys who actually compete at those ranges. Many of the guys at the top will tell you that those numbers don't matter. Where bullets land matter, and you can have a load with spectacular es and SD and it prints like trash, and the inverse as well.
 
#9
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
Not if you ask guys who actually compete at those ranges. Many of the guys at the top will tell you that those numbers don't matter. Where bullets land matter, and you can have a load with spectacular es and SD and it prints like trash, and the inverse as well.
Click to expand...
Hmmm??? Yes, where the bullets land matters. If you have poor consistency in velocity (which is what SD's measure) and you have poor vertical ES's, it's going to be tough to get the bullets to land where you expect them to.
 
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#10
straightshooter1 said:
Hmmm??? Yes, where the bullets land matters. If you have poor consistency in velocity (which is what SD's measure) and you have poor vertical ES's, it's going to be tough to get the bullets to land where you expect them to.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you understand the theory, now go listen to hall of fame benchrest and F-class shooter Speedy Gonzalez tell you why they don't matter over on YouTube. He's done plenty of explaining on Erik Cortina's podcast.
 
#11
Southpaw357 said:
Hello,

I shoot recreationally in Phoenix, AZ, mostly at Ben Avery and Cowtown, from 100 to 1000 yards. I do not compete at this time.

I would like to know if you see any fatal flaws or bad logic in my proposed order of operations for 6.5 Creed bolt gun ammo.

My priorities:

*Complete the work fast

*Minimize single step procedures (i.e. weighing and dropping individual charges, applying wax to cases individually, annealing cases individually, etc).

*Obtain better performance than Hornady match ammo

*Process 200-300 cases at a time

Order of Operations:

Step 1 - Collect Fired Brass

Step 2 - Anneal Necks in Giraud Annealer

Step 3 - Spray lube with one shot or similar

Step 4 - De-prime on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 1 - Lee universal decapping die

Step 5 - FL Resize body on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 2 - Forster FL Resize die with decapping stem removed

Step 6 - Expand Necks on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 3 - Pin Gauge Die TBD

Step 7 - Tumble to remove lube

Step 8 - Trim / Chamfer / Deburr on Giraud Trimmer

Step 9 - Prime case on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 1

Step 10 - Drop powder (Staball 6.5) on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 2

Step 11 - Seat bullet on Dillon 550 Toolhead 3, Station 3


Thanks for any feedback you can provide!
Click to expand...
You can deprime and resize in one step. You can also mandrel your neck in the same step with the SAC die designed to complete all three operations in one step. If the 550 is a true progressive so all you’re doing is putting a case in and then swinging the handle, I suppose none of that matters. If you were having to advance the tool head, you might as well do it in one step.

Spray lubes generally suck. Take a tiny dab of imperial sizing die wax and smear it on the inside of a gallon ziplock. Toss 100 cases in. Work the bag in your hands for a bit. The motion and warmth with coat the cases. Imperial die wax is the gold standard. It doesn’t take very much at all. Less than an eighth of a teaspoon will do 100 cases easily.

I prime my cases using a hand primer because I like to feel the primer going into the pocket. Likewise, I seat using an arbor press for the same reasons. The moving mass of the arbor press is so much less that you can feel hard seating versus easy seating versus average seating. Opinions vary, but there’s a school of thought that says you absolutely need to be lubricating the inside of your cases before seating bullets. So you might consider adding some kind of dry lubrication step after trimming and before priming. I’ve never done it and I don’t think it’s important, but there are people who are very committed to it. When it comes to powder, if precision ammo is what you’re making you really should be weighing every charge. “Throwing” charges Using a volumetric system will not be as precise.

Using that process, strive to make ammo that chronographs SDs of 10 or less for 20+ round sets. Your ES will be roughly 5x your SD if your sample size is large enough to normalize the distribution. That should be slightly better than Hornady.
 
#13
DownhillFromHere said:
I use a similar process to what you're describing on a 1990s-vintage RL550.

Since you're using a 550, you're adding only a few seconds by separating deprime and resize steps. If you have not purchased the Lee decapping die yet, don't. It's not worth it.

