FALs

DrDeath said:

Anyone here have a Fal? Or a DSA version? How accurate are they say out to 300yards?

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I have a FN and it will shoot just under 3 inch 5 shot groups as long as you put the first round in the dirt at 300 yards thats with my reloads . I cant tell you if the DSA rifle is the same quality .

DrDeath said:

Anyone here have a Fal? Or a DSA version? How accurate are they say out to 300yards?

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9” at 750 with ancient 147 surp

All those I have seen and shot are pretty ammo sensitive. In other guns (bolt gun, M17) inaccurate ammo is a little more inaccurate, but in the FAL, I can miss the target entirely with the really bad Indian or Russian stuff.

But with good milsurp M80 clone stuff (Saltech, Hirtenberger, Malaysian, Australian) it's a battle rifle at least. All of them should score body shots — if you do your part — to 600 and headshots to 300. I have done both many times. Not floated so the built in bipod is a kickstand. Adjust the gas right or else, but when adjusted it goes bang every time, scrupulously reliable gun. Not a good suppressor host for reasons I don't quite get, sadly. The ARMS top cover is /excellent/ if you want to mount optics to it, but the gun generally is great if you like irons. They are not railed sorts of guns; if you insist on rails and modern stocks don't get one. They were issued to EVERYONE so a zillion legit surplus options for things like iron sights, may ways to personalize to your taste short of rails and stuff. If you go iron: have a machinist replace or turn down the front post. Works the same to adjust, but finer aiming point.

DSA guns... will generally shoot but they are sorta wrong IMO. Not loving the way they are built, their parts, and they are not all backwards compatible with actual Belgian or the various milsurp rebuilds over here. StG58s are common, many are Century builds but it's a solid design and esp with proper parts will run forever. For another DSA thing: their receiver scope mount is not always great but is massively bulkier than the ARMS one and has visible screws; booooo! They just aren't trying very hard. Prices are up there now for all so I'd get used and see if you can get into a milsurp kit gun (you can't likely afford an original FN factory semi-auto gun, think "pre-ban" prices for obscure black rifles).

Read up a LOT to learn the basics before diving in and looking for guns for sale much less buying one. Enough variation that learning FIRST is critical as many things cannot be changed out later. Metric vs inch, what is different on the para (plenty!) and that the upper is the serialized part (so you can change the stock, but not the barrel length in one s/n). Oh, and rear locking so hack jobs (and YES some DSA factory guns I have seen) can have bad locking blocks so you need to know a few things to check for when buying if you can inspect.

https://www.falfiles.com/ is the forum for these. Larry FA (or FALarry, etc) is a guy who has a huge stock of original parts but... is a bit of an issue to get ahold of sometimes. It's calling or emailing once you get the secret handshake to do that. But don't fret and think you can't get parts anymore.

I messed around with a friends he was trying to sell me for a couple weeks. It was a century rebuild, with an Imbel gear receiver. It ran fine, but shot unacceptably terrible.

I had a dsa a while and it was a good rifle. A little heavy, decent 1 to 2 MOA accuracy. While I think that modern gas guns are better in most areas, i think its more than serviceable rifle, I really like the old world machining. DSA does make an precision FAL. Not sure how it compares to new rifles in the price range but it should be ok, and different if thats what your after.

I guess i lucked out i got a Belgium FN works good with DSA scope mount no complaints with them i find it as good a shooter as a premium 308 AR

3-5MOA is the norm depending on ammo. If you care about group size in your semiauto then you want an AR15 type rifle. If you want an FN FAL then you buy an FN FAL.

BCP said:

3-5MOA is the norm depending on ammo. If you care about group size in your semiauto then you want an AR15 type rifle. If you want an FN FAL then you buy an FN FAL.

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I call bs 3-5 moa for a AK SKS im good with that FN 2 moa ball ammo

They vary a lot but 2 moa is near the lowest consistent accuracy you get with the FAL. And to be clear: I like the FAL. Don't own a G3 or large frame AR now. But it is what it is and is important to not fool ourselves.

