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Am I just trash with an AR?

Jackomason

Jackomason

Poop-smith aka "Turd Herder"
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 26, 2013
1,682
1,490
Westcliffe Colorado
#1
I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.
20250315_140516.jpg


The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

20250315_135320.jpg


Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

20250315_122210.jpg
 
#2
Sometimes the barrel doesn't like the bullets regardless of primers and/or powders. AR's are different animals when it comes to this between ba's. What's the twist rate?
 
#3
Top O' Texas said:
Sometimes the barrel doesn't like the bullets regardless of primers and/or powders. AR's are different animals when it comes to this between ba's. What's the twist rate?
Click to expand...
It's a WOA 18" SPR 1-8" rifle length.

I had that thought and have a few different types headed my way.

I'm used to bolt guns just shooting, so that's a fair assessment. I just thought the group shape changes were telling me something.
 
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#4
On the second picture are those stickies 1" or what? No reference to size. If they are 1" then your results could be a combo of fundamental problems, as in cheekweld, follow-thru, NPA, trigger control, don't reset trigger 'till you have impact. Is that a 4-16x42 ATACR? What mag are you trying to shoot groups with? What's with the bipod stretched out so tall? I'd have to be on my hands and knees to have a bipod that tall.
 
Last edited:
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#5
Use the same breathing and trigger control like ba's. The 8 is fine for the 75's unless they're match bullets. I haven't reloaded much for the 5.56, but will be reloading 75's of Hornady 75bthp and Speer 75tmj.
 
#6
1911hombre said:
On the second picture are those stickies 1" or what? No reference to size. If they are 1" then your results could be a combo of fundamental problems, as in cheekweld, follow-thru, NPA, trigger control. Is that a 4-16x42 ATACR? What mag are you trying to shoot groups with? What's with the bipod stretched out so tall? I's have to be on my hands and knees to have a bipod that tall.
Click to expand...

The stickers are just under 1".

It is a 4-16 ATACR @16x. I don't have any issues seeing the target and felt good about POA throughout. The mount is a 1.54" and I generally have more contact with the stock, so cheekweld could be an issue but I'd assume parallax adjustment would solve that (?).

I pin the trigger to the rear, build a position behind the rifle and don't take my face off the gun until the group is done. I'm a midpack shooter at matches. I can't see myself though so maybe my position is jacked up? I guess I'll video myself when I go out next.

Would I be wrong in focusing on my rear bag?
 
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#9
Fundamentals are fundamentals. That’s why they are called fundamental. Position, breathing, sight alignment, trigger press. But, compared to bolt guns, AR triggers tend to suck. And, the recoil starts as soon as you break the trigger. The giant mass of metal hurtling toward you as the other tiny piece of metal hurtles away from you gives you less margin for error, even in a “low recoiling” 5.56/223 rifle. An AR will exploit gaps in your fundamentals that a bolt action doesn’t know exist. Grip pressure, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, bipod load; these all affect the shot, and they affect an AR more.

So, what trigger are you running in that thing?
 
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#10
Jackomason said:
It's a WOA 18" SPR 1-8" rifle length.

I had that thought and have a few different types headed my way.

I'm used to bolt guns just shooting, so that's a fair assessment. I just thought the group shape changes were telling me something.
Click to expand...
I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping
 
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#11
hlee said:
Fundamentals are fundamentals. That’s why they are called fundamental. Position, breathing, sight alignment, trigger press. But, compared to bolt guns, AR triggers tend to suck. And, the recoil starts as soon as you break the trigger. The giant mass of metal hurtling toward you as the other tiny piece of metal hurtles away from you gives you less margin for error, even in a “low recoiling” 5.56/223 rifle. An AR will exploit gaps in your fundamentals that a bolt action doesn’t know exist. Grip pressure, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, bipod load; these all affect the shot, and they affect an AR more.

