Homesteading: sloped land or flat?

Naaman · Sep 27, 2021

Hi everyone.

I've got some cash to buy some land on which I would like to slowly start building a homestead. My area is high desert of Arizona (about 5000 feet elevation). Lots of Junipers and other shrubs/ground plants (not much in the way of tall trees, though there are some).

I'm looking at different pieces of land with varying degrees of slope. Obviously, I can grade the land to some extent. Some of my options are more or less flat.

The goal is to grow a few fruits and vegetable, and raise some small animals (chickens, goats, and/or pigs, etc).

What is the minimum parcel size I should look for, and what "terrain features" are most useful or should be avoided?

Thanks for the replies.

Im2bent · Sep 27, 2021

Can't help other than be wary of areas prone to flash floods.

HeavyAssault · Sep 27, 2021

Parcel size: What can you afford compared to what "features" it offers??

I'd buy 50 acres if it gives me more options over 200 acres. Is the land you want accessible?? Easements are a good thing, you just need to be 100% sure of what/where they are. Do you have access to water or are you restricted?? Making food and livestock grow means you need water.

I'd get out to any parcels you know are available. Walk around them, study the land, look at any sign that shows how the features drive water to move. Flash floods in a flat area could wipe out what you build, build on the wrong spot on a hill water could wash out your footings.

Study your area, go see everything for yourself, never take anyone's word if you can help it, take EVERY possible second to research the property as best you can, do your diligence 1000% over.

stefan73 · Sep 27, 2021

You can ask USDA about the soil types and recommendations for the areas you are looking at. Water is going to be a big point of concern for you, because that also helps support the carrying capacity of the land you are looking at.

DarnYankeeUSMC · Sep 27, 2021

Soil samples and water testing are going to be important. If you don't have water or decent soil you will fail.
Raising animals requires additional food and water for those animals. Depending on the number of animals it's going to require equipment. So fuel for the equipment is necessary also. Homesteading is a full time job from dawn until dark. It's not an easy job.

Naaman · Sep 27, 2021

Thanks, everyone.

So, a few more details:
I have taken the last month to get out and look at land that is for sale in the area I'm wanting to build on.

In certain ways, I don't even know what I'm looking at.

"Phase one" would be to set up the land for homesteading while using my current income to finance the project. I will probably start with chickens and my wife wants to do a permaculture garden as a way of easing ourselves into it. Eventually, my homestead will become my sustenance.

Drilling a well is an available option, but for now, we would have metered and hauled water (already available), while also building a rain catchment system. We can top off tanks with well water if necessary.

supercorndogs · Sep 27, 2021

HiDesertELR · Sep 27, 2021

How's your water supply? Look at your local well drilling data.

stefan73 said:
You can ask USDA about the soil types and recommendations for the areas you are looking at. Water is going to be a big point of concern for you, because that also helps support the carrying capacity of the land you are looking at.

Search for NRCS web soil survey, define your AOI, and run the report.

Web Soil Survey

websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov

Agree with above... Water water water.

Farming on a hill is a bitch.

Clob McStrunk · Sep 27, 2021

You can use some degree of slope to your advantage if you want to go off the water grid. The drop will help with collection and transport

Hobo Hilton · Sep 27, 2021

I have more questions than answers at this point:
1 - How many people will your homestead need to support ?
2 - Do any of your tribe have medical issues (proximity to medical care needed) ?
3 - How many children will need to be educated ?
4 - What homesteading experience do you have ? Watching Youtube does not count.
5 - What building trade experience do you have ? (electrician, plumber, carpenter, concrete work, operate heavy equipment, etc)
6 - How much cash do you have ?
7 - Can you grow a garden currently ?
8- Is your family "on board" with your ideas ?
_____________________________
Considerations:

These are the things I would require:

Unlimited supply of water.
Defendable to a certain degree. Open for discussion.
Locate in an area that has "4 Seasons"
The smallest parcel I would consider is 10 acres... Depending on surrounding environment.
Timing wise the land market is peaking... Can you hold out for better financing, etc?