You'll find that, if the decapping stem in the resize die doesn't pop the primer all the way out, you'll know - the primer anvil sticks on the stem and pulls the spent primer partway back into the pocket on the upstroke, and the shell plate won't turn.
-----
The one suggestion I would make is to reprime with a hand primer. For some reason I've never unraveled, I can't get primers to seat in bottleneck calibers as precisely as I want them to. I use a the Franklin Arsenal (FA) tool; this link to Amazon gets the "Platinum series" set with a full set of shell holders. A buddy of mine let me try his hand primer... I forget the name of it; it's supposed to be the best or among the best. It felt more precise in its operation, but it cost about double the price of the FA tool and each additional shell holder is purchased (expensively) extra.
-----
Enjoy learning to handload. For me, it's just a chore like laundry or swabbing toilets... I've been reloading/handloading shotshell/pistol/rifle ammo well over 50 years. Biggest aggravation with rifle is brass prep - just so bleeping time consuming. Shotshell reloading is easiest. Pistol, with carbide resize die (no lube needed) behind that. Just part of the landscape.
Click to expand...
Hello! Good info on the Lee Die. I have one already but have only used it in my Forester Co-Ax. I won't use it in the Dillon. As far as the hand primer, that is a big negative for me. I have primed several thousand cases with an RCBS hand primer and I have serious disdain for it. This is one of the main reasons I want a progressive, to eliminate the literal case by cases processes. But I am grateful for your suggestion. I am not new to this, as I've had a few stabs at it over the years. I always end up giving it up because of the time suck and repetitive labor. But I want to give it another go and focus on what I think will be important to me; keeping it enjoyable by reducing the labor component. Could be lying to myself but we shall see.
 
#14
straightshooter1 said:
I wouldn't say there's anything like "fatal flaws" at all . . . especially since you didn't really say just how much precision you're after in you shooting. Even if you're not competing (I don't either), it's kinda important to know, even though you're just after the most efficient process for your shooting goals.

The one major thing that stands out for me is where you're dropping powder instead of weight each charge with very consistent scale. This is, in my experience, the one main area where one can produce better performing ammo than factory ammo and not having to do anything more that's often done for precision reloading. I say this because on more than one occasion I've taken factory match ammo apart and uniformed the factory powder charge weight, then reassembled the cases with the factory components. When I fired the one's I pulled apart and compared them to those that were left as factory loads, my uniforming the powder produced much much better results.

I know some reloaders that compete at a high level will drop their powder using a high end powder measure (like Harrell's Precision Powder Measure), which is good enough for them, but still not as good as using a high end scale like the FX-120i.

You just have to decide and be specific as to what's "good enough". ;)
Click to expand...
I have been chronographing my factory Hornady 147 gr loads out of a 24" proof CF barrel over the last two months. 8 total strings of fire collected, averaging 20 rounds each string (some more, some less). Avg Velocity is 2,708, Avg SD is 13, Avg ES is 53. That data is statistically relevant. So anything that good or better will make me happy. What I can guarantee will make me unhappy is weighing every charge. I have weighed thousands of charges on RCBS Chargemasters and for me, in my life right now, with the time I have available, the juice is not worth the squeeze. If I can't crank out these rounds on a progressive and get decent results using Staball, I am going to bite the bullet and buy factory ammo. I do like the idea of using some different bullets and mastering the Dillon which is why I'm considering this. It's all about enjoying the process so I should have mentioned that this is one of my major goals as well. Enjoying and not loathing it lol.
 
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#15
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
Obtaining better performance than hornady match ammo is a tall order, especially in the case of the 6.5cm. What does that performance goal look like? How is it measured?
Click to expand...
I can answer that. As noted above, I have been chronographing my factory Hornady 147 gr loads out of a 24" proof CF barrel over the last two months. 8 total strings of fire collected, averaging 20 rounds each string (some more, some less). Avg Velocity is 2,708, Avg SD is 13, Avg ES is 53. That data is statistically relevant. So anything that good or better will make me happy. As far as accuracy, I am happy as a pig in slop if I can get 20 consecutive shots inside of an inch.
 
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#16
OREGUN said:
You can deprime and resize in one step. You can also mandrel your neck in the same step with the SAC die designed to complete all three operations in one step. If the 550 is a true progressive so all you’re doing is putting a case in and then swinging the handle, I suppose none of that matters. If you were having to advance the tool head, you might as well do it in one step.