So, what trigger are you running in that thing?
Click to expand...
I think you're right. I really try to practice my fundamentals but I don't think the bolt guns are telling the full story. Although I still shoot my 300 NM decently.

It's an SSAE, however I also have a MBT2S that seems to be a bit more crisp.

hafejd30 said:
I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping
Click to expand...

I did try both with and without a crimp. I'll get some factory ammo this next week but I'll be stuck at a conference so it'll have to wait.

I think I'll also pick up a magpul DT PR to see if it rides a bag better.
 
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#12
hafejd30 said:
I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping
Click to expand...
Some disagree with the crimping part, but I crimping all cartridges used for my AR's. Full auto is more if a reason to crimp than semi is. Reduce recoil and it takes away the kinetic energy which usually slows down cyclic rate.
 
#16
Top O' Texas said:
Some disagree with the crimping part, but I crimping all cartridges used for my AR's. Full auto is more if a reason to crimp than semi is. Reduce recoil and it takes away the kinetic energy which usually slows down cyclic rate.
Click to expand...
I had a rock river LAR 8 308 I loaded for a while back. Obviously a 308 vs 556 here. But used small base rcbs dies with no crimp. The bolt slamming forward would work like a bullet puller and the bullet would slide forward .005-.010” when the round loaded

In this case there’s many things it can be. Obviously checking equipment like rings etc are first. Then ammo combo.

That stringing would lead me believe the gun wants to shoot well but equipment or fundamentals are holding it back
 
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#17
Jackomason said:
Exactly. I've never shot a 4" group let alone 6"+

I haven't ruled the equipment out but I don't want to be that guy. I've been shooting and reloading for a while now and this is a new low lol. I'm all for learning though.
Click to expand...
For sure. You’ve been on here a long time and obviously hand load, so I give that a lot of respect frankly. You mentioned shooting bolt guns and building your first AR so that’s my assessment. Gas guns as you’ve read are fundamentally challenging. The groups aren’t horrible but I shoot mostly gas. Varget and anything 69-77 should be an easy work up 7-8 tw.
 
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#19
Gas guns are different for sure and much harder to shoot well. Just to see chamber a round and slowly extract it and see if the bullet is all scraped up. I've seen feed lips fuck up some bullets. I also bed my barrels on precision gas guns.(Idk if it helps or not but mine shoot pretty well). I have a white oak barrel that shoots 75g bullets as well as a bolt gun at about 2650fps(20" barrel) when I speed it up the groups open up but it's still around moa. Good enough for gas gun matches.
 
#21
Your first pic shows predominantly vertical errors in the group. That is breathing control and poor check weld.

Your second pic shows more horizontal error which is trigger control and body/target index error(not straight behind the rifle).

As mentioned above, the bipod is a too high and collapsible stocks are a bit loose and these will just plain open a group up.

So, add a check riser and some tape to make the stock tighter and fit you or get that PRS you mentioned. (I prefer the UBR, a little less stable but it adapts to more different positions). Get yourself straight behind the rifle. Frank has an old video here somewhere that he demonstrates this using a pencil analogy. Imagine two pencils inline lying on a desk and you have to push the second one forward by only holding the first. If they are not inline the second slides at a tangent, like the bullets. Also, draw that trigger straight back and follow through (hold it.) Semi auto exploits poor NPOA (natural point of aim) more as the internal ballistics take more time.
 
#22
Mulepackhunter said:
if it is the equipment there is so much tolerance stacking on an AR its going to be tough to find on here. A good builder could pull it apart and maybe find some issues to look into. Its nice if you have other guns to swap parts with and eliminate possibilities
Click to expand...
I do have 3 ARs I can play with. This is my first precision AR. If you're right, things should sort themselves out with the full LMT build.
20250208_124633.jpg


I'm going to see if I can figure it out before spending the money on the D.wilson conversion.

I'll report back once I change some crap and test some other bullets. I figured 3/4" was sloppy fundamentals but I guess I'll find out.
 
