No love for the 300 WSM?

rothgyr

rothgyr

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    • Feb 12, 2018
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    #1
    Looking at building my first long action cartridge for ELR specifically, and have it pretty much narrowed down to 300 WSM and 300 Norma.

    I'm leaning toward the WSM based on the facts that:
    • There's Lapua Brass for $1 cheaper than Norma
    • 65 gr of powder vs Norma's 80ish
    • Abundance of excellent load data from the BR crowd, along with a lot of records having been set at 1k with them
    • I can load lighter 200s with my current stock of h4350 if I want
    • I can be a hipster and do something less mainstream, I guess?
    • I can shoot 220 Hybrids with the same BC as a 230 Hybrid, or if I want more BC, I can step down to the 2800 FPS node, and shoot a 230 A-Tip
    As far as I can tell the biggest arguments against the WSM is that it's not any good as a short action calibur, and isn't using the potential of the long action if you go that way, but... Does it actually lose anything to a 300 WM or PRC shooting 230s?

    1739302487465.png


    I understand that you can push a 245 hybrid from a PRC and Win Mag, but at that point, why bother with either when you can do it more comfortably from a 300 Norma?

    Is anyone on snipershide shooting a WSM? By the looks of it, it's the red headed step child of the ELR possible cartridges.
     
    #2
    It's not dead it just suffered like many other new cartridges have over the years.
    Bring it to market let consumers get a taste and do some of the R&D for you.
    Word gets around it's a real contender then ammo and Brass evaporate and the consumer moves on.
    I think it's a great chambering but would probably be looking more at the 7mm short mag offerings for my own needs.
     
    #4
    Bandit320 said:
    “Does it actually lose anything to a 300 WM or PRC shooting 230s?”. My PRC does 230 A-Tips at 2960.
    Click to expand...

    Without running dangerous pressures or a 30" tube I don't think it can match the PRC.
    But given the BC on some of the heavy 30's I would take best accuracy over a little more velocity.
    The short fat powder column theoretically could hold some advantage as well but to compare them you are no longer using the WSM for its main benefit of running in a medium length action.
     
    #8
    rothgyr said:
    Looking at building my first long action cartridge for ELR specifically, and have it pretty much narrowed down to 300 WSM and 300 Norma.

    I'm leaning toward the WSM based on the facts that:
    • There's Lapua Brass for $1 cheaper than Norma
    • 65 gr of powder vs Norma's 80ish
    • Abundance of excellent load data from the BR crowd, along with a lot of records having been set at 1k with them
    • I can load lighter 200s with my current stock of h4350 if I want
    • I can be a hipster and do something less mainstream, I guess?
    • I can shoot 220 Hybrids with the same BC as a 230 Hybrid, or if I want more BC, I can step down to the 2800 FPS node, and shoot a 230 A-Tip
    As far as I can tell the biggest arguments against the WSM is that it's not any good as a short action calibur, and isn't using the potential of the long action if you go that way, but... Does it actually lose anything to a 300 WM or PRC shooting 230s?

    View attachment 8614850

    I understand that you can push a 245 hybrid from a PRC and Win Mag, but at that point, why bother with either when you can do it more comfortably from a 300 Norma?

    Is anyone on snipershide shooting a WSM? By the looks of it, it's the red headed step child of the ELR possible cartridges.
    Click to expand...
    Where does that 220 gr wsm data come from? Seems very optimistic.
     
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    #9

    Berger's BC numbers for the 220 LRHT:​



    1739312391509.png








    Berger 230 Hybrid:​




    1739313197816.png



    WSM was pretty popular loaded long for 1000yds BR from 2016 to 2020, numerous loads have been posted for 215s and 220s, especially with RL23.

    Running 230s with h1000: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/300wsm-load.7030557/#post-8906888

    www.snipershide.com

    Best powders for 300 WSM?

    Some context: Have a switch barrel short action MPA BA rifle in 6.5 CM, with the West Texas Ordnance SwitchLug system. I want to make full use of the barrel switching / caliber switching capabilities of the rifle system, and get a new barrel in the largest possibly 300 cal magnum cartridge...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com


    These are just two references, but google will give you a lot more. No powder manufacturers are publishing loads with 220s or 230s because the WSM is "a short action or medium action caliber".