Spray lubes generally suck. Take a tiny dab of imperial sizing die wax and smear it on the inside of a gallon ziplock. Toss 100 cases in. Work the bag in your hands for a bit. The motion and warmth with coat the cases. Imperial die wax is the gold standard. It doesn’t take very much at all. Less than an eighth of a teaspoon will do 100 cases easily.

I prime my cases using a hand primer because I like to feel the primer going into the pocket. Likewise, I seat using an arbor press for the same reasons. The moving mass of the arbor press is so much less that you can feel hard seating versus easy seating versus average seating. Opinions vary, but there’s a school of thought that says you absolutely need to be lubricating the inside of your cases before seating bullets. So you might consider adding some kind of dry lubrication step after trimming and before priming. I’ve never done it and I don’t think it’s important, but there are people who are very committed to it. When it comes to powder, if precision ammo is what you’re making you really should be weighing every charge. “Throwing” charges Using a volumetric system will not be as precise.

Using that process, strive to make ammo that chronographs SDs of 10 or less for 20+ round sets. Your ES will be roughly 5x your SD if your sample size is large enough to normalize the distribution. That should be slightly better than Hornady.
Click to expand...
The dillon is a true progressive, so no advancing the tool head. I will check out the SAC die though, sounds interesting. As far as lube, I have had good results with liberal applications of one shot with cases in a loading tray and spraying at 45 degree angle from each side of the tray. But it's a damn mess and I used to wet tumble them to clean them. I used imperial a LOT before I switched to the one shot. Man did I get sick and tired of constantly waxing my fingers and stroking cases. That is why I went to the spray and never looked back. But I never considered your imperial wax in the bag idea, I will give that a go.

As far as hand priming, weighing every charge, seating on a separate press, lubing necks, wet tumbling, I've done that for thousands of rounds in the past. And I know myself; I'm just not going to want to spend that kind of time as it gets too laborious for me vs. buying factory ammo. And because I won't enjoy it.

The only way i am going to try reloading again as opposed to buying more factory ammo is if I can do it fast on the progressive. Will I get the results? I'm willing to find out! If I can beat average SD's of 13 and average ES's of 53 (statistically relevant measurements from my factory ammo over the last 2 months) then I'm winning. Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.
 
#20
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
Sounds like you understand the theory, now go listen to hall of fame benchrest and F-class shooter Speedy Gonzalez tell you why they don't matter over on YouTube. He's done plenty of explaining on Erik Cortina's podcast.
Click to expand...

you are missing the point entirely !

OFF COURSE YOU GOTTA HAVE LOW ES/ES !!

but you didntlisten to whole thing and you missed the context: those mens HAVE LOW ES/SD. they dont have 50 ES ! big difference!
listen to alex wheller podcast and listen what is he talking about 1000y BR: a lot of people who have CRAZY SMALL ES/SD have bigger groups than normal. this is the point! CRAZY SMALL. but you gotta have small ES/SD, not big ! big difference !
but if they have ES of 100, this is also very bad.
 
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#21
Southpaw357 said:
Hello,

I shoot recreationally in Phoenix, AZ, mostly at Ben Avery and Cowtown, from 100 to 1000 yards. I do not compete at this time.

I would like to know if you see any fatal flaws or bad logic in my proposed order of operations for 6.5 Creed bolt gun ammo.

My priorities:

*Complete the work fast

*Minimize single step procedures (i.e. weighing and dropping individual charges, applying wax to cases individually, annealing cases individually, etc).

*Obtain better performance than Hornady match ammo

*Process 200-300 cases at a time

Order of Operations:

Step 1 - Collect Fired Brass

Step 2 - Anneal Necks in Giraud Annealer

Step 3 - Spray lube with one shot or similar

Step 4 - De-prime on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 1 - Lee universal decapping die

Step 5 - FL Resize body on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 2 - Forster FL Resize die with decapping stem removed

Step 6 - Expand Necks on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 3 - Pin Gauge Die TBD

Step 7 - Tumble to remove lube

Step 8 - Trim / Chamfer / Deburr on Giraud Trimmer

Step 9 - Prime case on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 1

Step 10 - Drop powder (Staball 6.5) on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 2

Step 11 - Seat bullet on Dillon 550 Toolhead 3, Station 3


Thanks for any feedback you can provide!
Click to expand...

combine step 4 - 5 - 6 in one step.

no benefit from expanding necks in seperate step with manderel, when you use ordinary FL die, and drop Staball powder.

dont use bench rest brass prepp, if you plink with 1MOA+ 1000$ rifle...
 
