Well, you have more insight into it than I do, but what's your take on the reliability/durability of this design, I am curious to know. I understand TT is who is behind it, and that gives me confidence, but still.
SAI 10 1-10
- Thread starter Guthwine
- Start date
Armament guys generally know how to design and make a robust optic. However, until a good number of these make it out there we have no real idea. Chances are these will be as robust as anything else out there. SAI6 definitely holds up very nicely and I see no reason to expect SAI10 to be any different.
I guess I just have a special affection for Nightforce because they test beyond what most others do, and I know I can count on them. Hopefully SAI ups their stringency for the SAI10 and its a great and proven option.
Maybe I missed it in this thread. Did you get to play with sai1-10 at shot? Interested in how the elevation turret is.
"Test beyond what others do"? What is it that they do that others do not?
When you say that you want SAI to to "up their stringency", what is that you think they do not do?
ILya
I looked at it at SHOT. Both elevation and windage are covered turrets. You can dial in a pinch, but it is really designed for holdign with the reticle.
ILya
Sure it could. SAI does not have a strong enough following that people will pay whatever it costs. A 25% tariff added onto the cost of a $1.5-2k optic significantly increases the price and decreases the value proposition.
It’s not like a cheap product where the tariff is fairly small numerically. And it’s not a luxury product where the price of the tariff doesn’t matter. It’s a mid-range optic in a fairly competitive market.
Nightforce is my gold standard. Most other manufacturers don't even do side impact testing. SAI among them.
I asked SAI if they side impact tested. They told me they didn't. Nx8 is a great optic. I use it to shoot things. Not watch birds. Swarovski is my choice for bird watching.
I am good to go ahead and call BS on this one. Everyone does during the development process
.Just another perspective...
I like my SAI 1-6 and I like my NX8. There are things I dislike about both of them.
I hate the "turrets" on the sai 6. The 1x isn't as true as the NX8 the NX8 that I have is flatter, has less edge distortion and has less mag at 1x.
The SAI 6 has some serious flare issues. Look in the direction of a rising sun and forget being able to see anything through the scope. I've never complained about flare before. I've literally never thought about it before. The NX8 controls flare much better (again I don't think about it), while the SAI 6 is literally not usable in some conditions above 2x mag.
I prefer the SAI reticle to the FC-DMX. The RAF feature is genius. It's really easy to see and bracket your target with, but it never obscures your target. I feel like the FC-DMX has a dead spot in the reticle... Try shooting a 6-10" target between 50 and 100 yards at 1x. If using illumination, the reticle will obscure the target, which I hate (the reticle turns into a 12 moa red dot). If above 1.5-2x, this is less of a problem as you don't need illumination and you can see around the horse shoe. The SAI 6 reticle is much easier to use without illumination, while the NX8 is more difficult for me to use without illum. I like that the t bars/posts come in closer on the SAI than on the FC-DMX. I prefer the NX8 at 8x, as I favor the floating dot vs cross hair in the SAI.
The SAI has a wider FOV, and the ocular is larger which makes the viewing experience nicer. However, the NX8 has clearly better resolution. They both have about the same CA (your mileage may vary). Going from memory here... I don't remember much of a difference in color or contrast.
The NX8 is smaller, the SAI feels large on a 10.5-14.5 build, while the size doesn't really matter on a 16" build. On a build with a 9" rail, the SAI is long enough to protrude into flashlight/laser controls.
I hate that on the NX8 I have to choose between a clear/flat/undistorted 1x picture and a razor sharp reticle, I can't have both. This isn't a problem above 1.5x. This problem exists for me on the SAI 6, but it's not nearly as bad, as the problem really shows itself when using illumination.
I wouldn't say one scope is nice and the other is garbage. The NX8 gives better optical performance in all viewing conditions. It has much better turrets (which is important as I swap barrels - LMT). The illumination is fantastic.
The SAI has a fantastic reticle, the turrets are garbage (which I wouldn't care about if I didn't swap barrels), the illumination is mediocre, which doesn't matter as the reticle is easy to use without illum. The stray light/flare issue is a real problem. The FOV is great and the larger ocular provides a nice viewing experience... Even if the optical performance isn't as good as the NX8.