    A lot of the slow powders like Retumbo, H1000, etc. are suited to larger cases. Similar to a Dasher pushing a 115 DTAC at 2950 with Varget vs a 6X47L or 6XC pushing a 115 DTAC at 2950 with h4350. If you want 3k FPS, you'll need a big long case with slower powders (Retumbo, H1000, RL26), but if you're shooting for 2950, you can start to look at faster powders (within reason, obviously), like RL23, h4831 SC, h4350, etc.
     
    #10
    rothgyr said:

    Berger's BC numbers for the 220 LRHT:​



    View attachment 8614975







    Berger 230 Hybrid:​




    View attachment 8614980


    WSM was pretty popular loaded long for 1000yds BR from 2016 to 2020, numerous loads have been posted for 215s and 220s, especially with RL23.

    Running 230s with h1000: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/300wsm-load.7030557/#post-8906888

    www.snipershide.com

    Best powders for 300 WSM?

    Some context: Have a switch barrel short action MPA BA rifle in 6.5 CM, with the West Texas Ordnance SwitchLug system. I want to make full use of the barrel switching / caliber switching capabilities of the rifle system, and get a new barrel in the largest possibly 300 cal magnum cartridge...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com


    These are just two references, but google will give you a lot more. No powder manufacturers are publishing loads with 220s or 230s because the WSM is "a short action or medium action caliber".

    A lot of the slow powders like Retumbo, H1000, etc. are suited to larger cases. Similar to a Dasher pushing a 115 DTAC at 2950 with Varget vs a 6X47L or 6XC pushing a 115 DTAC at 2950 with h4350. If you want 3k FPS, you'll need a big long case with slower powders (Retumbo, H1000, RL26), but if you're shooting for 2950, you can start to look at faster powders (within reason, obviously), like RL23, h4831 SC, h4350, etc.
    Click to expand...

    It Is absolutely servicable just not optimal is what everyone is saying considering you would already be switching to a long action for it to reach it's potential.
    Atleast you would already be set up with the action and stock if you scratch that itch and realize you need a little more horse power.
     
    #11
    300WSM is a great long range round as people have already mentioned. However, if you’re looking to build a legit dedicated ELR rig then there are much better options. A big factor to consider, which you have touched on, is the fact that when you step up to Lapua bolt faces things start to get more expensive. They get WAY more expensive when you step up to Cheytac bolt faces, and you have to invest in a completely new reloading setup. In ELR, mag feeding is irrelevant and you’re almost certainly going to be reloading, so if you’re looking to maximize performance on a standard magnum bolt face that you can reload on a normal reloading press, that will give you excellent trace and ground signature to spot impacts/misses you would be hard pressed to beat the 375 RUM shooting 390gr A-tips. A 32” barrel and N570 will get you 2820fps. Where I live with a DA of 5000ft, it remains super sonic to 2450 yards.
     
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    #15
    With Lapua now making 300 WSM brass, it is absolutely not the red headed stepchild. The F Class guys are the ones really pushing it if I’m not mistaken. In a long action you’ll be able to wring out as much performance as possible.

    It it will not keep up with the larger cartridges at ELR distances. You just don’t have the case capacity. You can compare a 30” WSM to a 26” Norma and pretend but if you build the guns equally it’s obvious why the bigger cases exist.

    There’s no replacement for displacement.
     
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    #16
    300 WSM is awesome in a SA for a light hunter.
    Im running 200 gr bullets at 2816 fps from 24” barrel and SA mag length.
    SD 7 over 50+ shots.
    Very accurate


    I would not build one vs a 300 Norma or maybe PRC for plans of ELR.
     
    #17
    This may not be popular with what I'm about to say but ELR starts at a mile and the majority of dedicated ELR shooters will say the same thing.
    My first couple ELR matches that was made clear to me by the hard core ELR shooters.
    Anyway, 300WSM is a nice round for hunting but for ELR you have to start with a big .30 with heavy bullets.
    I use a 300prc for light division, 338LM for heavy.
     
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    #18
    375fan said:
    This may not be popular with what I'm about to say but ELR starts at a mile and the majority of dedicated ELR shooters will say the same thing.
    My first couple ELR matches that was made clear to me by the hard core ELR shooters.
    Anyway, 300WSM is a nice round for hunting but for ELR you have to start with a big .30 with heavy bullets.
    I use a 300prc for light division, 338LM for heavy.
    Click to expand...
    Curious to know how the 300 PRC did in the light division?
     
