Is anyone else thinking in light of the last few days events that the US better make a hasty exit from NATO? Anyone can see that Zelensky is gonna try to goad Putin into attacking one NATO country and then that will trigger a response from us. Russia has attacked a UK cargo ship carrying weapons to Ukraine so its only a matter of time this escalates which is just what that little imp Zelennsky is hoping since he is almost out of bodies to throw out there.
NATO
- Thread starter mvphilly
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russia is just sitting back with the pop corn like everyone else saying WTF these homies beezz nuts , i think some behind the scenes phone calls are going on quietly and kissy kissy make up soon .
Been saying we need to exit NATO for years, it's a Cold War relic that no longer serves a purpose except for Europe to freeload off the US for defense. NATO was designed to be a counter-balance to the USSR...when the USSR dissolved, so should have NATO.
Thats exactly what Eisenhower said during its formation.
iran/russia/china being buddies suggests we keep nato a tad longer imho
If China invaded Guam while stating they had no aggressive ambitions against the EU or the US mainland, do you honestly believe all of NATO would mobilize and invade China?
I sure as fuck don't. NATO is an empty shell and as useful as a security blanket against a tiger.
If Europe wants to pay for the majority of NATO, being that they're the most at risk, sure. Otherwise, sounds like a Europe problem.
SEATO for starters and in imho china wont go after anything US [guam] but when they go for taiwan ...its theirs we cannot /will not stop them short of ww3
western europe [nato] are speed bumps before they cross the atlantic , they know within the first 30 days nato would call for the release of nuclear weapons to halt russian tanks on the way to the english channel and russia know this too
Guam is a hypothetical, not a likelihood, but it makes my point. An attack on Guam, as a US territory, is the same as an attack on the US homeland itself. I wholly believe the majority of NATO would ignore an Article 5 claim being made by the US in that event. Some nations would mobilize, but not as a whole. This is why I say NATO is ineffective and only expect to be protected with no reciprocal actions intended or even viable.
It’s all fine guys. If anything happens we will just bust out those little UAP things and green men and all will be fine. You all worry too much. Focus at home.
Then they can repaint the tail art in AWACS.
Instead of it having NATO-OTAN, it can have FAFO/OFAF.
Oh, Fuck, Am, Fucked
Not a damn chance. They wouldn't do a damn thing.
Zelenskyy is a desperate and beaten man. He knows he will not only lose Ukraine but also relevance on the World Stage. Trump has shown him that, and it will only get worse. The US will be lambasted in the World Media, but who gives a damn. It is time for us to focus on our INTERNAL problems due to the wholesale corruption and woke policies that started with Bill Clinton.
Personally, the EU elites have to start reading the room in their countries. This is not some fad movement. The coservatives are winning, and protests are everywhere.
We are finally doing what we need to do in the US.
I hope we stay the course.
What does NATO bring to the fight besides the US combat power? Hopefully someone can list out that combat power that can sail, fly, or march out to the front not the hulks in motor pools etc.
This could all have been avouded if Obama had not been weak allowed the annexation of Crimea and then Biden being even weaker
I don't think Putin will attack a current NATO country. But should one sent troops to Ukraine then they would have been the initial aggressor and other NATO nations would not be required to come to their aid.
That was intentional. Obama was literally conceived and pampered by the Marxists within the US and Indonesia. His mom worked for USAID, and his first job after graduating Columbia was with a CIA front company called Business International Corp.
Even as a Senator, Obama went to Ukraine to disarm the actual Ukrainians of their artillery munitions, to soften them up for future Russian action.
Trump put a major delay on Putin’s plans to take Ukraine, by promoting low US energy prices, which in-turn dropped global energy prices and ruined Russia’s economic growth potential and funding of the SMO.
Trump also authorized the sale of $150 million Javelins to Ukraine on March 1, 2018, right after he had US forces in Syria annihilate a Russian Wagner-led armored battle group that attacked a small contingent of SOF personnel at the Conoco plant near Khasham, well across their red line of demarkation that had been agreed to.
Trump later authorized an ever larger sale of Javelins to Ukraine, along with a $600 million weapons package after that. You can view all of this on the US DSCA website, which publishes US Foreign Military Sales packages.