I bought both expecting to sell one... But I can't pick a favorite, so they are both staying. They both work fine. 6x vs 8x doesn't matter to me. The SAI is clearly a better value, especially at used prices. But is it a better optic... I'm not sure about that.
I like my SAI 1-6 and I like my NX8. There are things I dislike about both of them.
I hate the "turrets" on the sai 6. The 1x isn't as true as the NX8 the NX8 that I have is flatter, has less edge distortion and has less mag at 1x.
The SAI 6 has some serious flare issues. Look in the direction of a rising sun and forget being able to see anything through the scope. I've never complained about flare before. I've literally never thought about it before. The NX8 controls flare much better (again I don't think about it), while the SAI 6 is literally not usable in some conditions above 2x mag.
I prefer the SAI reticle to the FC-DMX. The RAF feature is genius. It's really easy to see and bracket your target with, but it never obscures your target. I feel like the FC-DMX has a dead spot in the reticle... Try shooting a 6-10" target between 50 and 100 yards at 1x. If using illumination, the reticle will obscure the target, which I hate (the reticle turns into a 12 moa red dot). If above 1.5-2x, this is less of a problem as you don't need illumination and you can see around the horse shoe. The SAI 6 reticle is much easier to use without illumination, while the NX8 is more difficult for me to use without illum. I like that the t bars/posts come in closer on the SAI than on the FC-DMX. I prefer the NX8 at 8x, as I favor the floating dot vs cross hair in the SAI.
The SAI has a wider FOV, and the ocular is larger which makes the viewing experience nicer. However, the NX8 has clearly better resolution. They both have about the same CA (your mileage may vary). Going from memory here... I don't remember much of a difference in color or contrast.
The NX8 is smaller, the SAI feels large on a 10.5-14.5 build, while the size doesn't really matter on a 16" build. On a build with a 9" rail, the SAI is long enough to protrude into flashlight/laser controls.
I hate that on the NX8 I have to choose between a clear/flat/undistorted 1x picture and a razor sharp reticle, I can't have both. This isn't a problem above 1.5x. This problem exists for me on the SAI 6, but it's not nearly as bad, as the problem really shows itself when using illumination.
I wouldn't say one scope is nice and the other is garbage. The NX8 gives better optical performance in all viewing conditions. It has much better turrets (which is important as I swap barrels - LMT). The illumination is fantastic.
The SAI has a fantastic reticle, the turrets are garbage (which I wouldn't care about if I didn't swap barrels), the illumination is mediocre, which doesn't matter as the reticle is easy to use without illum. The stray light/flare issue is a real problem. The FOV is great and the larger ocular provides a nice viewing experience... Even if the optical performance isn't as good as the NX8.
I bought both expecting to sell one... But I can't pick a favorite, so they are both staying. They both work fine. 6x vs 8x doesn't matter to me. The SAI is clearly a better value, especially at used prices. But is it a better optic... I'm not sure about that.
The NX8 is VERY picky on setting up diopter. I have found most 1-8x scopes, are, annoyingly, but it's not bad once you set it up.
That said, I am still very interested to see how the SAI 1-10 actually do!
Thorb, Your experience with both pretty much mimics my experience with both. I have been talking about the flare/halation issue with ATI's optics for a while (not just SAI but also with TT, I conjecture it has to do with their multi-coating but I have no concrete evidence to this as of yet, regardless, it is a bit frustrating to pay $5k plus for an optic to get complete washout in low sun situations.)
I grabbed one of the first SAI 6's and fell in love; however, like you one of the big pain points is the turrets or maybe more precisely the tiny little knob designed for elf fingers that my meaty nubs apparently weren't designed for (and I don't have the largest hands out there mind you), it is a really pain and definitely pushes you towards setting zero once and using the reticle from that point forward - hopefully they have improved on this design with the SAI 10 (however, ATI has a tendency to keep doing what they're doing and have difficulty listening to the feedback of the users.)
I happen to like the aiming bullets, very (VERY) easy to see without illumination.
I like the NX8 1-8 for its compact size, I love the FC-DMx reticle and think it is my favorite LPVO reticle and think it would do well within an MPVO format, heck if NF offered it in their 2.5-20 it just might breathe new life into that scope as it's Achilles heal is poor reticle performance at low mag (and don't even mention SFP lest I beat you with a rusty old Swarovski scope for even mentioning the unmentionable).