    #19
    Paul1262 said:
    Curious to know how the 300 PRC did in the light division?
    Click to expand...
    230-ATIPS@2940. Could be me or maybe load but out to 1900 things seem ok ( provided can get the wind right and my spotter and I can see misses) after that hit ratio goes down quite a bit I'll admit. Again, could be me, maybe the load. I've done a limited number of of matches last couple years. We'll see what happens with more matches under my belt with this setup.
    Have noticed the serious ELR shooters using big stuff, 375, 408, 416, etc. can have their hands full trying to make consistent hits at 1900-2000 and farther at times. I enjoy the challenge.
     
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    #20
    375fan said:
    230-ATIPS@2940. Could be me or maybe load but out to 1900 things seem ok ( provided can get the wind right and my spotter and I can see misses) after that hit ratio goes down quite a bit I'll admit. Again, could be me, maybe the load. I've done a limited number of of matches last couple years. We'll see what happens with more matches under my belt with this setup.
    Have noticed the serious ELR shooters using big stuff, 375, 408, 416, etc. can have their hands full trying to make consistent hits at 1900-2000 and farther at times. I enjoy the challenge.
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for the info.
     
    #21
    I am hear to sway you to built a rifle on the 300wsm over the 300 PRC.
    My 300wsm is built on a Kelbly Atlas Long action, in a Cadex chassis.

    I selected the WSM for the case design and better ES /SD numbers. As with other cases of similar design 6BRA vs 243w, 284w vs the 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Norma . The 300 WSM utilizing a short, fat case places the powder closer to the primer flash hole. This design helps with uniform ignition and consistent internal ballistics. The cartridge's design allows for efficient use of powder, the result is lower standard deviation (SD) and extreme spread (ES) compared to the .300 PRC.
    It has produced some incredible groups like Charles Greer 2.862″ 100-10X group, beating all known 1000-Yard HG 10-shot records at the time.
    The WSM has less case capacity than the .300 PRC with nearly identical ballistic performance using approx. 10–15% less powder. In a long action using .338 CIP mags, I can take full advantage of the cases capacity by seating the bullet much further out. I am currently using the Berger 215 running approx. 2930fps with ES of 15 and SD around 5. I have no experience with the 300PRC to compare.
    Lapua just came out with 300WSM cases.

    The 300 PRC can run a heavier bullet faster but I believe it loses some of the advantage as a result of the larger ES.

    Using the Nightforce ELR match and their one MOA targets, as reference the 300wsm can (just) stay within the one MOA target size out to 2,100 yards.

    Here is the 300wsm out to 3,000 from MarkandSam you have to have consistent ES/SD to see these results

    Trevor
     
    #22
    Trevor said:
    I am hear to sway you to built a rifle on the 300wsm over the 300 PRC.
    My 300wsm is built on a Kelbly Atlas Long action, in a Cadex chassis.

    I selected the WSM for the case design and better ES /SD numbers. As with other cases of similar design 6BRA vs 243w, 284w vs the 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Norma . The 300 WSM utilizing a short, fat case places the powder closer to the primer flash hole. This design helps with uniform ignition and consistent internal ballistics. The cartridge's design allows for efficient use of powder, the result is lower standard deviation (SD) and extreme spread (ES) compared to the .300 PRC.
    It has produced some incredible groups like Charles Greer 2.862″ 100-10X group, beating all known 1000-Yard HG 10-shot records at the time.
    The WSM has less case capacity than the .300 PRC with nearly identical ballistic performance using approx. 10–15% less powder. In a long action using .338 CIP mags, I can take full advantage of the cases capacity by seating the bullet much further out. I am currently using the Berger 215 running approx. 2930fps with ES of 15 and SD around 5. I have no experience with the 300PRC to compare.
    Lapua just came out with 300WSM cases.

    The 300 PRC can run a heavier bullet faster but I believe it loses some of the advantage as a result of the larger ES.

    Using the Nightforce ELR match and their one MOA targets, as reference the 300wsm can (just) stay within the one MOA target size out to 2,100 yards.

    Here is the 300wsm out to 3,000 from MarkandSam you have to have consistent ES/SD to see these results

    Trevor
    Click to expand...
    What powder are you using?