This should get a good discussion started.

alpine44 · Sep 27, 2021

Naaman said:
Thanks, everyone.

So, a few more details:
I have taken the last month to get out and look at land that is for sale in the area I'm wanting to build on.

In certain ways, I don't even know what I'm looking at.

"Phase one" would be to set up the land for homesteading while using my current income to finance the project. I will probably start with chickens and my wife wants to do a permaculture garden as a way of easing ourselves into it. Eventually, my homestead will become my sustenance.

Drilling a well is an available option, but for now, we would have metered and hauled water (already available), while also building a rain catchment system. We can top off tanks with well water if necessary.

Here is the link to the USDA soil survey. This is a good starting point to assess an area. For the details on your parcel a soil analysis by a soil scientist would be a good investment. Depending on the rules in your state/county the actual survey may also satisfy the requirements for a septic system.

As pointed out before, WATER is going to be your bottleneck in the Southwestern states.

Jgunner · Sep 27, 2021

Where are you looking exactly? I have some background in northern az, specifically the juniper areas.

bluegrasspicker · Sep 27, 2021

As far as the slope vs flat land question with an orchard, be aware of frost pockets.

I have an orchard and a couple of acres of vineyard at my farm. It's on high ground that's gently sloping in a zone-4 to zone-5 region. It would be zone-5, but sometimes WV winters throw you a curveball.

The gentle slope at the vineyard has a low point, where frost doesn't naturally continue down the hill. There have been times when I could see the elevation line where the frost got the young vines close to the ground in that frost pocket, but everything else above that line was fine.

The trees aren't in that pocket, and even if they were I think they'd be OK because they're taller. Your results might vary with a deeper frost pocket.

It's mostly an issue in the spring. The plants get faked out with a some nice weather, put a lot of energy into new growth, then BAM! Start over. In the fall it doesn't really matter since they're going dormant anyways.

Edited: typo

65x55guy · Sep 27, 2021

Neighbors neighbors neighbors, regardless of land location. Most states have publicly available ownership records.

I like the idea of walking the land whenever possible. If the current owner is game, you can also send up a drone to scope out surrounding area or layout as time allows. DJI (I know, privacy issues) mavic 2 drones can fly miles away and you can record the trip so you can review back at home later. $1000 on a good drone is a great investment if you’re about to drop $150-500k on some lifetime land.

chevy_man · Sep 27, 2021

Build in the middle or 3/4 up the hill.

Top of the hill exposes you too everything, bottom of the hill is a flood zone.

Plant some trees to help with windy conditions. Bonus points for buying a place where you can setup your own range. Increase your ammo budget and lower the house budget if that's the case.

GrumpyOleFart · Sep 27, 2021

Always seize the high ground.

HeavyAssault · Sep 27, 2021

Naaman said:
I have taken the last month to get out and look at land that is for sale in the area I'm wanting to build on.

In certain ways, I don't even know what I'm looking at.

Better dig up a few people in the area so you can learn. Penny wise or dollar foolish???

I've done my fair share of searching for land. People will sell you anything you want if they see you coming. Be smarter, learn more, then spend the money.

I missed out on a nice 200+ acres that had one end on the river. I easily could have had a 1k shooting range setup on the property.
I'm still 50/50 happy/sad about it but glad in a way I didn't buy it. I wasn't able to walk it before someone bought it sight unseen. I wasn't going to fall into the Realtor "cash offers pouring in" scheme.

DRandi · Sep 27, 2021

Google maps in satellite view is also very helpful. You can zoom out and very easily see big picture, land slides, flood zones….. is there some undesirable like a landfill two miles down the road…

GrumpyOleFart · Sep 27, 2021

Local knowledge is the key.
Meet and greet some of the locals.
Hardware store owners and local council workers know everything about everything

BCP · Sep 27, 2021

Lots of people doing that out near ash fork/seligman. Be advised there's no water (unless you want to drill a 1000ft well) and the roads are iffy.