I am very sensitive to diopter shift across magnification ranges, and 1-8's are pretty bad. 1-6's, some good some bad. Mk6 was excellent, vcog was horrific. The nx8 and atacr are pretty good, but the nx8 is closer to true 1x.
Adjust your diopter at 1x, make sure your scope exactly matches 1x with both eyes open. If you try to do diopter like a normal LR scope you will have all kinds of frustrations. An LPVO is first and foremost designed for 1x use and that is where your diopter should be set, if you find it is lacking somewhat at distance then this is a design limitation and not incorrectly configured diopter (well to a point). That being said, all eyes are different so yes, sometimes it is more finicky for some than for others, YMMV.
I've found most have what you'd consider design limitations. If I set the diopter to result in a true unity, most scopes will be blurry at 8x. The NX8 is a relatively rare exception for me.
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Blurry is relative but yes, this is the tradeoff of the LPVO design and why many are moving to MPVO designs. The LPVO simply isn't designed for "precision" work and ends up having too many compromises especially at the higher magnifications and distance (most are preset parallax between 100-150 yards) and begin to showcase their weakness beyond 300 - with some being a bit better than others. Over the past 5 years piggybacking RDS even on LPVO's has become more and more commplace(even among our SF operators) so much so that some are asking the question - if I piggyback an LPVO why not piggyback an MPVO in the 2-10/2-12 range with adjustable side focus/parallax, and some going even a step further and piggybacking the crossover scope with magnification range of 3-15/3-18/4-20 et al. The point is, you can piggyback anything you want, even some PRS guys have a piggyback or offset RDS on their big rigs - the situational awareness and unlimited eyebox of the RDS offers a huge advantage (but is really nothing new as even the military was looking into this some time ago with their ECOS-O program)
Diopter shift is a real thing with all FFP scopes. Riflescope testers we make measure it and there is a good amount of sample variation with all LPVOs I have looked at, even the very expensive ones.
With higher power scopes people notice it less because the demands on the reticle are much less stringent on low power. Besides with FFP scopes that do not go down to 1x, the right way to adjust the eyepiece is somewhere toward the middle of the mag range (geometric series middle, not arithmetic). That usually gets you to within a reasonable diopter shift on both ends. If you optimize the eyepiece on highest or lowest mag, you can run into issues.
LPVOs should generally be set up for 1x, so you are likely to see a bigger difference on the opposite end of the magnification range.
ILya
With higher power scopes people notice it less because the demands on the reticle are much less stringent on low power. Besides with FFP scopes that do not go down to 1x, the right way to adjust the eyepiece is somewhere toward the middle of the mag range (geometric series middle, not arithmetic). That usually gets you to within a reasonable diopter shift on both ends. If you optimize the eyepiece on highest or lowest mag, you can run into issues.
LPVOs should generally be set up for 1x, so you are likely to see a bigger difference on the opposite end of the magnification range.
ILya
When MPVO's reach the size and durability of the LPVO, I am definitely game to explore it. I've actually been trying to find a quality prism sight with a decent reticle, but ACOG's are all that exist in that realm and frankly, the reticle is trash. The Eotech offering shows the concept gaining traction.
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Even setting the VCOG 1-6 at 3-4x didn't solve THAT bag of trash for me, but on other scopes, for sure this is the ticket.
Primary arms has theirs, but they're married to that ACSS trash reticle...among other things.
Many, many moons ago, HuDisCo teased some next level shit with some sapphire prism lenses and titanium (or other space age) housing on the idea of having a more LPVOish optic in a an equal to or lighter package than an ACOG, better than a Specter. Along with the MPVO unicorn, THAT is the combat optic that has not been executed. Kudos to EOTech for giving it a try, but it appeared to some stout criticisms off the bat.
Yet here we are, still arguing about whose bullshit 1-8/1-10 sucks the least...and trying to find the greenest grass in the pasture when there's only brown to munch on.
It was so far ahead of its time. Alas, like the push-button to shift transmissions of yesteryear, it will have to wait its turn, it seems.
Whatever the case, I sampled them over the course of a few years, so it was rather consistent. Others have complained as well about same.
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