Sk 22lr spec

TIMMYTOY · Aug 2, 2021

Has anyone had access to SK factory spec numbers on what is acceptable for ES,SD numbers?
Reason for asking is if Red rifle match,Long rifle match and hv match are “match Ammo” why are velocity so different within their respective unit.
example: shooting sk red I have sd of 7ish long range 5ish and hv 15ish
why SK hv “match“is not in single digits velocities are all over the place?
If they can get Long range velocity very close why not hv seems like proper powder,bullet and case the velocity should be the same in theory.
What I have experienced and read on the hide and internet everyone has the same results hv is not match ammo?
50yds shoots great past 100 not good due to velocity spread not transonic issue

justin amateur · Aug 2, 2021

If the word "Match" is on the label, it ain't....

AutoMatch, Gold Medal Match, Pistol Match, Rifle Match, Special Match
Those are intended to influence you to buy their ammo, not guarantee results.

Think about it...do the true competition grade labels have the word "match" on 'em?

Midas+, X-Act, R50, Tenex, and even then you still have to lot test to find quality cartridges.

TIMMYTOY · Aug 2, 2021

I would agree..
SK does advertise that the hv is not your plinking hv ammo and meets the disciplines of PRS and NRL quality.
You would expect the hv to be inline with long rang or rifle match.

justin amateur · Aug 2, 2021

Based on conversations with folks who actually shoot benchrest 50 yards competitively,
when testing 22lr ammo, SD is not the number they're after, it's the ES.
If the ES is greater than 30 fps, it's not good enough for precision shooting.
The Green Monster is 25 shots for score, if even 2 shots from the box of 50
are outside that 30 fps spread, you've likely lost the match.
The majority of 22lr I've tried exceed 40 fps ES, just not adequate for precision work.

littlepod · Aug 2, 2021

TIMMYTOY said:
I would agree..
SK does advertise that the hv is not your plinking hv ammo and meets the disciplines of PRS and NRL quality.
You would expect the hv to be inline with long rang or rifle match.

It is better than shooting remington golden bullet. And also lot to lot can vary as well and how it shoots out of your rifle. My long range match was 12sd out of my rifle. I've had 2 lots of center-x, one with an SD of 5 and one with an SD of 10 out of my rifle. It's all pretty random.

I feel ammo is almost always priced accordingly. HV Match is $6.20 a box. Long Range Match is $8, and Rifle Match is $7.30. So you get what you pay for.

22lfb · Aug 2, 2021

justin amateur said:
Based on conversations with folks who actually shoot benchrest 50 yards competitively,
when testing 22lr ammo, SD is not the number they're after, it's the ES.
If the ES is greater than 30 fps, it's not good enough for precision shooting.
The Green Monster is 25 shots for score, if even 2 shots from the box of 50
are outside that 30 fps spread, you've likely lost the match.
The majority of 22lr I've tried exceed 40 fps ES, just not adequate for precision work.

Thank you!! I have always wondered why a lot of people seem so obsessed with the SD and sort of "disregard" the ES! Though I guess in the end both numbers combined are what makes a good ammunition.

Personally I don't do a lot of chrony testing, I always go for what my ammo does on paper.

grauhanen · Aug 2, 2021

ES and SD can vary considerably with different lots of SK products. These are produced as a more affordable "entry level" match-type .22LR ammo.

ES is important it's not necessarily more important than SD. Good lots match ammo will have similar ES but what can distinguish one from another is SD. The lower the SD, the more likely that any random number of rounds from a box -- say five for a five shot group -- will be closer in MV to each other than a box with higher SD.

To put it another way, the lower the SD, more of the ammo in a batch will be closer to the average MV more of the ammo. A higher SD means that more individual rounds will have an MV closer to the lowest and highest ends of the extreme spread.

Of course there's a catch. Neither ES nor SD in themselves will be a guarantor of ammo performance. In other words, there's more to ammo behavior than muzzle velocity.

TIMMYTOY · Aug 2, 2021

Yes need to look at Es and Sd numbers they go hand in hand.
Each round has to be very close to the same velocity to have any chance to hit small targets at 100 yards plus with consistency.

justin amateur · Aug 3, 2021

Has anyone had access to SK factory spec numbers on what is acceptable for ES,SD numbers?

I've contacted SK/Lapua, Eley and RWS to ask about lot grading procedures.
What mv spread and variations they look for. Was told it's statistical sampling
from each production batch fired through multiple fixture mounted barreled receivers.
Results from that testing determine how the run gets labeled.
Average mv ends up on the box and target results determine if it's labeled as best, second best, practice or bulk.
Exact procedure used was not available as it is considered proprietary information.
From my own chronograph numbers, an ES of 40 fps and under is what gets labeled as best.
40 to 50 fps is second best, 50 to 70 fps is practice and above 70 fps ES is bulk.

At 50 yards an ES of 40 fps produces about 0.25 inch of vertical spread.
That's about half moa before factoring in wind and shooter skill.
At 100 yards that same 40 fps ES produces an inch of vertical, at 200 yards it's 4 inches.

SD is approximately what you can expect from 2 out of 3 shots.
Not good enough for my OCD.

ES is the number I look at from each box of 50.
What are the worst two cartridges producing.
In a 50 shot match off the bench, those two shots will make or break you.

Ballistic Calculator GunData.org

Thanks for using the external ballistic calculator from GunData.org that accurately details all aspects of the bullets trajectory the millisecond it leaves the guns barrel.

gundata.org

TIMMYTOY · Aug 3, 2021

I checked my past data SK Red rifle match has Es of 17, Long range ES of 11 and hv Es of 67.

justin amateur · Aug 3, 2021

How many shots recorded from y'er typical sample Tim?