HeavyAssault · Sep 27, 2021

Google Earth is decent for a topo/sat overlay of a location gives you fly over style viewing. You got to learn how but it's useful.

candyx · Sep 27, 2021

Make sure its elevated so you can see a long way off if someone in approaching preferably with 360* view.

Californio · Sep 27, 2021

No one mentioned it but a Perk Test, for your septic field.

Easement to the property, make sure you are not land locked.

Proven water, why build and find you cannot access water, water delivery is not a solution.

supercorndogs · Sep 27, 2021

bluegrasspicker said:
As far as the slope vs flat land question with an orchard, be aware of frost pockets.

I have an orchard and a couple of acres of vineyard at my farm. It's on high ground that's gently sloping in a zone-4 to zone-5 region. It would be zone-5, but sometimes WV winters throw you a curveball.

The gentle slope at the vineyard has a low point, where frost doesn't naturally continue down the hill. There have been times when I could see the elevation line where the frost got the young vines close to the ground in that frost pocket, but everything else above that line was fine.

The trees aren't in that pocket, and even if they were I think they'd be OK because they're taller. Your results might vary with a deeper frost pocket.

It's mostly an issue in the spring. The plants get faked out with a some nice weather, put a lot of energy into new growth, then BAM! Start over. In the fall it doesn't really matter since they're going dormant anyways.

Edited: typo

Planting stuff that tends to bud out early in locations that are shady in the winter and spring, then full sun in the summer helps.

I was amazed the first time i saw a first line almost like a high water line.

Maggot · Sep 27, 2021

As mentioned above,

Water, water, water.
Neighbors, neighbors.

Dont buy if you need to tote water to the place, better to save and wait til you find a place with an existing well. that can be worth 10's of thousands in the long run. I dont know the area but the water table could be 500 feet and if you hit a dry hole you still pay. That can add up quickly. Soil on the other hand you can truck in and build raised beds then compost them to keep them fertile. Without water youre quite literally FUCKED.

SmokyJoe · Sep 27, 2021

USDA Web Soil Survey site has good data on soils. Interview some local well drillers for info on where there may or may not be good water and at what depths.

stefan73 · Sep 28, 2021

I would be careful with sloped land. What might be currently dry and solid could easily change depending on drainage, soil type and what is underneath.

tiNdvenTFHwMdqKW · Sep 28, 2021

Gentle slope is ok but it gets annoying when you want to level an area. Flat is best if you are above a flood plain. Never on a hillside or steep slope.

oneshot86 · Sep 28, 2021

GrumpyOleFart said:
Local knowledge is the key.
Meet and greet some of the locals.
Hardware store owners and local council workers know everything about everything

Local barbershop

wildcats · Sep 28, 2021

Always better to be on high ground..build a container house.

Dirty D · Sep 28, 2021

Naaman said:
Hi everyone.

I've got some cash to buy some land on which I would like to slowly start building a homestead. My area is high desert of Arizona (about 5000 feet elevation). Lots of Junipers and other shrubs/ground plants (not much in the way of tall trees, though there are some).

I'm looking at different pieces of land with varying degrees of slope. Obviously, I can grade the land to some extent. Some of my options are more or less flat.

The goal is to grow a few fruits and vegetable, and raise some small animals (chickens, goats, and/or pigs, etc).

What is the minimum parcel size I should look for, and what "terrain features" are most useful or should be avoided?

Thanks for the replies.

Find your local horticulture club, almost every county has one. The type of land you want will vary by climate and lots of other considerations that they will already be familiar with.

wildcats · Sep 28, 2021

Finding water will be another problem in the high desert..drilling to find water can get expensive.

Odysseus1911 · Sep 28, 2021

You do know deserts aren't really the best place to grow things or keep animals alive?

forrestgump01 · Sep 28, 2021

Sam kinison gave some advise years ago on living in dessert and the problems associated with it.
Hope this helps !