    My smith is putting together a WSM for me now, we're waiting on a reamer to my desired specs, loading 220 Hybrids to the shoulder junction in a long action Fuzion. With h1000 SAAMI has the bullet seated so far into the case that it's impossible to hit 60k PSI, but if you seat long and use the case as it's used in BR, the 215s and 220s should get to 60-65psi with a lower charge than a PRC or Win Mag.

    People saying that it's a Short Action cartridge are like people saying you should run a dasher with 65gr projectiles from a .223 action.

    Jorge Ortiz won the Nightforce ELR with a Norma and 220s at a speed that's pretty close to the WSM and 220s as Mark and Sam After Work got.

    For arguments of ELR "starting" at 1800 - then why bother with a .30 at all? Just go 33XC in the first place. Being that this forum is "ELR - Beyond 1000 Yards" I think the WSM is relevant. I'd personally call 1800 to 2 miles ULR or something. My gun is going to be a NF ELR distances and in gun. If I end up with good access to a ULR range, I'm not doing a .30 anyways.
     
    #24
    Currently RL23 but it is becoming unobtainium.
    I have not tried H1000 or Retumbo
    Have tested H4350 and it more accurate but does not reach the speeds of RL23
    I have only shot 215, discussions about the Berger 220 seem to suggest out of the box reload-ability. i have not tested them, 215's require sorting...
     
    #25
    RL23 seemed to be the magic powder for it. I've only got 2 lbs of it from my .260 AI days, so I'm looking at other stuff. Seems like H4831SC is what a lot of bench resters are using with 215s. I wanted to use Retumbo, but only found H1000 in stock. I'm not familiar enough with the VV powders to know what's at a similar burn rate/case fill ratio to RL23/RL26.
     
    #28
    TheNarrator said:
    Why not 300 PRC?
    Click to expand...
    Too mainstream. Gotta do the WSM for science.

    WSM with 215s/220s is easy to tune. It's similar to asking why not 6 Creedmoor with 112 Match Burners, when a BR/BRA with 105 Hybrids is easier to load for and get good accuracy. I shoot 130 Hybrids out of my 6.5x47 because they grouped better than the 140 hybrids. I might give up some performance at 800+ with the 130s, but if I know what they're doing downrange, it's worth the lower BC to me. It's also worth not having to work as hard at load development. My 6mm x47 took over 100 rounds to find a suitable group for, vs my 6 BRA taking none whatsoever.

    The Bench Rest crowd has been using long loaded WSM for ages, but the tactical/hunting guys have always dismissed it as a short action cartridge. SAAMI spec WSM sucks, but I don't shoot with anyone who uses SAAMI cartridges anyways. Everyone's using a custom barrel based on custom reamers. Say what you will about the benchrest guys, but they're good at finding easy to load for cartridge designs, and rolling with them.

    To me the advantage of PRC is shooting 230+ grain bullets, but at that point, why not Norma? Both the Norma and the WSM do what the PRC can do in the lower weights and higher weights, but arguably do it better.

    If I were serious about the 1800+ stuff, I'd skip PRC and Norma altogether and get a 33XC or similar.
     
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    #29
    rothgyr said:
    Too mainstream. Gotta do the WSM for science.

    WSM with 215s/220s is easy to tune. It's similar to asking why not 6 Creedmoor with 112 Match Burners, when a BR/BRA with 105 Hybrids is easier to load for and get good accuracy. I shoot 130 Hybrids out of my 6.5x47 because they grouped better than the 140 hybrids. I might give up some performance at 800+ with the 130s, but if I know what they're doing downrange, it's worth the lower BC to me. It's also worth not having to work as hard at load development. My 6mm x47 took over 100 rounds to find a suitable group for, vs my 6 BRA taking none whatsoever.

    The Bench Rest crowd has been using long loaded WSM for ages, but the tactical/hunting guys have always dismissed it as a short action cartridge. SAAMI spec WSM sucks, but I don't shoot with anyone who uses SAAMI cartridges anyways. Everyone's using a custom barrel based on custom reamers. Say what you will about the benchrest guys, but they're good at finding easy to load for cartridge designs, and rolling with them.

    To me the advantage of PRC is shooting 230+ grain bullets, but at that point, why not Norma? Both the Norma and the WSM do what the PRC can do in the lower weights and higher weights, but arguably do it better.

    If I were serious about the 1800+ stuff, I'd skip PRC and Norma altogether and get a 33XC or similar.
    Click to expand...
    Ok, i'll allow it.

    ;)
     
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