Elements within the CIA/USAID, FBI, and intelligence sector who are multigenerational betrayers to the US, helped Biden steal the 2020 election, so China and Russia could make their moves. Biden, who the Soviets helped get elected into the Senate in 1972, was one of their long-time stooges who would do whatever they asked, as all they needed to do was threaten him with expositing his pedophilia crimes. He had already suborned treason to his brother James and son Hunter, using them as intermediaries for laundering Putin’s bribe payments.
Remember how Russian oligarch Elena Baturina wired $3.5 million to Hunter’s Rosemont Seneca in Feb 2014? Now look at what date the pardon goes back to......Jan 2014.
Zelensky wants NATO intervention because he needs bodies since his are running low.Its ironic but Trumps familiarity with Putin just might be the saving grace to prevent WW3. DT can say look Vlad just make sure you are confined to Ukraine not Poland or any other NATO countries other wise we have an issue.The question is if Putin really gives 2 shits about any of it.What pisses me off is that little fucker Mike Johnson could have cut Ukraine off 2 years ago but was too busy sucking Dem dicks and making deals to save his skin.They would have been done by now.
The Europeans have finally been woken up, about 30 years too late though.
During the Cold War, they had moderate defense budgets and fragmented, national protectionist industries where instead of leveraging their collective developmental and production capacity, looked at defense programs as ways to create redundant jobs for companies in each nation that participated in multinational consortiums.
The whole reason we PCS’d there in 1980 was to participate in the development of Future Fighter 1990, which became known as the ECA, then EFA, then Eurofighter Typhoon, and now just Typhoon. If you look through the contracting awards, you’ll see the participating nations making the same subsystems in a lot of areas, rather than one country making this, and another making that. That’s more true with simple stuff like ammo drums, certain structures, and things that aren’t as advanced.
Here we are 45 years later, and the freaking Typhoon still doesn’t have an AESA Radar. Cockpit layout had too many cooks in the kitchen, so the systems are not well placed for natural man-machine interface. It’s a great aircraft, but suffered at the hands of feminists in parliaments cutting its funding, while committees of British, German, Spanish, and Italian engineers fought over how it would be designed and developed.
It’s kind of a microcosm of the whole collective European defense posture.
A fews countries did take their defense seriously since the 1990s, namely Finland, Poland, and Norway. Germany, the UK, Italy, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Denmark bought into the whole “It’s the end of history!” insanity.
The problem is, when you embrace weakness, you invite someone to attack you and make conflict more inevitable. When you maintain strength, it acts as a major deterrent to aggressors. Europe failed to do this.
While they invested restricted amounts of money in aging technology, the US had already moved onto the next thing. The ATF program was funded starting in 1981.
ASTOVL started receiving secret funding in 1983.
ATF became the F-22A. ASTOVL became the F-35B. There were 5 other programs besides ASTOVL that rolled into JSF-A and JSF-C, which are the F-35A and F-35C.
During the Cold War, they had moderate defense budgets and fragmented, national protectionist industries where instead of leveraging their collective developmental and production capacity, looked at defense programs as ways to create redundant jobs for companies in each nation that participated in multinational consortiums.
The whole reason we PCS’d there in 1980 was to participate in the development of Future Fighter 1990, which became known as the ECA, then EFA, then Eurofighter Typhoon, and now just Typhoon. If you look through the contracting awards, you’ll see the participating nations making the same subsystems in a lot of areas, rather than one country making this, and another making that. That’s more true with simple stuff like ammo drums, certain structures, and things that aren’t as advanced.
Here we are 45 years later, and the freaking Typhoon still doesn’t have an AESA Radar. Cockpit layout had too many cooks in the kitchen, so the systems are not well placed for natural man-machine interface. It’s a great aircraft, but suffered at the hands of feminists in parliaments cutting its funding, while committees of British, German, Spanish, and Italian engineers fought over how it would be designed and developed.
It’s kind of a microcosm of the whole collective European defense posture.
A fews countries did take their defense seriously since the 1990s, namely Finland, Poland, and Norway. Germany, the UK, Italy, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Denmark bought into the whole “It’s the end of history!” insanity.
The problem is, when you embrace weakness, you invite someone to attack you and make conflict more inevitable. When you maintain strength, it acts as a major deterrent to aggressors. Europe failed to do this.
While they invested restricted amounts of money in aging technology, the US had already moved onto the next thing. The ATF program was funded starting in 1981.
