Is this a carbon ring???

Baron23 · Jul 29, 2021

Well, yes...its a ring and its black so I'm assuming carbon but is this what people are talking about when they have concern/performance issues resulting from a carbon ring?

I'm guessing that the ring forms just past where the neck of the case stops...that is, right at the beginning of the free bore? Right?

Sorry my pic isn't that good...I need to experiment with this less expensive bore scope (Teslong) and see if I can up the quality. But this ring is showing at a point that appears to me to be back from from the little constriction which I assume is where the neck ends....right???

Thank you

jcmullis2 · Jul 29, 2021

It doesn’t look bad to me but you can’t always see a problem with your scope. If you’re having accuracy issues and you have reason to suspect the barrel it probably is.

KZP · Jul 29, 2021

Swirl a few patches in there with some Boretech carbon eliminator. It will tell you pretty quickly.

JBoomhauer · Jul 29, 2021

It’s hard to see what’s going on with that picture. I Don’t see any rifling, Is that just a really rough chamber with some chips weld or scoring through it?

Baron23 · Jul 29, 2021

JBoomhauer said:
I Don’t see any rifling,

Rifling starts further down the bore than where this pic was taken.

Baron23 said:
But this ring is showing at a point that appears to me to be back from from the little constriction which I assume is where the neck ends....right???

JBoomhauer · Jul 29, 2021

I can’t make out where you are at in the chamber with that photo, but it should be .100-.200 back from the rifling depending on the freebore.

jcmullis2 · Jul 30, 2021

Could tell more if you can post a series of 4-5 pics of the area from the end of the chambering to the rifling. After that transition area is where carbon rings are typically seen. However I wouldn’t go scrubbing with abrasives just because it’s got some carbon. If it’s shooting bad and your sure it’s not something else then you’re probably not gonna hurt anything. Just be careful with your barrel because over zealous cleaning can ruin one.

Baron23 · Jul 30, 2021

JBoomhauer said:
I can’t make out where you are at in the chamber with that photo, but it should be .100-.200 back from the rifling depending on the freebore.

Yeah, my pics do suck. I’ll see if I can get something better.

Thanks for taking time to reply.

Jabot · Jul 30, 2021

The testlong I got came with 3 different mirrors. I tried all 3 to find the best one. Also tried the set screw in different positions, this seamed to help also. Good luck

Baron23 · Jul 30, 2021

Jabot said:
The testlong I got came with 3 different mirrors. I tried all 3 to find the best one. Also tried the set screw in different positions, this seamed to help also. Good luck

Thanks. I’ve screwed w focus a bit but am going to try the oblong mirror next. I’ll get there but yeah, current quality of my pics is no bueno.

jcmullis2 · Jul 30, 2021

Jabot said:
The testlong I got came with 3 different mirrors. I tried all 3 to find the best one. Also tried the set screw in different positions, this seamed to help also. Good luck

I was thinking about buying one of those with the 26” rod but the price seems too good to be true. Which testlong would you recommend.

Jabot · Jul 30, 2021

The that connects to your phone. The image quality is better with phones than the testlong that comes with there monitor. Mines is the one with there monitor and it does work, my friend has the one that connects to his phone its definitely an improvement.

djarecke · Jul 30, 2021

Just use some CLR on a 45 caliber brush and it will come out in about 10 seconds.

spife7980 · Jul 30, 2021

The carbon ring that effects the bullets engagement with the lands will be after chamber neck ends, not in between the case neck and the chamber neck. That’s just a dirty chamber, and not that dirty from the looks of it.

Baron23 · Jul 30, 2021

spife7980 said:
The carbon ring that effects the bullets engagement with the lands will be after chamber neck ends, not in between the case neck and the chamber neck. That’s just a dirty chamber, and not that dirty from the looks of it.

Thanks my friend. You have been very helpful to me on a number of occasions.

My pics suck ( working on that haha) but where the chamber has that small lip, which should be where the neck ends or close to it, is def forward of that “ring”.

I’m planning to soak a mop with BoreTech Carbon Remover and let it sit for a bit as it won’t hurt the barrel.

I know CLR seems to work for many, but I’m not anxious to put that stuff in my chamber.

