Varget 6.5 Creedmoor and 140 grain BTHP

natchomamma · Aug 2, 2019

I'm doing some load testing for my new MPA BA 6.5 creedmoor 26" barrel.

I know H3450 is the referred powder, but I'm sitting on 16lbs of Varget and would like to use it up B4 I switch.

For those that have the same or similar setup I'm curious what powder charge did you end up with.

Supersubes · Aug 2, 2019

Just do the right thing and get h4350 or Reloder 16.

natchomamma · Aug 2, 2019

Supersubes said:
Just do the right thing and get h4350 or Reloder 16.

If I had unlimited funds I'd do exactly that. Unfortunately, I do not.

canezach · Aug 2, 2019

The problem with Varget is it's fine for the lighter bullets, like up to the 130s, but it doesn't give you the velocity when you're using the 140s or higher, at least in my experience and that of several others. You can't cram enough Varget into a case to get the bullets to go fast enough to reach their true BC potential before you see serious pressure signs.

Steel head · Aug 2, 2019

Varget will work but don’t try to push it.
Your not gonna get normal speeds without spooky pressures.

natchomamma · Aug 2, 2019

Steel head said:
Varget will work but don’t try to push it.
Your not gonna get normal speeds without spooky pressures.

I loaded 3 at the highest load recommendations based on the Hornaday load book 36.4grains of Varget. The velocity was 2672. I worked up to that load and this had the best group, ES and SD. Do I dare go any higher on the loads? 36.6? I did not see any signs of pressure on the cases from the 36.4 and I'm using Hornaday cases.

BoilerUP · Aug 2, 2019

With 140s and Varget, I'd run it up to 38.0 in 0.3gr increments...I suspect you'll find a safe node between there and where you're at.

As mentioned, 123-130gr bullets will be at less of a velocity disadvantage with Varget vs. H4350 than 140s will.

Supersubes · Aug 2, 2019

natchomamma said:
If I had unlimited funds I'd do exactly that. Unfortunately, I do not.

You said nothing about funds in your post. Many ask the same question, and funds are no issue for them. I stand by my response. Varget is very popular, hock one of those jugs to one of your friends and get some Reloder 16.

Steel head · Aug 2, 2019

natchomamma said:
I loaded 3 at the highest load recommendations based on the Hornaday load book 36.4grains of Varget. The velocity was 2672. I worked up to that load and this had the best group, ES and SD. Do I dare go any higher on the loads? 36.6? I did not see any signs of pressure on the cases from the 36.4 and I'm using Hornaday cases.

You almost certainly can but if accuracy and SD are good then why?
Almost 2700 is a comfortable speed.

Maybe just to see node boundaries.?

natchomamma · Aug 2, 2019

Supersubes said:
You said nothing about funds in your post. Many ask the same question, and funds are no issue for them. I stand by my response. Varget is very popular, hock one of those jugs to one of your friends and get some Reloder 16.

Thats an idea.

natchomamma · Aug 2, 2019

Supersubes said:
You said nothing about funds in your post. Many ask the same question, and funds are no issue for them. I stand by my response. Varget is very popular, hock one of those jugs to one of your friends and get some Reloder 16.

Is one preferred over the other RL16 vs H4350?

Supersubes · Aug 2, 2019

natchomamma said:
Is one preferred over the other RL16 vs H4350?

H4350 has been the standard since the creedmoor came out, and for many years before that in the .260. Rl16 is the new kid, but proving to be very very good. I have quite a bit of both, but run 16 in the 6 and 6.5 creeds these days.

Steel head · Aug 2, 2019

Supersubes said:
H4350 has been the standard since the creedmoor came out, and for many years before that in the .260. Rl16 is the new kid, but proving to be very very good. I have quite a bit of both, but run 16 in the 6 and 6.5 creeds these days.

This.
R16 is pretty awesome.
I’m glad I tried it.

canezach · Aug 3, 2019

I was either the first on here or one of the first to try Reloder 16 in my 6.5 Creedmoor when RL16 was first introduced. I did as lot of testing and found it gave me better velocities at the same charge weight and even better temperature stability. I had 30+ pounds of H4350 that was quickly replaced by RL16

65shootmoor · Aug 3, 2019

I've got that same rifle. If you choose to use the Vargat, pick a safe (within book values) load with the 123-130's and use it to break in your barrel. If you have the MPA barrel, it's going to speed up, level off, then speed up again before tapering off a bit. You can ask the guy who built it at MPA, he told me the same thing. I would not push the velocity while it's doing this, Varget is already wild for heavy bullets. I tried it with lighter bullets (100gr) and ended up pulling over 50 rounds because of pressure. This process will take about 400-500 rounds before it settles completely. Don't exacerbate the issue by pouring on more speed. I switched to 4350 and still watched my load climb to 2860's before coming back down 50-60fps with the same charge.