ASTOVL started receiving secret funding in 1983.
ATF became the F-22A. ASTOVL became the F-35B. There were 5 other programs besides ASTOVL that rolled into JSF-A and JSF-C, which are the F-35A and F-35C.
You’re buying into the liberal media’s portrayal of these affairs.
Trump is an adversary against Putin that Putin never saw coming-the only US President in history who authorized US forces to annihilate Russian forces with the full military might of air power and precision munitions, for many hours straight at the Battle of Khasham in Feb 2018.
Trump threatened Putin in a way he won’t openly discuss, but it was enough to keep Putin in-check, along with all the Javelins and weapons he sent to Ukraine. Trump genuinely didn’t want Ukraine to be invaded.
Prior Presidents had been helping prep Ukraine for invasion for decades, starting with Clinton. Clintons took hundreds of millions of dollars from Russia into the Clinton Global Initiative.
Things are not what they seem, and neither controlled information sources have reported ground truth on any of this.
so simple and obvious. i assume the MIC evolved the plan and is obviously fat and happy with the results.
NOT! do you think that if any aggressor came at us from N,S,E or west that our NATO "allies" would do jack shit to help us(or could do anything)? not no,fuck no. would just give us something else to defend with our spread thin,under equipped military.
FUCK NATO.
i think this boils down to America 1st. it's like the stupor bowel. if KC had won,would your live be better or affected in any way? if Europe gets ass raped by Russia that never crossed the Atlantic or invaded w. hemis,would your life and your country suffer some tragic outcome? of course not.
yes Putin is a corrupt brutal dictator and has fucked with our internal affairs just like his predecessors. BTW we do the same. KGB and FSB just do it better than our incompetent CIA. we should fix that like we should have decades ago. a nuclear war is not a great fix. the fact is that if we had a strong dept of DEFENSE and appropriate posture,there would be no reason and no ability for Russia to fuck with us. we could actually do biz with them under stable mutually cautious conditions.
yes Putin is a corrupt brutal dictator and has fucked with our internal affairs just like his predecessors. BTW we do the same. KGB and FSB just do it better than our incompetent CIA. we should fix that like we should have decades ago. a nuclear war is not a great fix. the fact is that if we had a strong dept of DEFENSE and appropriate posture,there would be no reason and no ability for Russia to fuck with us. we could actually do biz with them under stable mutually cautious conditions.
Britain has no tanks and no troops.
Germany has de-industrialized themselves and shut down many nuclear plants.
France is being led by an ex Roschild banker who was mkultraed by a 40 years old tranny teacher when he was 14.
This so-called coalition of the willing is a total and utter paper tiger which is why they want to stand behind American hegemony to push their influence.
US needs to pull out of NATO and 86 every single dollar of foreign military aid including to Israel.
Germany has de-industrialized themselves and shut down many nuclear plants.
France is being led by an ex Roschild banker who was mkultraed by a 40 years old tranny teacher when he was 14.
This so-called coalition of the willing is a total and utter paper tiger which is why they want to stand behind American hegemony to push their influence.
US needs to pull out of NATO and 86 every single dollar of foreign military aid including to Israel.
The Brits may have two nuke subs that work and one flattop that may work on a good day, cutting checks that will not clear.
They can’t even maintain their tridents
Trident missile test fails for second time in a row - BBC News
The UK's nuclear deterrent failed to fire a test missile reportedly landing close to the launch site.
www.bbc.com
The UK’s Trident launch failure: a cause for concern?
Following a second consecutive Trident II D-5 launch failure, questions have arisen about the reliability of the United Kingdom’s nuclear deterrent. The Trident II D-5, however, has historically been one of the world’s most reliable strategic missiles and has recorded 191 successful sea-launch...
www.iiss.org
The EU is incapable of a combined arms war, period. That said, Ukraine was utterly outmatched by Russia and here we are three years later. Russia is obviously not very capable either. Our only real adversary is China, and all our planning and energy needs to be focused on them, because if we start fighting them we are going to start running out of shit fast, and their production power dwarfs ours. Unless we can start to match their industrial capability before we start fighting we will loose. Much of what Trump is doing is to onshore production back to America. He is not stupid like most of our politicians (and the idiots who elect them). Bill Clinton started the offshoring of our capacity for easy money and cheap goods. Turns out cheap goods are incredibly expensive in the long run.
think we should con them into going into Ukraine (without 1 $ or bullet from us). give Putin his army,navy and air force something to do when Ukraine is finished up. keep him from bothering us. yea,China a big prob. we can't match their industry for decades yet. their pop is obviously bigger. hard to tell but it seems Xi has his population under control and they don't give shit about casualties-yet. the so.China sea/Taiwan is a huge challenge. we do need to subtly get friendly with India and keep in good relations with SE Asia. against China,we would,will,do need local allies.