Eli17L · Sep 28, 2021

Go small go slow and as flat as possible.
I thought I could do it but the high altitude dessert is kicking my ass. Nothing wants to live and what does live everything wants to eat.
Getting ready to start over with 2 acres (out of my 350) fenced for everything from snakes' to elk. 10' tall and 1/2" hardware cloth at the bottom!
Then a permaculture forest garden.
And FLAT... I tried catching water and it worked great except every rain carried in a billion weed seeds and floods carried out my wood chips.
Whatever zone it says your in drop it 1 do to high altitude cold snaps. Lost all my pecan trees this winter after 10 years of TLC.
I have planted every tree that will feed me and Jujube is the only one that fruits for me consistently. To many late freezes.
Oh and Elk are bastards.

GrumpyOleFart · Sep 28, 2021

My inlaws tried to start a Sandalwood plantation but the kangaroos ate them.
Fuckers.
A mob of kangaroos will annihilate a canola field, just by moving across it.
50 or 60 roos moving at a fast pace, bounding over fences, it's an amazing thing to watch.... unless you have crops in there.
Still, they were here long before us, so who are the trespassers?

Im2bent · Sep 28, 2021

Eli17L said:
Go small go slow and as flat as possible.
I thought I could do it but the high altitude dessert is kicking my ass. Nothing wants to live and what does live everything wants to eat.
Getting ready to start over with 2 acres (out of my 350) fenced for everything from snakes' to elk. 10' tall and 1/2" hardware cloth at the bottom!
Then a permaculture forest garden.
And FLAT... I tried catching water and it worked great except every rain carried in a billion weed seeds and floods carried out my wood chips.
Whatever zone it says your in drop it 1 do to high altitude cold snaps. Lost all my pecan trees this winter after 10 years of TLC.
I have planted every tree that will feed me and Jujube is the only one that fruits for me consistently. To many late freezes.
Oh and Elk are bastards.

You forgot about the birds. Hope you put a roof on there. The fucking birds will eat your shit too. I wanted to grow a couple of tomato plant. yes 2 whole tomato plants. between squirrels (yes godam ground squirrels), fucking rats, mice, horn worms, fucking crows, sparrows, cardinals, and oh I don't know every other fucking thing on the planet its damn near impossible. So built a complete enclosure with a stone floor fully enclosed in 1/2 inch hardware cloth for next season.

Eli17L · Sep 28, 2021

I plan on layers of understory with trees to slow down the GD hawks owls and eagles. I only will grow nuts and fruit and things for birds to eat this time and the birds will be locked up at night.
Another warning my first build had aquaponics set up to grow all kinds of things including wheat for my own breads.
But then I became diabetic and 2 of the kids became celiacs!
Wife and I are carnivore now so new plans are all about meats.

lonegunman762x51 · Sep 28, 2021

USDA soil maps are available for just about every acre of the west, take the time to look at them. Be sure you have the rights attached to your property, mineral, water and timber or whatever else is on the property. It is entirely possible to own 120 acres and someone else to own trees and any underground assets, including fossils and historical junk.

Is water available? Especially in Arizona, if you plan in growing anything you are going to need a source of water. If you are dreaming of a homestead, do you have a defensible homesite? High enough to see your surroundings? Can you build a home with a saferoom or secure second floor?

http://www.icfhomes.com/

We built an insulated concrete form ammo bunker when I was in the ANG, it was a foot thick and 16 ft tall and was a continuous 525ft pour. Once finished if it had been covered with stucco it would have been fairly fireproof and definitely bullet proof. If you added windows and steel shutters it would have been awesome to live in and keep your stuff safe.

MK20 · Sep 28, 2021

Whatever you do, get land with flowing water.

SmokyJoe · Sep 28, 2021

Maybe read Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner and The Water Knife by Paolo Bacigalupi before plunking down your money. Water is life for us blood sacks.

Eli17L · Sep 28, 2021

MK20 said:
Whatever you do, get land with flowing water.

I worry that in tough times all the water ways will become highways again.