#22
You don't need to case resize and expand separately from loading.

Tumble your fired brass.

Lube it with lanolin Lube.

Load it through the dillon all in one go. Loaded rounds come out the end of the press.

If you want to, tumble loaded rounds lightly to remove lanolin Lube.


This is 5 rounds at 100m out of a Tikka 223 loaded just like described above using staball match.
The top round was the last zeroing shot for the scope, then I shot the group you see.


20241105_161626.jpg
 
#23
MarkyMark007 said:
combine step 4 - 5 - 6 in one step.

no benefit from expanding necks in seperate step with manderel, when you use ordinary FL die, and drop Staball powder.

dont use bench rest brass prepp, if you plink with 1MOA+ 1000$ rifle...
Click to expand...
Who said anything about a 1MOA+ 1000$ rifle? This is an impact action that is about to get a 28" brux heavy contoured barrel chambered by Phoenix Custom RIfles in an ACC chassis. And if I am using 2 toolheads for the process, there is no time saved on the dillon by combining body resizing and neck expansion verus having a separate body resize and neck expanion, the brass has to go all the way around the press through toolhead one either way. And I've never been a big fan of expander balls on FL dies.
 
#24
MK20 said:
You don't need to case resize and expand separately from loading.

Tumble your fired brass.

Lube it with lanolin Lube.

Load it through the dillon all in one go. Loaded rounds come out the end of the press.

If you want to, tumble loaded rounds lightly to remove lanolin Lube.


This is 5 rounds at 100m out of a Tikka 223 loaded just like described above using staball match.
The top round was the last zeroing shot for the scope, then I shot the group you see.
Click to expand...
This would certainly be faster, one toolhead instead of two and less steps. But my questions are: what about the trim / chamfer / deburr step? I already own the GIraud, but this approach would not allow me to use it. Second is tumbling fired case, is that safe? Seems like the sage advice of "just because you can doesn't mean you should" applies here. I would be concerned about a bullet tip igniting a primer in the tumbler. At the Scottsdale Gun Club about 12 years ago, I was shooting 9mm. An empty shell casing ejected from the handgun and landed on top of an opened box of ammo I had on the counter in front of me that had the cartridges oriented primers-up. I shit you not, it landed on a primer and ignited it. Big flash, but no bullet shot out. Scared the crap out of me!
 
#25
ES and SD make a huge difference at 600 and beyond. 1-200 not really. The last two boxes of factory Hornady 140 ELD match that I ran through my AI barrel had an ES of 70 something one box, and over 60 the other. It shot fine at 100, but that is over a MOA of just vertical dispersion past 700.

OP, I know you don't want to weigh charges, but it might not hurt to check the accuracy and consistency of your setup. A lot of guys are having good experiences with stuff like the A&D FX-120i and AutoTrickler.
 
#26
Southpaw357 said:
This would certainly be faster, one toolhead instead of two and less steps. But my questions are: what about the trim / chamfer / deburr step? I already own the GIraud, but this approach would not allow me to use it. Second is tumbling fired case, is that safe? Seems like the sage advice of "just because you can doesn't mean you should" applies here. I would be concerned about a bullet tip igniting a primer in the tumbler. At the Scottsdale Gun Club about 12 years ago, I was shooting 9mm. An empty shell casing ejected from the handgun and landed on top of an opened box of ammo I had on the counter in front of me that had the cartridges oriented primers-up. I shit you not, it landed on a primer and ignited it. Big flash, but no bullet shot out. Scared the crap out of me!
Click to expand...

It set your primer off probably based off of residual heat, and not impact. It takes quite a bit to set a primer off. I have tumbled ammo quite a bit with no issues. Apparently some manufacturers do it. I trim all brass on the Giraud once when I get it and it is good for multiple firings.
 
