Appreciate the feedback, not snarky at all.
Keeping it car adjacent. The new 4Runners are excellent (2024, haven’t driven the 2025) but I’m still keeping my first gen.
I appreciate the explanation. Thanks.
Current Surgeon vs AI Action
- Thread starter Milspec Longhorn
- Start date
Keeping it car adjacent. The new 4Runners are excellent (2024, haven’t driven the 2025) but I’m still keeping my first gen.
I appreciate the explanation. Thanks.
Because I didn’t sit in a porter shitter in Agraba reading about Impacts
For me, a Surgeon was the benchmark and still is.
I did eventually get an AI & I love it too but the Surgeon just really gives my the fizz.
Another real plus for me at least with the AI system is the AI AW mags. 10 rounder is the same size as the 5 round AICS, feeds absolutely smooth and flawlessly and can be loaded with the mag in the action if needed.
I believe impact makes an AW cut. Not sure about surgeon or what not. How reliable they’d be in an impact I don’t know. The combo of chassis and adjustment I’m sure would determine this.
But the ability to run those mags in either setup is worth the price of admission. AW mags are also longer internally so it gives you a bit more length if you like to run 260 or topped bullets where you’re limited on mag length
I believe impact makes an AW cut. Not sure about surgeon or what not. How reliable they’d be in an impact I don’t know. The combo of chassis and adjustment I’m sure would determine this.
But the ability to run those mags in either setup is worth the price of admission. AW mags are also longer internally so it gives you a bit more length if you like to run 260 or topped bullets where you’re limited on mag length
More companies should make AW compatible actions. Feeding rounds from a AICS mags feeds and sounds like garbage. Then you have some of the crack smokers out there that prefer the AICS mag over the AW mag. Those are the people who think Leupold is a top tier scope.
Back in the days of the AW/AWSM and then original AX and then the AXMC things didn't change nearly as quickly.
I still think the original AW in the 2.0 config with the dovetail mount was about as really rugged and trouble free as you could make a rifle.
Beat me to it.
Surgeons are not sold as “prefit-able”.
From a phone call I had about a year ago …
take 10 actions
Measure them
Take the middle spec
That’s your prefit spec
That’s from the horses mouth
And the current owner doesn’t want to and is unwilling to make any changes..design or cosmetic.
It’s true. Mike has a little more clout than ol doc. Not much, but enough that he still gets to purchase them.
Just curious which “rung” of shooter you are? And also your experience shooting and working on all of these rifles.
Sounds like Terry Cross very nicely clarified you had little to no clue about “prefit actions” earlier.
Sounds like someone who either can’t afford an AI or someone who is justifying purchasing whatever setup they have.
My advice just shoot and have fun bud, it’s a lot more fun when you aren’t letting your insecurities get the best of you and being worried about what the next guy spends his money on.
If the OP wants a QC barrel like an AI but is attracted to the R700 platform, there’s always the Terminus Zeus.
Trying to decipher this thread - lots of great info - for an average guy-not PRS shooter or shooting in adverse weather - what would be a common failure for 700 based action to prepare for based on actual experience? Also - same question for AI-non-competitive average guy shooter - no adverse weather - what would be a possible common failure to prepare for based on actual experience? Trying to make an eyes wide open choice. Thank you..
Lol, there is definitely some deciphering to do above.
Personally, once things are squared away, neither platform should encounter problems in normal conditions. The 700 potentially needs more tweaking when setting it up with your mags depending on how the stars align. The AI should just run out of the box. But neither of my customs have posed any real hassle.
Based on the 2 local prs matches a month and ~ 4 big 2-day matches a year I attend (I'm not a PRS legend). From what I have seen, the trigger is the only "action" related failure that seems to occur now. This isn't a common occurance, but definitely happens in some of the western desert areas I'm in, every so often. I'm not counting other shenanigans like barrels loosening, or optics failing.