All battle rifles are about the same, as their baseline and requirements. In the mid 80s the Germans did a great test maching resting simply everything (to gather data for requirements for what would become g36) and ALL the guns tested were the same mechanical accuraccy. Yes, even AK, SKS. Even M16. They have differences in effective accuracy based on point blank distance (how much you need to estimate range accurately) ergonomics, ease of sight usage, etc but all are the same.

Now, that's the mean (average). Some can at the edges be MUCH less accurate (reliable reports of 14 moa from the factory M14s!) or much more accurate. Some is how much a system is explored and understood. The current state of the AR is only partly design (and a lot of that is an accident, we're lucky!) and a hell of a lot broad issue and a bunch of different organizations and clever individuals figuring out how it works to build or tweak it better and better then sharing that information.

FAL is only frontline with a handful of units anymore, so much knowledge that existed for building accurate versions has gone away, and you couldn't get anyway because it was an internal document in Portugese

shoobe01 said:

They vary a lot but 2 moa is near the lowest consistent accuracy you get with the FAL. And to be clear: I like the FAL. Don't own a G3 or large frame AR now. But it is what it is and is important to not fool ourselves.

All battle rifles are about the same, as their baseline and requirements. In the mid 80s the Germans did a great test maching resting simply everything (to gather data for requirements for what would become g36) and ALL the guns tested were the same mechanical accuraccy. Yes, even AK, SKS. Even M16. They have differences in effective accuracy based on point blank distance (how much you need to estimate range accurately) ergonomics, ease of sight usage, etc but all are the same.

Now, that's the mean (average). Some can at the edges be MUCH less accurate (reliable reports of 14 moa from the factory M14s!) or much more accurate. Some is how much a system is explored and understood. The current state of the AR is only partly design (and a lot of that is an accident, we're lucky!) and a hell of a lot broad issue and a bunch of different organizations and clever individuals figuring out how it works to build or tweak it better and better then sharing that information.

FAL is only frontline with a handful of units anymore, so much knowledge that existed for building accurate versions has gone away, and you couldn't get anyway because it was an internal document in Portugese

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14 moa M14 ??? You eating catnip??

Nope. This from OEFII-ish when we suddenly decided we need 7.62 rifles, so first were just taking old stock that had been kept around, later did the EBR stocks etc. Average accuracy was worse than they expected when they unpacked and started messing with then, like 3-4 moa (as discussed above), typical "bad" ones were more like 6-7 but a few at 10-12, one at fully 14. Reliable, but you can't hit anything with it.

These folks shared their experience of learning to HATE the M14 because the accurate ones wouldn't stay accurate etc. a lot just straight up broke, and a good number were uselessly inaccurate. They didn't /give/ anyone these bad ones to carry in the field, and tried to give out the most accurate ones, keep them accurate, but the shotgun pattern ones sure did make it out of the factory in 1959 like this! Good enough for government issue

I get about 1.5 - 2 MOA out of my DSA, with match ammo. About 3-4 with surplus in the DSA and my other parts kit FALs. It's a battle rifle, reliable and rugged as hell, but it's not a precision tool. The tilting bolt is not as good as the rotating bolt of the AR design in that regard, but I would say it's a more crud tolerant design.

The FAL files once had the story of old filthy, with went over 10,000 with no cleaning, a broken piston spring and much other abuse, and still shot and cycled reliably. The fact the African nations used it alongside the AK for decades is telling.

I would take a FAL over an M-14 for a battle rifle any day, and an AR platform over both if I want a precision gas rifle.

I built an Imbel parts kit on a Century receiver about 15 years ago. Shoots IPSC silhouettes out to 500 with my M80-ish handloads (Hornady 150FMJBT & 43gr 4895 in LC66 brass). Reliable as others have said. I can run any decent ammo in it, completely dry or soaking wet. I have thought about making a para, just never got around to it.

The earliest DSAs were almost entirely StG58 parts, even barrels. Later they bought the tooling from Steyr. The first DSAs were some nice rifles. When the Steyr barrels ran out, they bought barrels from Badger. I had one that shot a little under 2 MOA with Austrian surplus and that was the most accurate example I've seen.