#27
MK20 said:
It set your primer off probably based off of residual heat, and not impact. It takes quite a bit to set a primer off. I have tumbled ammo quite a bit with no issues. Apparently some manufacturers do it. I trim all brass on the Giraud once when I get it and it is good for multiple firings.
Click to expand...
Ok thats good to know. But i can assure you, that brass ejected out of the gun, bounced off the divider and landed square on the primer. Odds are it was the impact IMO, but a freak occurrence nonetheless. I am strongly considering your approach, it would be very fast indeed. Will virgin Lapua brass feed into the Giraud or does it have to be FL sized first?
 
#28
MarkyMark007 said:
you are missing the point entirely !

OFF COURSE YOU GOTTA HAVE LOW ES/ES !!

but you didntlisten to whole thing and you missed the context: those mens HAVE LOW ES/SD. they dont have 50 ES ! big difference!
listen to alex wheller podcast and listen what is he talking about 1000y BR: a lot of people who have CRAZY SMALL ES/SD have bigger groups than normal. this is the point! CRAZY SMALL. but you gotta have small ES/SD, not big ! big difference !
but if they have ES of 100, this is also very bad.
Click to expand...
You missed the point also, even though you basically stated it in your own post. If it's stacking bullets, it doesn't matter. The paper will tell you if you have a good load or not, not your chronograph. You can chase small ES/SD all you want, but it doesn't matter. Now, when you have a good load, it will likely have reasonable ES/SD, but sometimes it doesn't, and it doesn't matter.
 
#29
Southpaw357 said:
Hello,

I shoot recreationally in Phoenix, AZ, mostly at Ben Avery and Cowtown, from 100 to 1000 yards. I do not compete at this time.

I would like to know if you see any fatal flaws or bad logic in my proposed order of operations for 6.5 Creed bolt gun ammo.

My priorities:

*Complete the work fast

*Minimize single step procedures (i.e. weighing and dropping individual charges, applying wax to cases individually, annealing cases individually, etc).

*Obtain better performance than Hornady match ammo

*Process 200-300 cases at a time

Order of Operations:

Step 1 - Collect Fired Brass
Click to expand...
You may wish to clean after this step, to keep some crap out of your sizing dies. Wet or dry. If you go from wet to annealing, the annealer will cook out any residual water / solution, no need to dry beyond a quick shake.
Southpaw357 said:
Step 2 - Anneal Necks in Giraud Annealer
Click to expand...
I like the Quick Anneal, it's fast and can be easily automated if you prefer. Having said that, I prefer any electric annealer over a torch because of simplicity, consistency, and safety. Dislike open flame around loading areas.
Southpaw357 said:
Step 3 - Spray lube with one shot or similar
Click to expand...
One-shot works fine. Method:
Southpaw357 said:
Step 4 - De-prime on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 1 - Lee universal decapping die

Step 5 - FL Resize body on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 2 - Forster FL Resize die with decapping stem removed

Step 6 - Expand Necks on Dillon 550 Toolhead 1, Station 3 - Pin Gauge Die TBD
Click to expand...
As others have noted, the SAC dies combine 5&6. And support the neck while the mandrel is pulling through.
Southpaw357 said:
Step 7 - Tumble to remove lube
Click to expand...
And to clean, since you omitted that originally. Which will make your sizing dies a bit dirty as noted above.
Southpaw357 said:
Step 8 - Trim / Chamfer / Deburr on Giraud Trimmer
Click to expand...
How about doing it on-press? There's nothing faster: https://leeprecision.com/deluxe-power-quick-trim
Southpaw357 said:
Step 9 - Prime case on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 1

Step 10 - Drop powder (Staball 6.5) on Dillon 550 Toolhead 2, Station 2
Click to expand...
StaBALL is going to meter well, this may do it for you. If your ES' are causing significant vertical, you could try switching to off-press powder throwing. Still put the powder in on-press.
Southpaw357 said:
Step 11 - Seat bullet on Dillon 550 Toolhead 3, Station 3


Thanks for any feedback you can provide!
Click to expand...
The highest-stress part is sizing. I would put the sizing die in a position where it will not tend to twist the toolhead.
 
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#30
Reloading sucks. I’ve done everything I can to streamline the process while maintaining the precision that I want. I only reload because I want to shoot calibers that aren’t available in stores (I shoot ~5000 rounds of 6BRA a year). I shot hornady 6CM for a year because I was done reloading. For non-group-shooting disciplines, there’s simply no reason to reload if Hornady Match, or Berger ammo is available.