Thanks again.

spife7980 · Jul 30, 2021

I bet if you stick a fired case back in the chamber and run the bore scope in from the muzzle end you’ll see the lines match up with the end of the case.

Baron23 · Jul 30, 2021

spife7980 said:
I bet if you stick a fired case back in the chamber and run the bore scope in from the muzzle end you’ll see the lines match up with the end of the case.

Outstanding idea. Should have thought of that.

But that’s not the where the dreaded carbon ring would located, right. Just want to make sure I understand. The “bad” ring would further toward the muzzle in the lead?

spife7980 · Jul 30, 2021

Yes. A “carbon ring” will leave marks on the chambered bullet where it’s interfering with it.

On a 6mm the case neck will be something like .267 wide with a chamber of .269 at the general tightest. The bullet is only .243 wide. It would take a shit load of build up (the round wouldn’t chamber far before this) for the case neck mess to interfere with the bullet.

The free bore will be something like .2435. Freebore is juuuuuust barely wider than the bullet.
Loose carbon gets blasted off each time but like making diamonds, a bit remains and gets heated and pressured and hardened and eventually half a thou of hard ass shit that doesn’t get blasted off builds up and touches the bullet. If the bullets getting touched and doesn’t have its momentum and running start before engraving into the lands pressures spike.

JLP.Payette · Jul 30, 2021

This is what I see for carbon ring when I noticed pressure increasing. Its appearing at the end of the case neck. I attached pics before and after cleaning.

BuLLet · Jul 30, 2021

Can you reward him with some peanuts???

Baron23 said:
Thanks my friend. You have been very helpful to me on a number of occasions.

Baron23 · Jul 30, 2021

BuLLet said:
Can you reward him with some peanuts???

hahaha...like this?

@spife7980 , et al
Ok, got some more pics but I think my Teslong is defective. Note in the pic I posted originally in this thread that you can see the ribbed stem of the side view mirror and when I moved the mirror out further to get better focus, it all got a bit worse. I have talked to Teslong, they asked for pics, the CS rep said "dunno what this is, this should not be happening, I'm escalating to our engineer". So, in the pics below, please excuse the continued awful quality. They are also kind of dark as the higher the lighting the worse the symptoms of the issue.

I tried the empty cartridge and scope from the muzzle but with a 25" barrel and a muzzle brake, the Teslong didn't reach far enough. Its a self-timing Pierson's brake and I can take it off (supposedly), but I have a clinic coming up in 7 weeks or so and do NOT want to fuck up this rifle. Be my luck that I would twist the barrel loose trying to get the brake off. Well, if that did happened, then there must be some bad juju in how barrel was torqued on so its not a very imminent danger, I think.

this is the free bore/throat. Its clean

Here is step down where the neck should end (more or less) and it is also clean from there forward into the throat.

Here is the first "ring" which is a bit back from where the chamber indicates the end of the neck. Now, I did shoot some reloads trimmed with my friend's Gerard which was set for 1.90" instead of SAAMI 1.91" (I beleive). And, it really ain't much to worry about at all.

Here are the darker rings I first posted and indeed they are further back in the chamber yet and I suspect you are exactly right that its just a bit of a dirty chamber as its not where near where the chamber indicates should be the end of the neck.

By the by, its easy to find the step down in the chamber for the end of the neck as I can feel it with the Teslong probe. Easy peasy and Robert's your Mother's Brother (sorry, last job before I retired was for an UK company....a few British-isms stuck with me haha)

So, I think this is showing that I don't have any immediate carbon ring problems to address. Are we agreed on that with this new data?