NATO? its an empty shell that sucks United States Treasure. No one in NATO is going to jump up and help any other.
Reference. Argentina attacked and occupied the Faukland Islands. No one, not even Reagan jumped up to help Great Britain regain and defend its territory. Disputed territory yes, but obviously claimed and inhabited by British citizens. As far as world unity, we came close (as in the world, not just the US) in defending our oil supply in Kuwait. But that was about oil, not national unity or defending the weak. We, the United States, pretty much ended any chance of nations sticking together when the second bush invaded Iraq.
Our son was a military man when bush made his decision to attack Iraq. I thought it was the stupidest decision since Theodore Roosevelt, ran as a third party candidate, against his former protege and let woodrow wilson become President. (Wilson, synonymous with really bad government).
Typical of what is really going to happen. As others have stated earlier in this thread, NATO needs to go away. Let Europe defend Europe.
Reference. Argentina attacked and occupied the Faukland Islands. No one, not even Reagan jumped up to help Great Britain regain and defend its territory. Disputed territory yes, but obviously claimed and inhabited by British citizens. As far as world unity, we came close (as in the world, not just the US) in defending our oil supply in Kuwait. But that was about oil, not national unity or defending the weak. We, the United States, pretty much ended any chance of nations sticking together when the second bush invaded Iraq.
Our son was a military man when bush made his decision to attack Iraq. I thought it was the stupidest decision since Theodore Roosevelt, ran as a third party candidate, against his former protege and let woodrow wilson become President. (Wilson, synonymous with really bad government).
Typical of what is really going to happen. As others have stated earlier in this thread, NATO needs to go away. Let Europe defend Europe.
I think you can argue what they (EU/NATO), will or won't do all day long. What I know is this: Europe ran out of bombs after one week, that's ONE WEEK, of bombing Libya. So one can waggle a stern index finger all they want. What matters is resolve followed by a strong logistics chain.
I would counter that new alignment would be the very reason we should exit NATO.
If anything went kinetic over there, large chunks of our attention and resources would be blown on covering NATO fuck ups. That would be sub-optimal at a time when we (The US) would need to be efficient and with no distractions.
Add in the fact that NATO and the rest of the Victoria Nuland ass kissing West is actively trying to provoke Russia, do we really need those inept fucks among our ranks?
I honestly believe NATO is a far bigger liability than asset if things get spicy.
How many of the other NATO countries will be running to our rescue?
I was recently in an EU country with a large ethnic Russian presence. I was talking to friends about the world and events and Ukraine/Russia came up. They mentioned the threat Russia poses on their border and how they are expanding their extremely tiny military to "counter" this threat.
As an example, they have 0 tanks, and only 47 pieces of arty in their entire military.
These people kept referencing NATO like a baby clings to a pacifier. I mentioned that the US does not have the finances, manpower, equipment, or geopolitical position to help them in a major war. Because if a major war kicks off in one theater, the US adversary in the opposite theater will take advantage of it and the US will immediately be in a 2 front war, or will have to keep so many troops prepositioned for deterrence so as to defacto make the resource commitment feel as such.
I advocated universal military training or at least letting civillians own militarily useful weapons easily. They looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. I pointed out that Russia would not invade a country where every bush had some pissed off farmer with an AR and an NLAW. That would make an armored column merely a scrap metal donation.
I love these people. They are good people and they are my friends. But culturally they have absolutely no concept of armed self defense. The Soviets beat that out of them and we Americans have reinforced it.
They need to learn fast, and we need to help them by talking to them like realistic adults instead of coddling them.
Plenty of people are talking about that.
This video kind of talks on touching back at Trump first term.
This video kind of talks on touching back at Trump first term.