918v · Aug 3, 2019

All this over a 100FPS difference???

BFD

natchomamma · Aug 3, 2019

65shootmoor said:
I've got that same rifle. If you choose to use the Vargat, pick a safe (within book values) load with the 123-130's and use it to break in your barrel. If you have the MPA barrel, it's going to speed up, level off, then speed up again before tapering off a bit. You can ask the guy who built it at MPA, he told me the same thing. I would not push the velocity while it's doing this, Varget is already wild for heavy bullets. I tried it with lighter bullets (100gr) and ended up pulling over 50 rounds because of pressure. This process will take about 400-500 rounds before it settles completely. Don't exacerbate the issue by pouring on more speed. I switched to 4350 and still watched my load climb to 2860's before coming back down 50-60fps with the same charge.

Have you tested RL16? if so what did you end up with? I purchased a pound of RL16 to play with in my MPA. I have the MPA 6.5 match grade barrel in mine.

I did some testing again today with Varget. I'll post results soon.

natchomamma · Aug 3, 2019

Supersubes said:
H4350 has been the standard since the creedmoor came out, and for many years before that in the .260. Rl16 is the new kid, but proving to be very very good. I have quite a bit of both, but run 16 in the 6 and 6.5 creeds these days.

I picked up a pound of RL16 to play with. Where do you recommend I start my loads and possibly end up?

lte82 · Aug 3, 2019

I ran Varget and 147 ELDs in a 28” bartlein at 2700-2750 FPS. Really accurate. You can easily get over 2800 FPS with R16 but if you don’t mind running 100 FPS slower varget is a good option. Varget is my go-to for 123 scenars & 130 hybrids as well. Try it, I think you’ll like it.

lte82 · Aug 3, 2019

natchomamma said:
I picked up a pound of RL16 to play with. Where do you recommend I start my loads and possibly end up?

Most people I know have ended up with about 41.5 R16. Some guys are running a full grain or so more but approaching 43 gr you will probably see high pressure.

65shootmoor · Aug 3, 2019

natchomamma said:
Have you tested RL16? if so what did you end up with? I purchased a pound of RL16 to play with in my MPA. I have the MPA 6.5 match grade barrel in mine.

I did some testing again today with Varget. I'll post results soon.

I've just started playing with it. With 142 SMK's, I'm getting about 20-25fps more speed with RL16 at the same charge as 4350. I'm also not seeing the same heavy bolt lift as I go up. Apples to apples, I think I can get 60-75fps more with a marginal charge increase. I'm not trying to burn it up either. My 4350 load is already supersonic past the distances I can shoot and I've gotten sub 5 S.D.'s since I started. I only every wanted 2775 and I've easily obtained that, may be able to do the same with less powder with RL16.

The short answer is dump the Varget unless you shoot .223 a lot. 4350 is still better with my 123's than Varget ever was, so I don't see the advantage of gutting it out to find a load.

natchomamma · Aug 3, 2019

Ok so here are my test results from today. I did 5 shot loads starting at 36.0 up to 36.8 in .2gr increments.
The best numbers are groupings from the 36.4 loads. .69" was the best grouping I could do. 36.2 was .89"

Loads 36.6 and 36.8 were over 1" groups

I think I'm gonna call 36.4 good for now.

65shootmoor · Aug 3, 2019

natchomamma said:
Ok so here are my test results from today. I did 5 shot loads starting at 36.0 up to 36.8 in .2gr increments.
The best numbers are groupings from the 36.4 loads. .69" was the best grouping I could do. 36.2 was .89"

Loads 36.6 and 36.8 were over 1" groups

I think I'm gonna call 36.4 good for now.

View attachment 7123197

View attachment 7123198

How far do you plan on shooting this rifle and load?

Supersubes · Aug 3, 2019

natchomamma said:
I picked up a pound of RL16 to play with. Where do you recommend I start my loads and possibly end up?

I ran a test a few months ago where I loaded up identical charges of 16 and H4350 and shot them at distance. The averages for each load were 17 FPS apart. Rl16 max charges tends to be a bit higher than h4350, and it produces more speed. So using h4350 data is safe. My load is 41.5 with a 140 eld in Lapua brass.

natchomamma · Aug 3, 2019

65shootmoor said:
How far do you plan on shooting this rifle and load?