Dead Eye Dick · Sep 29, 2021

There’s a lot to be said for occupying the high ground. However it has some disadvantages. The water table is lower and not as stable as lower land. Slopping land is always MUCH more prone to erosion. Now in Arizona this might not be a problem but tilled sloping land is a gulley waiting to happen in any kind of rainfall. Agriculture in sloping land does require plowing/planting with the contour of the land. Asian’s farming in mountainous areas always build and farm in terraces.

Our little farm had terraces but even this did not stop the erosion. Plus, terraces are a headache to work around. Fencing around them takes special care and effort and planning. Otherwise, it is a mess. (And looks really bad. )

Still nothing like walking out on the Veranda and surveying the countryside for miles around.

BAMAboy18 · Sep 29, 2021

I bought, what I hope, is my final home. 6 acres covered in virgin oaks, some have 6' diameters. The end I live on is about 2 acres of flat land then slopes down into a thicket where I have a constant running stream (& lots of deer!), then back up to another flat acre (on which I just installed electric, septic & a water meter for???). I have a 1000' deep well that supplies our water, I could garden if needed (we have a 10x20 greenhouse, a seed bank & a big tiller)
I love this place with the combination, just wish I had more, wish I was younger too!
We shopped 3-4 years and drove 100s of miles until we found this.

forrestgump01 · Sep 29, 2021

GrumpyOleFart said:
My inlaws tried to start a Sandalwood plantation but the kangaroos ate them.
Fuckers.
A mob of kangaroos will annihilate a canola field, just by moving across it.
50 or 60 roos moving at a fast pace, bounding over fences, it's an amazing thing to watch.... unless you have crops in there.
Still, they were here long before us, so who are the trespassers?

Dam , the kangaroos ate your inlaws ! Sounds like a win to me.

roostercogburn98 · Sep 29, 2021

You need at least one hill/slope to make a natural backstop for your range

supercorndogs · Sep 29, 2021

A slope can be an advantage or a disadvantage. ITs kine of like everything else, you need to decide what you want to do, that will inform your decisions. Just like you wouldn't get a bunch of peaches on citation root stock and put them in a late frost desert in full sun all winter, then expect them to feed you for the year. The more research and planning you do before you start, the more time you will save. You want strong trees {in your area} talk to nurseries and orchards in the area, about disease resistant varieties and rootstocks that give reliable production in your area. You also want a fruiting time chart, you don't want everything you have coming ripe at once.

For me I would want a slight slope, that way I could build a good set of swales, and a slow winding water feature.

Its been said already a bunch of times, but water, water, water in the desert. Beware of irrigation canals. Ours has so much herbicide in the water before it gets us, that it will cause visible damage to tomato plants, and slow growing and production across most of our crops. Its also laden with seeds we don't want in our garden, orchard, or cover crop mixes. A well is not s sure thing to give you good water either. It may need filtered to remove some of the dissolved solids.

Dont be afraid to change something that is not working. Don't spend years trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

alpine44 · Sep 29, 2021

Odysseus1911 said:
You do know deserts aren't really the best place to grow things or keep animals alive?

The only things deserts a great for is shooting and dune buggying.

supercorndogs · Sep 29, 2021

alpine44 said:
The only things deserts a great for is shooting and dune buggying.

He says, as I try not to dribble the juice from my Palisade peach on the key board. Its all about planning and placement. Probably most of the best places to homestead in the desert still have a house, farm ground, and/or water rights owned and used. The amount of abandon homesteads I see from the 1930s says you are onto something. Pickens are pretty slim.

Alpine 338 · Sep 29, 2021

Water! Everyone discounts the need for water until you don't have any.

Call a couple local well drillers, and your potential future neighbors, and ask about their experiences with the area you're looking at in regards to wells.

If possible, make an offer on the land contingent on drilling a successful well.

Visit the local County Agriculture Extension office, they have wealth of information, often free booklets and handouts on farming, homesteading, etc. for that County.

Having trouble using the site?

Homesteading: sloped land or flat?

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