If you don’t want to tumble to remove lube, dump the brass in a box and spray liberally with acetone. Once it flashes off, the lube is gone. It’s a 5 minute operation not a 2 hour deal.

Regarding lube, it takes time to stand 300 cases up in a rack to spray them at a 45* angle from 2 directions. Every time you have to single handle each piece you are losing time with your family. That’s part of why I do the bag trick. It’s a bulk operation. Also, it’s the best way to use imperial without doing the individual finger swipe/wipe. And I’m pretty much committed to imperial having tried one shot and alcohol/lanolin.
 
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#31
biggershooter said:
You may wish to clean after this step, to keep some crap out of your sizing dies. Wet or dry. If you go from wet to annealing, the annealer will cook out any residual water / solution, no need to dry beyond a quick shake.

I like the Quick Anneal, it's fast and can be easily automated if you prefer. Having said that, I prefer any electric annealer over a torch because of simplicity, consistency, and safety. Dislike open flame around loading areas.

One-shot works fine. Method:

As others have noted, the SAC dies combine 5&6. And support the neck while the mandrel is pulling through.

And to clean, since you omitted that originally. Which will make your sizing dies a bit dirty as noted above.

How about doing it on-press? There's nothing faster: https://leeprecision.com/deluxe-power-quick-trim

StaBALL is going to meter well, this may do it for you. If your ES' are causing significant vertical, you could try switching to off-press powder throwing. Still put the powder in on-press.

The highest-stress part is sizing. I would put the sizing die in a position where it will not tend to twist the toolhead.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your feedback!
 
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#32
OREGUN said:
Reloading sucks. I’ve done everything I can to streamline the process while maintaining the precision that I want. I only reload because I want to shoot calibers that aren’t available in stores (I shoot ~5000 rounds of 6BRA a year). I shot hornady 6CM for a year because I was done reloading. For non-group-shooting disciplines, there’s simply no reason to reload if Hornady Match, or Berger ammo is available.

If you don’t want to tumble to remove lube, dump the brass in a box and spray liberally with acetone. Once it flashes off, the lube is gone. It’s a 5 minute operation not a 2 hour deal.

Regarding lube, it takes time to stand 300 cases up in a rack to spray them at a 45* angle from 2 directions. Every time you have to single handle each piece you are losing time with your family. That’s part of why I do the bag trick. It’s a bulk operation. Also, it’s the best way to use imperial without doing the individual finger swipe/wipe. And I’m pretty much committed to imperial having tried one shot and alcohol/lanolin.
Click to expand...
Man, I hear you. I came to that same conclusion about reloading sucking, on more than one occasion. First it was with 308 and then I just went to factory loaded FGMM. Second it was for 6.5 CM and then I just went to factory loaded Hornady 140/147s. I always did it on a single stage though, I am wondering if I will get some pleasure out of cranking through a progressive. And I agree with you about the reloading trays and spray lube; it's not going to happen its too slow. So I am now strongly considering the single toolhead approach suggested by @MK20 above. Anneal in Giraud, bulk lube using bag or bin, De-cap, prime and Resize body on Station 1, Expand neck on Station 2, Drop Staball Powder on Station 3, Seat Bullet on Station 4. Then, tumble loaded rounds. Does it get any faster? The new cases will have to be put through the Giraud trimmer, and then once again after a few firings, but if I start with 500 cases, that won't be all that often.
 
#33
Southpaw357 said:
Man, I hear you. I came to that same conclusion about reloading sucking, on more than one occasion. First it was with 308 and then I just went to factory loaded FGMM. Second it was for 6.5 CM and then I just went to factory loaded Hornady 140/147s. I always did it on a single stage though, I am wondering if I will get some pleasure out of cranking through a progressive. And I agree with you about the reloading trays and spray lube; it's not going to happen its too slow. So I am now strongly considering the single toolhead approach suggested by @MK20 above. Anneal in Giraud, bulk lube using bag or bin, De-cap, prime and Resize body on Station 1, Expand neck on Station 2, Drop Staball Powder on Station 3, Seat Bullet on Station 4. Then, tumble loaded rounds. Does it get any faster? The new cases will have to be put through the Giraud trimmer, and then once again after a few firings, but if I start with 500 cases, that won't be all that often.
Click to expand...