Unfortunately, my AXSR is my only bolt action to have had "a" trigger issue in a match so far and I have seen one AT with the old trigger have issues, so the AI is not immune. I have not yet seen issues with my Bix TSP or TT diamond, but I've seen several TTs go down before. This is out in sand hell though.
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The current quality of actions and parts makes the reliability argument such a dumb one.
Back in the day was a much different story. AI's were clearly superior to custom built rifles when it came to adverse conditions. If you didn't want to get an AI, Surgeon was really the only game in town that could provide a field reliable action, but you were still stuck with BR type triggers.
It's different today. Pretty much all of the actions, definitely all the regularly recommended ones here, are designed for use in adverse conditions. So are sensitive components like triggers.
Anything man-made can and will eventually fail in the right set of conditions. But precision rifles have come an incredibly long way in the past decade. You don't need to choose between an AI or custom rifle to get reliability anymore.
OP
Don't let a bunch of guys on the internet tell you what YOU need. The info you are getting is what we as individuals think are the most important parts of a rifle and with our own bias of what makes it best.
What you really should do is attend a small local match and try to get some time behind several rifles and have a genuine conversation with the owners about the pros/cons of their rifles system.
Oddly enough there is a lot of shade thrown about AI failures but only in the "trust me, it happens a lot" scenario... All systems have failures and from my few observations of failures (trust me, it happens a lot) it is typically caused by user error in some way or another. Mismatching components, adjusting triggers outside of their listed parameters, etc.
If you ask me what the best rifle ever built is, I would tell you the AXMC is the bestest. Does that make it the best rifle for PRS? Would you even like it if you shot it? Only you can answer these questions in the end.
There are a ton of great actions out there and you won't be disappointed by any of them - even if there are features of another brand that you decide you can't live without.
Don't let a bunch of guys on the internet tell you what YOU need. The info you are getting is what we as individuals think are the most important parts of a rifle and with our own bias of what makes it best.
What you really should do is attend a small local match and try to get some time behind several rifles and have a genuine conversation with the owners about the pros/cons of their rifles system.
Oddly enough there is a lot of shade thrown about AI failures but only in the "trust me, it happens a lot" scenario... All systems have failures and from my few observations of failures (trust me, it happens a lot) it is typically caused by user error in some way or another. Mismatching components, adjusting triggers outside of their listed parameters, etc.
If you ask me what the best rifle ever built is, I would tell you the AXMC is the bestest. Does that make it the best rifle for PRS? Would you even like it if you shot it? Only you can answer these questions in the end.
There are a ton of great actions out there and you won't be disappointed by any of them - even if there are features of another brand that you decide you can't live without.
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Vivacious Stallion posted about first hand experience of an AXSR going down in a match. AI failures happen, and they are certainly not all in a "trust me, it happens a lot" scenario.
With that said, AI's are perfectly fine rifles but they aren't markedly better in harsh conditions than a 700 style action paired with a reliable trigger. Mk13 proved that out decades ago.
Thanks for all the info and encouragement -much wisdom---but with such varied opinions it is challenging to for an average Joe like me to sift through. Seems with AI you can't change the trigger to say TT Diamond which was mentioned for 700 actions- since people mentioned trigger issues with AI not sure of the TT Diamond is better or if AI offers an improved trigger over the ones mentioned having issues.
The AI as far as I know has basically 3 current triggers you could end up with. The standard which is in the AX/AT/AXMC, the competition which is in the ATX/ATXC (the XC may have same as AXSR) and I believe the AXSR that @Vivacious Stallion mentions is its own design
There’s going to be many more stories of 700 triggers going down but there’s also many more 700 triggers in use than AI triggers
Your biggest advantage aside from chassis options with a R700 footprint is the triggers. Your options are endless. The best part of the trigger is it cost $200-$250 give or take for something like a trigger tech diamond from the sale section here. There’s tons of trigger options on the used market here both single and two stage
You could easily have a spare if needed or afford to try a few to decide.