I normally record 50 as my typical data entry.
Same for group size, 50 shots at a single aim point.

5 or 10 shots doesn't satisfy my OCD.

I like lots and lots of numbers.

TIMMYTOY · Aug 3, 2021

I do 20 rounds and also have buddies shoot the same lot out of their guns to do a broad study to see if numbers coincide which velocity maybe higher or lower but ES is close to the same percentage.
Next week I will do a study on another lot of HV and on red rifle match.

308pirate · Aug 4, 2021

TIMMYTOY said:
Has anyone had access to SK factory spec numbers on what is acceptable for ES,SD numbers?

I'm gonna bet a hundo that the chances of some random forum guy knowing that proprietary information are between slim and none.

tomcatfan · Aug 4, 2021

justin amateur said:
If the word "Match" is on the label, it ain't....

AutoMatch, Gold Medal Match, Pistol Match, Rifle Match, Special Match
Those are intended to influence you to buy their ammo, not guarantee results.

Think about it...do the true competition grade labels have the word "match" on 'em?

Midas+, X-Act, R50, Tenex, and even then you still have to lot test to find quality cartridges.

I’ve heard this before and frankly it’s a little silly in my experience. So far the best groups I’ve gotten from my Savage BTVS and Bergara B-14 came from ammo with ”match” on the box.
Sk Long Range Match has given me better SDs and groups when compared to eley target, tenex, or Midas +. Wolf match extra has performed better in my savage than any eley ammo I’ve tried, even tenex. My goto ammo for both my rimfire rifles have the word ”match” on the box.

justin amateur · Aug 4, 2021

I like it when opinions differ.
Especially when discussing rimfire and consistent accuracy.

For starters, I don't consider 5 shot groups to be the correct method for proving accuracy.
Why? Those groups wander around point of aim, hiding what is actually taking place.
Build the target aggregate, and what was once a eye-catching collection of sub moa clusters
becomes a double or triple sized spread showing how much variation in trajectories
has actually occurred.

Compare the 5 shot group average size to the 25 shot aggregate size.
100 yards, in a testing tunnel, from 5 different runs...

25 at 100

Yeah, I know, there's an ammo shortage. :rolleyes: How can I waste valuable 22lr on the same old same old. Because I won't have to fire a single shot, it's already been done. All I have to do is some target analysis. It'll take a little bit to get this completed, but not 2-1/2 years like the 50...

www.rimfirecentral.com

Instead of groups, shoot for score or send a large number of shots at a single aimpoint,
then compare results. For some reason, 50 seems to be a nice round number.

Try shooting 50 shots at 50 dots at 50 yards and look at the results.
Is the ammunition capable of hitting where you are aiming.
Not a cluster ending up a half inch left or right or down from point of aim.
But actually attempting to hit where y'er aiming.
Think USBR Green Monster, twice, then compare the results.
Compare "match" ammo to competition quality ammo, there is a visible difference.

Small test samples allow for incorrect conclusions.
Robust sample sizes minimize those statistical anomolies.

Opposing views if you will....I enjoy the discussion.

tomcatfan · Aug 4, 2021

justin amateur said:
I like it when opinions differ.
Especially when discussing rimfire and consistent accuracy.

For starters, I don't consider 5 shot groups to be the correct method for proving accuracy.
Why? Those groups wander around point of aim, hiding what is actually taking place.
Build the target aggregate, and what was once a eye-catching collection of sub moa clusters
becomes a double or triple sized spread showing how much variation in trajectories
has actually occurred.

Compare the 5 shot group average size to the 25 shot aggregate size.
100 yards, in a testing tunnel, from 5 different runs...

25 at 100

Yeah, I know, there's an ammo shortage. :rolleyes: How can I waste valuable 22lr on the same old same old. Because I won't have to fire a single shot, it's already been done. All I have to do is some target analysis. It'll take a little bit to get this completed, but not 2-1/2 years like the 50...

www.rimfirecentral.com

Instead of groups, shoot for score or send a large number of shots at a single aimpoint,
then compare results. For some reason, 50 seems to be a nice round number.

Try shooting 50 shots at 50 dots at 50 yards and look at the results.
Is the ammunition capable of hitting where you are aiming.
Not a cluster ending up a half inch left or right or down from point of aim.
But actually attempting to hit where y'er aiming.
Think USBR Green Monster, twice, then compare the results.
Compare "match" ammo to competition quality ammo, there is a visible difference.

Small test samples allow for incorrect conclusions.
Robust sample sizes minimize those statistical anomolies.

Opposing views if you will....I enjoy the discussion.

Agreed, for me accuracy in my rimfire rifles are gauged based on IBS 50yd rimfire targets. I’ve shot my best score in my B14r with sk LR match ammo. I got a 244-3x. The best I could do with tenex or Midas + was a 242.

justin amateur · Aug 4, 2021

TCF, was it just that one box, or has it been repeatable?
I've had one box wonders that the next box from the same brick couldn't equal.
Showed mv spread and odd strays....irritating.

tomcatfan · Aug 4, 2021

justin amateur said:
TCF, was it just that one box, or has it been repeatable?
I've had one box wonders that the next box from the same brick couldn't equal.
Showed mv spread and odd strays....irritating.

I’ve gotten great results over 2 different lots as well as different boxes for the sk lr match. I have seen what you‘re talking about with gecco ammo though. Amazing results with 1 box, next box not so much.

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