Cheers (really the only British-ism I spout regularly as it really is useful and beats the hell out of long goodbys)

JBoomhauer · Jul 30, 2021

That’s the spot. I would not consider that a carbon ring by any means, just a little bit dirty. Nothing to be concerned about.

jcmullis2 · Jul 30, 2021

I think my father and his generation picked that up in ww2 because “Bob is your uncle” and “sorted out” was common growing up in the south.
Gunsmiths love borescopes but they’re limited in predicting accuracy. My old smith told me he used to leave his bore scope out so customers could look at their own barrels. He told me he sold more barrel jobs that way. It’s easy to see what you want to see. You go looking for a problem in a place that’s contained explosions and extreme pressures and it’s easy to find something that looks bad.
If I understand correctly, you’d have a difficult time getting it rebarreled before the clinic you’re scheduled to attend. Basically you’re stuck using it for the time being. I’d clean it like normal and if it still doesn’t shoot the way you like try something a little stronger. Otherwise get a prefit barrel or pay the rush fee to get one spun up for that action is all I can come up with.
You didn’t actually say it shot bad. Did you discover the issue in the barrel after inspecting it with the bore scope? Or, was there a problem with the rifle at all? Describe the problem? Marks in your barrel aren’t in themselves a problem. There’s people who rarely if ever clean their rifles and openly brag about their sub moa accuracy.

Baron23 · Jul 30, 2021

jcmullis2 said:
I think my father and his generation picked that up in ww2 because “Bob is your uncle” and “sorted out” was common growing up in the south.
Gunsmiths love borescopes but they’re limited in predicting accuracy. My old smith told me he used to leave his bore scope out so customers could look at their own barrels. He told me he sold more barrel jobs that way. It’s easy to see what you want to see. You go looking for a problem in a place that’s contained explosions and extreme pressures and it’s easy to find something that looks bad.
If I understand correctly, you’d have a difficult time getting it rebarreled before the clinic you’re scheduled to attend. Basically you’re stuck using it for the time being. I’d clean it like normal and if it still doesn’t shoot the way you like try something a little stronger. Otherwise get a prefit barrel or pay the rush fee to get one spun up for that action is all I can come up with.
You didn’t actually say it shot bad. Did you discover the issue in the barrel after inspecting it with the bore scope? Or, was there a problem with the rifle at all? Describe the problem? Marks in your barrel aren’t in themselves a problem. There’s people who rarely if ever clean their rifles and openly brag about their sub moa accuracy.

Thanks for the story about British stuff coming back from the war.

No problem. Was just looking and thought this might be an opportunity to learn what a carbon ring does or doesn’t look like. All good and thanks again.

Jabot · Jul 30, 2021

jcmullis2 said:
I think my father and his generation picked that up in ww2 because “Bob is your uncle” and “sorted out” was common growing up in the south.
Gunsmiths love borescopes but they’re limited in predicting accuracy. My old smith told me he used to leave his bore scope out so customers could look at their own barrels. He told me he sold more barrel jobs that way. It’s easy to see what you want to see. You go looking for a problem in a place that’s contained explosions and extreme pressures and it’s easy to find something that looks bad.
If I understand correctly, you’d have a difficult time getting it rebarreled before the clinic you’re scheduled to attend. Basically you’re stuck using it for the time being. I’d clean it like normal and if it still doesn’t shoot the way you like try something a little stronger. Otherwise get a prefit barrel or pay the rush fee to get one spun up for that action is all I can come up with.
You didn’t actually say it shot bad. Did you discover the issue in the barrel after inspecting it with the bore scope? Or, was there a problem with the rifle at all? Describe the problem? Marks in your barrel aren’t in themselves a problem. There’s people who rarely if ever clean their rifles and openly brag about their sub moa accuracy.

Accuracy as a subjective topic. What some people call accurate, other would not even consider shooting. And sub moa could mean a barrel that shoots in the .8 range, this would not be an accurate rig in my humble opinion. A gun that shoots sub half moa is way more interesting. Most factory rifles shoot moa, custom guns should shoot in the .3-.4 . That's would be considered accurate. Just my 2 cents

jcmullis2 · Jul 31, 2021

I suspect in the right bore scope in the right hands long enough could be used to predict barrel performance but it would take some serious time to understand what you’re seeing. Just saying

jcmullis2 · Jul 31, 2021

reubenski said:
I guess you'll know when you get there. If don't, don't knock it.

I’m definitely not knocking it. I was trying to see a problem with his barrel and didn’t. He said he couldn’t screw it up because he had a upcoming clinic. Therefore, I was attempting to be a voice of reason. He finally admitted that he was just learning how to use a bore scope. If a person wants to spend their time looking through a bore scope more power to them. If you think you can predict the accuracy of a rifle with a bore scope just let me know how much you’re willing to bet. I’ll take that money.