PRS matches. no more than 1,000yards

65shootmoor · Aug 3, 2019

natchomamma said:
PRS matches. no more than 1,000yards

This is just a suggestion, but I'd focus more on the S.D.'s than group size. I've always noticed this trend when someone tests groups, their best tends to fall somewhere just before the middle of all shots taken. It's a natural warm up, then it typically falls apart. Either you test it the same way you did but at a longer distance (300-400yds) or go with best S.D. and rest at distance. A 100 yard group can cover up a lot of error in data and skill.

Rondogg · Aug 3, 2019

$3000 for a rifle, and won't buy a $32.00 jug of H-4350. Like a brand new pickup and putting used tires and wheels on it.

natchomamma · Aug 3, 2019

Rondogg said:
$3000 for a rifle, and won't buy a $32.00 jug of H-4350. Like a brand new pickup and putting used tires and wheels on it.

See post #17

Rumblingdwarf · Aug 8, 2019

I have loaded and shot 1000ish 140 elds using varget in 2 different 6.5 creedmoor barrels. I loaded up to 38 grains in .2 increments to see when I got pressure. At 38 grains I saw slight ejector marks. I backed down to 37.5 and I have shot lots of them. This load works in 2 different barrels just fine. I get 2705 fps from a 24 inch Proof carbon and I get 2780 from a 27 Inch Bartlein. Both barrels group 1/2-3/4 inch. Both barrels were screwed on to an AIAT.

natchomamma · Aug 11, 2019

Rondogg said:
$3000 for a rifle, and won't buy a $32.00 jug of H-4350. Like a brand new pickup and putting used tires and wheels on it.

Rondog what is your magic formula for H4350 in your MPA?

65shootmoor · Aug 17, 2019

natchomamma said:
Rondog what is your magic formula for H4350 in your MPA?

Don't know what he uses, but mine loves anything 42.2-42.4 of 4350 (26" MTU). I've gone a bit further, but it didn't net me enough extra speed to warrant continuing.

Average guy · Aug 21, 2019

natchomamma said:
I picked up a pound of RL16 to play with. Where do you recommend I start my loads and possibly end up?

42.3 grains with a 140 hornady match is my go to

LANCER · Aug 27, 2019

canezach said:
I was either the first on here or one of the first to try Reloder 16 in my 6.5 Creedmoor when RL16 was first introduced. I did as lot of testing and found it gave me better velocities at the same charge weight and even better temperature stability. I had 30+ pounds of H4350 that was quickly replaced by RL16

I'm loving RL16.

To the OP, even though Varget might work, it's probably not optimal for the caliber. There are many who would gladly buy that Varget off of you as it's pretty scarce again. (I have a couple 8lb jugs already for my .308)
To put it in perspective:

I'm a new 6.5 CM reloader and first/only powder I tried gave me a safe, precise load in less than 10 rounds of load development. Actually I run 2 bullets; Berger 140 VLD Target with 41.1 RL-16 and Hornady 140 ELD-M with 41.2 RL-16 yield identical 2845 fps velocities with no pressure out of a 26" Chanlynn barrel. 1/2 MOA out of the ELD-M's and 1/4 MOA out of the VLD Target.
The bergers gave me a 4" group at 1000 yards (4 shots) my first time out beyond 600.

I use GWT LRP brass and Fed 210m primers. GWT brass is thick and tough (apparently military spec) with 3-3.5 gr less volume than Hornady. That brass is on its 4th load with tight pockets still and almost no growth.
If anyone is interested in using this brass, it's only about .29 apiece from sagesreloadingsupply.com but others might carry it also.

coyote591 · Sep 13, 2024

May also +P your chamber and be able to use Varget with 140’s. It will probably reduce pressure spikes when bullet hits lands and may help you achieve the goal. Worth asking someone a lot smarter than me for a second opinion.

R_A_W · Sep 14, 2024

coyote591 said:
May also +P your chamber

nice necro post

+p throat mods fall into the “gimmicky” category. Cutting back your rifling for the first .200-.500” or whatever is might lower initial pressure, but it comes at a price. It’s all fun and games for a few hundred rounds and then all of the sudden your throat erodes .300”. It’s going to reduce the serviceable life & I bet you end up with a really wonky leade

Just use an appropriate powder or switch cartridges

Carlock’s patent for anyone interested

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Varget 6.5 Creedmoor and 140 grain BTHP

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