To try an AI comp trigger is about $550 and they don’t show up in the px very often.
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Take a look at different actions as well like comparing impact and terminus. The Zeus has a QD barrel feature more setup like the AI but in a set screw fashion. It also has a 60° throw like the AI where the impact generally is a 90° and I think they have a 75°.
Personally I prefer my 60° AI and 70° tikka throw to my 90° bolts. The AI is the heaviest of them. 90° throws will generally be less
Personally I prefer my 60° AI and 70° tikka throw to my 90° bolts. The AI is the heaviest of them. 90° throws will generally be less
Thanks much. Will look at those. Seems the AI Comp trigger can be had - but don't know how it compares to TT Diamond which is only one I am familiar with
The AI Comp and the similar AXSR trigger are excellent 2 stage triggers, but they are not a 5 oz single stage like the TT or Bix. Does that matter to you, only you can say. A good shooter will shoot great groups with both.
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The AI comp trigger is a bix n Andy and they are money. They won’t require replacement if you pierce one single primer like a TT.
If you run them at a few ounces though and don’t maintain them at all and let them get packed full of gunk they’ll have issues just like anything else. Just about anything mechanical will fail from lack of maintenance.
The only AI that I have ever seen fail at a match was my own after I pierced enough primers with high pressure ammo and small primers in my large pin AXMC to finally jam the firing pin up with pieces of primer cup. I knew this was a problem with large pins and I fucked around and found out.
On another note I was shooting another AX one day years before that with very hot loaded ammo in heavy rain and it was blowing the primers out of the cases and several went into the bolt lug recess and that gun was literally eating primers and did not stop functioning. They are beasts and there’s really nothing else that even gives them a run for their money.
XTSP manufacturers the AI comp trigger.
Here’s a nice little timeline of that day from the ol iPhone photo bank. The conditions driving out, the conditions there, a few of the pieces of brass during while we were laughing out asses off that this gun was still working, and then the aftermath of how many primers that rifle ate and didn’t skip a beat.
I like Surgeon actions and love impact actions, but they WILL NOT run with an AI when the conditions are shit. I’ve shot matches where my rifle was caked in mud and it didn’t stop working when others were struggling to get a single round off.
I like Surgeon actions and love impact actions, but they WILL NOT run with an AI when the conditions are shit. I’ve shot matches where my rifle was caked in mud and it didn’t stop working when others were struggling to get a single round off.
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The SH reloading mantra: We start at book max and work our way up!
Fukushima then we work our way up to Chernobyl loads.
The SH reloading mantra: We start at book max and work our way up!
If you think its bad here, you should look at the LRH forum...
"I like Surgeon actions and love impact actions, but they WILL NOT run with an AI when the conditions are shit. I’ve shot matches where my rifle was caked in mud and it didn’t stop working when others were struggling to get a single round off." - what do you attribute this to?
Because in spite of the idea that a commercial action on a custom rifle is as good as an AI, it’s not designed and tested the way the AI system was.
So not sure then what would technically
cause the Surgeon to not be able to handle these conditions you mentioned like AI - know lots of Surgeons used in the Military (RACS CSR for example) so imagine they have seen some extreme conditions
cause the Surgeon to not be able to handle these conditions you mentioned like AI - know lots of Surgeons used in the Military (RACS CSR for example) so imagine they have seen some extreme conditions
Was the Surgeon designed and tested to the same standards? If it was then it should be on equal footing. Are you talking about purchasing a mil spec rifle or building a custom? Not necessarily the same thing.
No 700 trigger is as simple or resistant to debris impingement upon function compared to the AW/AT/AX trigger.
The 6 split lug design and design on the bolt of the AT/AX makes the action more resistant to debris and environmentals stopping the bolt function into battery.
The AI action is significantly overbuilt to withstand any pressure issues from debris or environmental factors in the chamber from causing issues compared to a 700.
In no military trial ever conducted has a 700 action exceeded a sako trg or AI in MRBF.