Baron23 · Jul 31, 2021

@reubenski @jcmullis2

Hi guys - of corse you can debate anything you want, it’s a free country.

But since I was referenced, let me be more clear, perhaps.

I have read many posts about the dreaded carbon ring and two of my buddies here indeed had one and it was causing issues. @GBMaryland pulled his barrel to get at it w…I don’t think CLR…maybe BoreTech…and really needed to work it to get it out.

So, I just wondered if I was developing one in this gun and, if so, what does it look like and where would it be if it was there. If I was getting one, then I wanted to know that and get on it before it grew, caused issues, and became very hard to get out. I think this was reasonable, you may differ.

I bought this borescope last Jan and just recently got it out to use it. I’m not in the habit of scoping a barrel and losing it over very minor imperfections that are not a problem and are common on any barrel. The rifle shot well and still does and now I know where to look and what is/is not the hated ring of doom. Haha.

I do appreciate very much everyone’s time and input to my education.

As we seem to agree, I don’t have anything to worry about, no ring of any significance, and I now know what I’m looking at in the chamber so to me this was a win.

Thanks again and cheers.

jcmullis2 · Jul 31, 2021

reubenski said:
"If you think you can predict the accuracy of a rifle with a bore scope just let me know how much you’re willing to bet. I’ll take that money"

Again. You don't understand. So you are knocking it out of ego

Nothing wrong with debating the benefits of a tool.
I’m not sure what it is you’re referring to that I don’t understand. If you’re referring to the quest for knowledge then I understand it just fine. I also understand a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. That’s the reason for my words of caution. I agree that bore scopes are a great tool. I just don’t believe anyone can tell how a barrel will shoot from inspecting the bore. I’ve asked several people who advocate the use of bore scopes and can’t get anyone to take the bet. Yes they have their uses but predicting performance isn’t one of them.

jcmullis2 · Jul 31, 2021

My goodness, I’m glad you got that off your chest. I think the reason you challenged what I said is you misunderstood what I posted. It is now and has been my position that bore scopes are a good tool. I even said that. I don’t know how you missed it. Something I said must have pissed you off and you went right by that. That had to be it because I never mentioned the devil either. Unless you’re just an asshole that can’t read.
I’m pretty sure we’re on the same page about the usefulness of bore scopes and their limitations.
I suppose I should say some ugly shit since you went there but it’d serve no purpose. There’s absolutely nothing anyone could say to you that’d make a difference.

John_in_WYO · Jul 31, 2021

Baron23 said:
Easy peasy and Robert's your Mother's Brother (sorry, last job before I retired was for an UK company....a few British-isms stuck with me haha)

And ‘ere I thought it was “Bob’s your Uncle.”

Blimey.

GBMaryland · Aug 1, 2021

The way I got the carbon ring out of that Tikka with the OEM barrel that I’d been using with the supressor:

Chamer brush for an AR10, and the carbon eliminator from Bore Tech. Scrubbed the crap out of it…

The AR10 brush will not leave the camber past the carbon area… easy peezy.

Baron23 · Aug 1, 2021

GBMaryland said:
The way I got the carbon ring out of that Tikka with the OEM barrel that I’d been using with the supressor:

Chamer brush for an AR10, and the carbon eliminator from Bore Tech. Scrubbed the crap out of it…

The AR10 brush will not leave the camber past the carbon area… easy peezy.

You had the barrel off, right?

jcmullis2 · Aug 1, 2021

reubenski said:
This

Now show me where you said borescopes were a good tool.

BTW...."My goodness".....?

It’s in my reply at 3:18pm yesterday. Like I figured, just a misunderstanding. That’s usually how these things go. I knew it because I was in agreement with what you were saying outside the personal stuff which had to come from you being angry. I guess you’re just passionate about your bore scopes and that’s cool. If that’s your thing, I mean, hey who am I to judge.

Baron23 · Aug 1, 2021

joking

And thanks again for all the help and input, guys.

jcmullis2 · Aug 1, 2021

Baron23 said:
joking

And thanks again for all the help and input, guys.

Now that’s funny

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