I keep an eye out for primed brass so I don't have to mess with feeding the dillon primers.

I bought a big stainless mixing bowl from my local restaurant supply store and spray lanolin Lube on cases in that then stir them around. I can lube a few hundred cases at a time and it takes 15 seconds.

I feed them into the dillon and have a size die first with decapping pin removed. I highly recommend lyman pro series carbide rifle dies for speed.

I leave the lanolin on as I spray the rounds lightly in the first place and secondly the lanolin will prevent corrosion of the cases. The few remaining stocks of .276 Pedersen all seem to shoot well and those cases were wax dipped after loading. It has kept them good for 100 years.
 
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#34
MK20 said:
I keep an eye out for primed brass so I don't have to mess with feeding the dillon primers.

I bought a big stainless mixing bowl from my local restaurant supply store and spray lanolin Lube on cases in that then stir them around. I can lube a few hundred cases at a time and it takes 15 seconds.

I feed them into the dillon and have a size die first with decapping pin removed. I highly recommend lyman pro series carbide rifle dies for speed.

I leave the lanolin on as I spray the rounds lightly in the first place and secondly the lanolin will prevent corrosion of the cases. The few remaining stocks of .276 Pedersen all seem to shoot well and those cases were wax dipped after loading. It has kept them good for 100 years.
Click to expand...
Good information, thank you. Fortunately I live in Phoenix, and it amazes me how rust free this place is! I will look at those Lyman pro series dies. I think Dillon has Carbine rifle dies too.
 
#35
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
You missed the point also, even though you basically stated it in your own post. If it's stacking bullets, it doesn't matter. The paper will tell you if you have a good load or not, not your chronograph. You can chase small ES/SD all you want, but it doesn't matter. Now, when you have a good load, it will likely have reasonable ES/SD, but sometimes it doesn't, and it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Yes, the best SD/ES's are not the deciding factor for determining the best group(s) on target. But this thread is about get better results than factory ammo with minimum reloading effort. Factory ammo all tends to be, at best, around 13 to 14 SD. If one can get their SD's into the single digits, like a 9 SD, they're gong to see smaller dispersion on their targets. . . especially at distance. "Bad" SD's will not produce good results over a statistically valid number of samples.

Loading on a progressive press is a challenge where the biggest issue is getting really consistent powder drops. IMHO Having a great tool that drops powder really well, will make the difference sought after here. I just don't know which one would do that here. 🤷‍♂️
 
#36
Southpaw357 said:
I have been chronographing my factory Hornady 147 gr loads out of a 24" proof CF barrel over the last two months. 8 total strings of fire collected, averaging 20 rounds each string (some more, some less). Avg Velocity is 2,708, Avg SD is 13, Avg ES is 53. That data is statistically relevant. So anything that good or better will make me happy. What I can guarantee will make me unhappy is weighing every charge. I have weighed thousands of charges on RCBS Chargemasters and for me, in my life right now, with the time I have available, the juice is not worth the squeeze. If I can't crank out these rounds on a progressive and get decent results using Staball, I am going to bite the bullet and buy factory ammo. I do like the idea of using some different bullets and mastering the Dillon which is why I'm considering this. It's all about enjoying the process so I should have mentioned that this is one of my major goals as well. Enjoying and not loathing it lol.
Click to expand...
I get it! :giggle:

I still feel your "most juice for the squeeze" is best served in refining the powder drop for best consistency. Using ball powder does help a lot with that. I don't use a progressive, so I'm just not aware of the tools that'll work best for this objective. If you haven't already, this is where I'd do some serious investigation. 🤷‍♂️
 
#37
straightshooter1 said:
I get it! :giggle:

I still feel your "most juice for the squeeze" is best served in refining the powder drop for best consistency. Using ball powder does help a lot with that. I don't use a progressive, so I'm just not aware of the tools that'll work best for this objective. If you haven't already, this is where I'd do some serious investigation. 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
I don't disagree that super consistent powder drops is a good thing for precision ammo. But I think a good place for me to start is with Staball powder in the Dillon powder measure and see how it goes. If push comes to shove, I could always remove the powder measure and add a funnel up there for manual drops.
 
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