The AXSR was bounced from the ASR trial due to a trigger failure in the comp style triggers they submitted. The trigger failed to actuate on one of the three test guns due to debris. My understanding is the trigger is now changed post that solicitation, and the AXSR trigger is now closer to the AT but with greater adjustability. obviously, I would expect someone with greater knowledge would correct this if I have it wrong.
Ironically, guess what is now infamous for trigger failures… the MRAD. Not to mention the tenon/chassis barrel barrel clamp failures that necessitated a mid life upgrade.
The 6 split lug design and design on the bolt of the AT/AX makes the action more resistant to debris and environmentals stopping the bolt function into battery.
The AI action is significantly overbuilt to withstand any pressure issues from debris or environmental factors in the chamber from causing issues compared to a 700.
In no military trial ever conducted has a 700 action exceeded a sako trg or AI in MRBF.
The AXSR was bounced from the ASR trial due to a trigger failure in the comp style triggers they submitted. The trigger failed to actuate on one of the three test guns due to debris. My understanding is the trigger is now changed post that solicitation, and the AXSR trigger is now closer to the AT but with greater adjustability. obviously, I would expect someone with greater knowledge would correct this if I have it wrong.
Ironically, guess what is now infamous for trigger failures… the MRAD. Not to mention the tenon/chassis barrel barrel clamp failures that necessitated a mid life upgrade.
Care to explain why this is? I’m genuinely curious as I can’t picture the why / how of it. Is it as simple as there not being raceways? I’d think lugs would scrape / displace whatever they have to when going into battery be they 2 lugs or 6.
OK. Thanks. Not sure what would have been different in the Surgeon actions used in the milspec stuff. Be interesting to know.
I’m no expert on Surgeon. I know they sold some rifles in the GWOT. Chamber’s may have been modified, specific triggers, etc. I don’t know.
The AW and AX series of rifles didn’t suffer from trigger failures until the appearance of the competition triggers AFAIK.
I own both and like both. Different tools for different jobs. But if I had to chose one for reliability, it would be the AI.
Don’t fixate on the failure rates, they are both incredibly low. If you want the Surgeon, get it, it’s a quality piece of kit.
Only failures I've seen in AI have been from competition triggers or people running a BR cartridge without a mag kit and getting feeding issues.
As mentioned both are good. If you don't like the AI chassis then no downside to a surgeon or similar premium action.
I've owned and still own quite a few rifles and have a AI and TRG. They all work and I've had no failures with the 700 style actions with regular maintenance
As mentioned both are good. If you don't like the AI chassis then no downside to a surgeon or similar premium action.
I've owned and still own quite a few rifles and have a AI and TRG. They all work and I've had no failures with the 700 style actions with regular maintenance
What are people’s thoughts on the actual AI barrels compared to say Bartlein or Krieger you could have with Surgeon or Impact?
There is no real difference. AINA factory barrels are Bartlein, chambered by Wintac.
Some older AI Bartlien barrels like on my AXMC were done by Dave Tooley. Great shooting barrels also.
Yeah, I don’t know when they switched but had a Dave Tooley chambered AXSA a decade ago and it was a hammer.
Dave Tooley? He’s a gun builder. I believe he did all the original AXMC barrels. He also did tikka for me with a proof barrel. It hammers to. I have a very early AXMC all my barrels are done by him. I am waiting on my Bartlien blank and I will send it to him for it to be chambered. I have a 338,300wm,308 and a 260 all done by Dave
Good to know. Definitely will have to check him out. Heard he chambered some of the original Remington CSR barrels
The SH reloading mantra: We start at book max and work our way up!
That was 45gr of Varget behind 185gr Juggs. Maybe slightly over pressure but not that much. You can be well under max pressure and introduce water into the chamber and pressure goes up. I’ve had pressure signs shooting in the rain with FGMM which is far from hot ammo.
The key takeaway here is that the rifle didn’t give a shit.
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