#23
Jackomason said:
I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.
View attachment 8641126

The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

View attachment 8641132

Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

View attachment 8641138
Click to expand...
Some other obvious things...Did you check the glass to the rings are tight...The mount to the receiver? Different glass to rule out the NF is not an issue? IS the barrel fully free floating? Nothing touching the barrel?
 
#24
Update.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I made two changes.

First, I changed the B5 bravo out for the Magpul DT PR. I felt much more stable and the gun had a predictable recoil impulse straight back.
20250322_145219.jpg


Second, I tried a couple more types of bullets. This is really where the issue was. This barrel is laughably picky but it likes 77gr SMKs so that's ok.

20250322_143529.jpg

My calipers batteries are dead so I'll have to run to town and get some more but it looks to be shooting 1/2-3/4" (5/8" with a tape).

The 77gr American reloading blems were impressively bad but they don't seem to be AR bullets at all. And yes, that's 4x 5 shot groups...

This also gave me the opportunity to video myself from various angles. I'm happy with my fundamentals.

Again, thanks for all the responses.
 
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#25
OP, I understand that you are handleloading, and also that you are planning on shooting some factory ammo. I don’t hand load for my 556, but in my accuracy tests with my carbine I found that I had much better results with “correct” ammo. So for my 556 it shot 556 ammo much tighter than 223 ammo.
 
#30
Jackomason said:
No, different bullet. 69 smk vs 77 smk.
Click to expand...
Ok. Ill share an example of how a junk barrel can vary from over 9 moa down to 1 moa. Its a 16” elcheapo chrome lined gov profile.
Varies from bad to worse with all factory ammo i tried. Its a piece of junk, and i now treat it as such.

5 shots at 100 yards

Yugoslavian 55gr fmj
Larger than 9 moa
(Couldnt find that picture. Sorry)


Factory PMC xm193 55gr fmj
7 moa
IMG_5126.jpeg


Factory PMC bronze 55gr fmj
2.5 moa.
IMG_5123.jpeg


Factory hornady 55gr hollow point match.
About 2.5 moa.
IMG_5124.jpeg


And 55gr vmax hand loads, zero load workup, just loaded with ARComp powder and shot it.
About 1moa. And ive repeated this group with the same results.
IMG_5125.jpeg




Regardless, i hope you get yours shooting how you want it to. 👍
 
#31
Semis are a different animal to shoot versus a bolt. The bullet takes longer to leave the barrel after the trigger breaks and this amplifies any fundamental deficiencies

The online training here is really good. Highly recommend that and dry firing.
 
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#32
Makinchips208 said:
Ok. Ill share an example of how a junk barrel can vary from over 9 moa down to 1 moa. Its a 16” elcheapo chrome lined gov profile.
Varies from bad to worse with all factory ammo i tried. Its a piece of junk, and i now treat it as such.

5 shots at 100 yards

Yugoslavian 55gr fmj
Larger than 9 moa
(Couldnt find that picture. Sorry)


Factory PMC xm193 55gr fmj
7 moa
View attachment 8647159

Factory PMC bronze 55gr fmj
2.5 moa.
View attachment 8647139

Factory hornady 55gr hollow point match.
About 2.5 moa.
View attachment 8647138

And 55gr vmax hand loads, zero load workup, just loaded with ARComp powder and shot it.
About 1moa. And ive repeated this group with the same results.
View attachment 8647137



Regardless, i hope you get yours shooting how you want it to. 👍
Click to expand...
That's wild. I think we can all agree that in general a decent barrel with good bullets, good brass, and a consistent powder charge should shoot 1 MOA or under. Again, I'm not familiar with gas guns but that seems reasonable. All I was hoping for was 1.25".

BurtG said:
Semis are a different animal to shoot versus a bolt.
Click to expand...
I hear this a lot. And it's was what made me think I was doing something wrong to begin with. But I didn't have a base line to compare it to.

how much can a small frame really exploit a shooters weakness?
 
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