The founding premise of nato lasted until about 1952-3 ish when the newly formed MIC learned how to step up their profits and add to their worth via the tax payers pocket. I have no doubt that the same elements that changed the country's direction on Nov 22 1963, would hesitate to step up again if they thought for one minute their slush funds & pick pocketing of the tax payer was about to end. Ask yourself who benefited or has benefited the most from X______________________ attack/s, (no matter whose dirt it was on) or laws enacted/departments formed do to same.
A few that matter ,like the ones that share a commonality of military logistics with NATO members .....fix what is broken rather than scrap the entire force and have them devolve into every country for themselves easily picked off one by one . imho
Hahaha
It seems you have been with some tesla drivin libs , every east european country has magnitudes more idea to ''concept of armed self defense'' than any western nation including US and i mean magnitudes, if anything commies molded that in , with kids in school practicing shooting , everyone conscripted ,and all sort of shit to make cannon foder for total war. Since 2022 that got revived and turbocharged , Everyone of them has active reservist associations training thousands
But yes true what you said in regards to them being depended of Nato and US
In US you have many guns and folks with guns , but 95% have no concept beyond personal self defense which is not even remotely useful in fighting a war. If nothing else, the percentage of the population that went trough basic miltary training which is kinda low bar but still higher than just owning a glock .
Things they need to learn fast is that US and NATO might not be behind them so might need adjust their attitudes on whom and how much they might want to aggravate. Their politicians run an extremely hawkish line(Lindsey Graham is a super dove in comparison) on Russia ,China ,xyz that they can not back up with anything.
US ,NATO being the gate. And gate opening is what is now happening.
Britain has more Generals than tanks and unwavering support - Loan for Ukraine just came with 9% interest rate
But never underestimate British capacity to push US into shit they mix up ,US three leter agencies were always quite willing partner to these schemes
Male and female feminists in European Parliaments have been ignoring or neglecting defense spending for generations. Even during the Cold War, the UK parliament cut funding for the BAC TSR-2, and the other big NATO partner nations opted to just buy US F-104Gs, F-4s, F-5s, then F-16s, and now F-35s.
Some exceptions to that trend were the Harrier and Tornado. Harrier would never have seen the funding without USMC buy-in though in the long-run. Tornado was an attempt by European consortiums to maintain development and manufacturing capacity, but they would have been better off with the F-4 or F-15, powered by Rolls Royce motors and stuffed with some of their own electronics made under license.
The Euroconsortium then launched the Future Fighter 1990 program, which became ECA, then EFA, with the first EPA demonstrator flying in 1986.
US MIC didn’t envision fulfilling all of NATO defense when it comes to aerospace, but has only responded naturally when there are no other real competitors. This has actually delayed the acquisition of the planned US and prime customer force sizes, due to how much demand there is from Europe.
France has been fairly independent in their aerospace and defense manufacturing capacity, formerly cranking out Mirages by the thousands. Now they have only built over 260 Rafales, and many of those are for FMS to India, Egypt, Qatar, and UAE.
The combined French Air Force and Navy have less fighters (241) than the USMC (442). Same with UK RAF and RN. The Royal Navy had to borrow an operational USMC F-35B squadron to send the Queen Elizabeth on its first deployment.
European force structure reductions have solely been the result of terrible European parliamentarian idiots, who have no understanding of reality. They literally bought into the idea of “the end of history”.
prob gonna be an end of European society as we know it. at that point the hist will be rewritten.
It’s even worse than that for Putin. Trump just launched a shot across Putin’s bow that he never saw coming:
US exploitation/extraction of Ukrainian resources with long-term investment in Ukraine to stabilize the region and prevent Russian attacks.
It’s a curve ball nobody saw coming, and undermines Putin’s posturing to take Ukraine eventually. One of the main reasons Putin wanted Ukraine was for the resources and access to the Black Sea ports, which involved 13 of the Soviet naval yards in the 20th century, the Antonov design and heavy air transport production bureau, missile systems, armor, agriculture, steel smelting factories at Mariupol, and huge fields of oil not far under the ground in multiple regions.
When Trump says, “Yeah, I propose the US takes all of that in exchange for the billions of dollars in resources we have given to Ukraine.”, it sets a totally new paradigm that nobody knows how to even process.
It’s far worse for Putin that European nations sending troops to Ukraine, for example. That’s what the Germans and UK are talking about now, in case nobody heard.
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